My First steps into the soul crushing depths of Vintage
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Deco_y
1 December 2010
1589 views
1 December 2010
1589 views
- Introduction
- What the rules and banned lists mean to me
- Building a deck that doesn't completely suck
- Lands
- Artifacts
- Enchantments, Instants, and Sorceries
- Creatures
- The Deck
- Results
- Conclusion
Back when I started playing Magic: The Gathering in August, I knew very little about the game. I knew it was played by thousands upon thousands of players and known for it's wondrous artwork, but beyond that I was lost. I looked at creatures with their power and toughness like a new language, saw words like vigilance and lifelink and quickly felt overwhelmed. Fast-forward to the present and I have come a long way. I have a fairly sizable collection (3,000 cards) and a reasonable understanding of the game mechanics. Still, after all I have learned in my whirlwind voyage through magic land, there was something I've never been comfortable with. Playing something other then Type II Standard. So, I'm going to start exploring different formats, how they work, and make a deck to do a few playtests against a tournament winning deck and a select Tappedout.net deck. Whether you read these articles for a rush of nostalgia of a time long ago, or if you are new like me and need a hand into other formats, I begin my journey straight into formats unknown. First up is the format that is the leading cause of soul crushing panic attacks for new players: the Vintage format.
WHAT THE RULES AND BANNED LISTS MEAN TO ME-
I start my stroll down vintage lane by visiting the WoTC's website to view the rules. Seems identical to standard really: Be first to eliminate your opponent's 20 point life total or dealing 10 poison counters, and is played between two people. The big ol' glaring difference is that instead of only getting to play with the 2 newest sets(as of this writing: Zendikar and Scars of Mirrodin blocks) and the latest core set(Magic 2011), in Vintage you get to get your grubby paws onto every card ever printed for the game of magic. That total, according to Gatherer, is 11,491 cards. You know, I do get quite a generous amount of time for my article cycle. However, I do question the notion of it being worth searching through an entire 11,000 card database... we'll see. The other major addition to the rules category are the banned/restricted lists. Banned cards cannot be played at all, and for restricted cards, you may only use 1 of each card, so no using 4 black lotuses in a row. Starting with the banned list, Amulet of Quoz is interesting, Bronze Tablet sounds like a really fun card, and Chaos Orb brings to mind the legend of the tournament finals player who tore his Chaos Orb into pieces and threw it into the air, covering his opponent's field. The whole ante mechanic doesn't appeal to me so i'm glad Wizards beat it in the face with a Lava Axe. Shahrazad would be wicked fun in casual though. As for the restricted list, the standard Power 9 bu****it exists (Ancestral Recall, Time Walk etc.) along with some others. As a standard player, seeing Demonic Tutor beside Diabolic Tutor makes me start to realize just how powerful some of these cards are relative to some modern counterparts, and why they're banned. You also notice how Vintage is almost meant for Blue. So many bah-ro-ken cards for Blue Mages to draw from, with black is a close second. Necropotence is a card I never knew existed until today, and wow, such a ridiculous card. I want one. I want one so badly. After sitting under some waterfalls meditating, carrying boulders up mountain sides, and some power yoga, I came to the conclusion I wanted my Vintage deck to be a B/U deck.
BUILDING A DECK THAT DOESN'T COMPLETELY SUCK-
**Now, before I get into this particular section, I'd like to point out how I spent a good 2 hours just going through the LANDS that can be used in Vintage. This can be very overwhelming very quickly for new players(like me). The best advice I can possibly give is don't be like me. Look anywhere and everywhere for a player who lives near you or even someone you know on here or elsewhere on the internet that can help you get started. I jumped in head first and I found out there is only 6 inches of water. This is not the way to do it. If you cannot find anyone, either try harder or go online and search up some tournament winnings decks. If you want to either copy or pull a Johnny and make a variation, all power to ya. For experienced players it's different because veterans have played with these cards for a while, just like how years from now we'll probably be making Jace decks(my soul washes over with anger for whoever wrecks another format with this card) for Vintage.**
I looked over my friend Dave's reanimator deck and I must say, as a new player, it is complete bu****it and broken for the most part. This deck against any kind of standard deck(other then heavy U control) would sprinkle salt on it and wash it down with a cold glass of Bud, or children's tears, or whatever evil decks drink. With my Vintage deck, I don't have anything close to an idea about which decks or what combos work or what mana curve works, I'm going in completely fresh. I don't expect to be that successful, I just want to be a Johnny and hopefully I make a virgin vintage deck that I can be proud of. That said, OF COURSE I'm incorporating as many restricted cards into my deck as possible, as they're restricted for a reason. They rock out with their c*** out.
Starting with the aforementioned lands, I incorporated as many duel lands as possible, finding as many duel lands that could give me both kinds of mana without being tapped. I ended up with x4Underground Sea, x1Lake of the Dead, 2xReliquary Tower, 4xRiver of Tears, 4xSunken Ruins, 3xSwamp and 2xUrborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth for a total of 20 lands. Urborg are there so I can sacrifice any and all of my lands for Lake of the Dead. Pairing this up with my forthcoming spells and I am assuring getting something like 5-7 mana will be a common occurrence early and very often. You can also say it's guarding against some obscure strategies(Blood Moon I'm looking at you) as well, but that's me trying to sound smart, which I try to force down as many throats as possible. Giving my deck some flavor(another reason why I have River of Tears, awesome name) is a big part of why I'm making this deck as I am.
These should come as no surprise to anyone who knows classic magic artifacts, as they are 1xBlack Lotus, 1xMox Jet, 1xMox Emerald, and 1xSol Ring. Mana, more mana, and a dash of mana acceleration. I'm holding off on any other artifacts because they're simply not my style(Yes, I have an infect deck based around one, and also a Smelt deck, but at least that one destroys them >:0). I know I should probably include all of the Mox's, free mana is free mana, but I don't want to. Call it dumb, call me an idiot, blah blah blah. Deal with it.
ENCHANTMENTS, INSTANTS, AND SORCERIES-
This will honestly probably look like the exact restricted list but I couldn't help myself. I've never gotten to use any of these spells before, so I am going to use my gosh darn whatever amendment right to use them. Off the restricted list, I have 1xNecropotence, 1xYawgmoth's Bargain, 1xAncestral Recall, 1xMystical Tutor, 1xVampiric Tutor, 1xDemonic Tutor, 1xPonder, 1xTime Walk, and finally 1xYawgmoth's Will. Joining this select company is a play set of, in my opinion, the two best counter spells in existence: 4xMana Drain and, well, 4xCounterspell. Rounding out my magic spells, what kind of B deck that has access to them, but won't use them? In goes 4xDark Ritual to round out the section.
I started off with wide eyes and a tall frosty beverage when I started shifting through the over 2,300+ creatures that could be played in my deck. After many refills and the odd break(you know, work and sleep), I got to the end of page 25 and I said **** it. I couldn't take it anymore. I screamed uncle. The bags under my eyes matched a raccoon. My ears bled fear and wither terminology, and I could not bring myself to give a damn about Chimney Imp. I just couldn't. I went through any and all monsters that could be summoned with 5+ CMC and that was good enough. I won't have mana problems, and I want a fast deck, so with these creatures I narrowed it down to a paltry 50 creatures, then to 41, and finally to 32. These are the choices that will probably determine how well my deck will do. Do I go with beat sticks to smash face? Do I go with more abilities? Well I won't know until I try so let's try. For my blue creatures I decided on 4xBody Double and 3xGuile. Body Double should give me flexibility to play another of my creatures and I love love love Guile's versatility to play anything my opponent would throw at me for free(especially if I mana drain a fatty, you cannot spend 2 mana better folks). My black creatures were much, much, much harder to decide, but I ended up with 3xDemigod of Revenge and 2xDrana, Kalastria Bloodchief. To end it off I threw in some standard spice with 2xUlamog's Crusher and 1xUlamog, the Infinite Gyre.
Vintage experiment
Vintage
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So onward bound I am, taking on all challengers, or really, just my friend Dave who has a Reanimator deck he actually uses for Vintage tournaments. We held two rounds, and safe to say I didn't win. I went 0-2 and 1-2, with my only win coming on the back of Guile while having a Mana Drain and a Counter spell in my hand. It was pretty rough going from knowing every card(in standard) to having to stop the game and reading what every card he played does. There is just a beautiful flow in these classic Vintage decks that are tried and tested that this deck just cannot compete against. Yea the cards in theory are good and proper, but making a deck that flows as well as these older ones will take a while. All in all for my first deck with no experience, I say this experiment can be a moderate success, though I don't necessarily like getting my face smashed by Akroma, Angel of Wrath over and over again. If Dave gloats about winning with him one more time, this will be my last article because I'll either be in jail, or on the run, holding a "Will play magic cards for food!" sign and attacking cars coming out of McDonalds drive-throughs for chicken nuggets.
CONCLUSION-
In my humble opinion, Vintage just isn't for me, at least not yet. Some of these decks are ridiculously good, I admit, but these are expensive to build. While Dave used his actual deck, mine was comprised of mainly proxy cards(other then all my Type II cards in it) and there is no way I'd actually pay that much money for Mox anything, Black Lotus or any of the banned/restricted cards. I'm not ruling out getting into it in the future(if I get rich) but as of right now I'm Type II till I die. Vintage is arguably the best format around, as it requires more knowledge about the game and a greater deck building "spidey sense" that I just don't have yet. This will come in time and I'm not worried, but as of right now I'm still too new and not familiar with enough cards to dig deep and get in. For other new players, I'd recommend that you stay away from Vintage until you know what you're doing and know many more of the cards. For veterans of the format, I hope you enjoyed laughing at my feeble attempt at entering your stomping grounds. Until my next article, may Baneslayer protect you in your sleep and may Storm Crow guide your days. If any of you tappedout users wish for me to give your favorite format in a future article, sound off in the comments.
KrazyCaley says... #2
What Tapanmeister said. Sadly, you can't just throw in every broken card and make it work. There still has to be a power idea behind it even in vintage.
I, personally, am no fan of Vintage. Legacy is ok, but I am vehemently opposed to Black Lotus ever being allowable. Broken cards are broken.
December 1, 2010 5:14 a.m.
I agree with tapan. Instead of spending so much time ogling the the banned/restricted list you might have been better off using the internet and/or your vintage playing friends to figure out what the major archtypes, combos, ect. in the format were and what the key cards you needed to make them work effectively. You also didn't utilize your sideboard to well. Your buddy was running reanimator and you knew this. Why didn't you run Leyline of the Void , Bojuka Bog or card:Tormod's Crypt or any number of other black cards that allow you to exile stuff from their library?
December 1, 2010 10:42 a.m.
I won't beat the horse (ie your deck) too much since tapanmeister pretty much covered it, but I will add that starting at the mana base is NOT the way to go.
In vintage you're best off breaking the deck into three peices. First, the engine. Second, the, the win condition the engine drives. And third the mana base to drive the engine.
And you probably want to develope them in that order.
A win condition can set the terms for the engine if you have one in mind, but win conditions are fairly plentiful. Either way, mana bases are absurdly versatile in vintage/legacy and thus can be tailored to the needs of the deck. Worry about them last.
In the "don't feel too bad" department: I doubt any vintage/legacy deck has won a tournament of note in the last 10 years that didn't have at least 6 months of solid playtesting and tuning backing it up at some level. And the average is probably more than triple that (one of the nice things about the environment is it is pretty stable, so while the deckbuilding choices are tougher you have longer to decide).
The bottom line is that this is an environment that is 142% about synergy. And not just "peanut butter and chocolate" synergy. You need "put a man on the moon" synergy. Or to put it another way not just obvious synergy but unfathomable depths of synergy that have immense amount of thought, consideration, and careful study put into them.
It's an environment where 50 cards could fill a role for your deck, but only 1 of those cards is the correct choice for the role and yet could be completely wrong in a deck that's maybe 6 cards different than yours.
To be honest...you probably have to be a bordering on legally insane to consider building original and competitive decks in this format.
The last thing I want to say is just a bit of advice: For those who want to get into building decks in these formats you need to start by reviewing a variety of successful tournament-winning decklists. Get a feel for the archtypes that are prominent and choose one to experiment with. Take your favorite decklist from your favorite flavor of that archtype and personalize it by looking at every card in the deck and deciding if you think it is the best card to fill that role and replacing it if the answer is no.
Then playtest until you realize how much worse you've made it and try to figure out why it's worse. When you finish or get stuck just pick a new decklist, flavor, and/or archetype and repeat.
Eventually you notice patterns in your choices that differ from patterns in the choices of succesfull deckbuilders and if you're sharp you'll pick up on why they're choice is better. Only by analyzing how and why they think about the environment differently can you catch up to them and you have to catch them before you can pass them.
December 1, 2010 10:48 a.m.
hey guys, go easy. The article is about a noob playing a new format. and while there are failings I think he did well on a first attempt. Master deckbulders and players in vintage have knowledge of cards, deck archetypes, and playing that takes years to develop.
Also, why is everything always boiled down to whether something is a good "competitive" deck or not. MTG is a game. Games are played for fun. Casual players exist all over.
December 1, 2010 12:53 p.m.
exarkun809 says... #6
For a guy who is afraid of even attempting a Vintage deck (EDH/Legacy is about as adventurous as I get), I found this to be great. I've only played casually since Alara, and have little to no grasp of the cards before Lorwyn besides the ones most commonly discussed.
It's nice to see someone take a fun stab at it just for sh*ts and giggles. Well done.
December 1, 2010 1:44 p.m.
jacelightning says... #7
I think you did a great job showing some one like me (who has never played vintage) some of the complexity of the format, but I would have like to seen you grab a decklist from an event (ala the Vintage world championships at GenCon) and looked at that deck vs yours after your playtesting. I think it would have rounded out the article quite well, but over all great job attacking a difficult format.
December 1, 2010 4:57 p.m.
ilikeoldcardsbetter says... #8
I wanted to up squire1 's comment, where'd the little heart go ?
December 1, 2010 9:31 p.m.
@ilikeoldcardsbetter - not really sure. People were not using it that much. Yeago might have ditched it
December 1, 2010 9:43 p.m.
SocialistElite says... #10
Caley. Lets be honest. You don't like Black Lotus because it isn't blue.
December 1, 2010 10:31 p.m.
Lol @ last comment.
Nice Article. Interesting how things didn't go quite according to plan for the deck. But like standard, playing vintage requires knowledge AND trial & error. I mean, who has built their first ever deck and won every game they played that day?
December 1, 2010 11:19 p.m.
@Squire1,
I honestly don't think he did bad for his first foray into the format.
But if he is trying to go for casual I would probabyl change that assessment. His picks off the banned/restricted list made me think he was going in a competitive direction. That's kind of where I was coming from with my comments.
I have nothing against the casual players and honestly as someone who has been there and done that with vintage, legacy, and extended I tend to think I have a sharper appreciation of casual and it's finer points.
So please don't let me discourage anyone!
December 2, 2010 11:30 p.m.
I actually started as a Vintage (casual) player. It wasn't until recently that I started to get into Standard. Going in this direction, I met the opposite problem: I felt constricted by the card limits!
December 3, 2010 1:23 a.m.
I loved the article, great job! The reason it's such a good article is because you and many other people learned a valuable lesson. Your article provided a lot of help to a lot of people I'm sure. Personally, I prefer legacy over vintage (I am in love with Ponder and refuse to run only 1 (in legacy it's not restricted)) but vintage is nice too.
My only criticism is on the lands you chose. For dual lands, my favorite are from shadowmoor/eventide which you had (Sunken Ruins ), but my next favorite would be from ravnica/guildpact/dissension. Lands like Watery Grave because then if you NEED it that turn just pay 2 life (in my opinion 2 life is not that much) but if you don't need it that turn then you got yourself a dual land for the next time you need it. Also, I really like the Zendikar dual lands like Jwar Isle Refuge because they can save you sometimes but that is personal preference.
December 7, 2010 2:02 a.m.
For a noob, you sure spent a helluva lot of money on some of those cards. My Legacy deck does just fine without the dual lands and moxes. There is a limited quantity of those and they're really expensive so I just suck up the fact that someone with more money and motivation has them and do my best with what I have. THAT is the spirit of Legacy or Vintage. Actually playing with the cards you own and having fun. Not giving plasma and blood to afford cards that are better than your opponent's. Try a theme next time.
December 8, 2010 6:02 p.m.
Nevermind. I read the first half of your article and got so frustrated that you put in those expensive cards I just had to make a comment. My bad. Yeah, just remember, Legacy and Vintage are tough to play in so make a deck that you like and have fun playing.
December 8, 2010 6:11 p.m.
I enjoyed this article. Like you I'm still fairly new to the game, though while i have no interest into diving directly into vintage, I often find myself looking at cards from Lorwyn, ravinica, or Alara and thinking "If only I had played then."
Just recently I constructed a fairly cheap Esper deck ($40-50) to use when my FNM spot goes extended every now and again. It's certaintly not the best deck on those nights, but damn it all Master Transmuter plus big sphinxes like Magister Sphinx is a hell of alot of fun.
tapanmeister says... #1
To quote Apocalypse Now; "I don't see any method at all". You decided to use the restricted list as a template for a vintage decklist, but its honestly not what defines a vintage deck. They still have archetypes! Everything else you run is what matters! So for example: you aren't running card:Mishra's Workshop, which means you didn't want to go for some workshop aggro variant (maybe with Lodestone Golem as a finisher]], yet you have a bunch of vulnerable, expensive creatures with the bare acceleration vintage provides. This deck doesn't have Stax's signature Smokestack , so its not stalling. What does it do? Its too creature heavy/sweeperless/Moat less to be keeper, and it isn't using Burning Wish and card:Lion's Eye Diamond for a lethal turn 1 Tendrils of Agony , which is why Force of Will is always run over counterspell. There is no vintage list without that card. Where is the degenerate combo? No Panoptic Mirror - Time Walk / Time Warp shenanigans? And Mana Drain 's greatest application is with x spells: things like Mind Twist and Stroke of Genius come to mind.
So I think the lesson here is what absurdity are you going to do with 12 late cast creatures who, even with all your lotus and mox acceleration, don't come out faster than a Tinker 'd Darksteel Colossus ? You could go reanimator as well, dumping the demigods in the 'yard with Buried Alive or Entomb . Or you could cut down to a few really good creatures and play a set of Oath of Druids .
Long story short: the other cards in your list actually have to be synergistic for an effective Vintage list. Nevertheless, its good to see such a spirited step forward into one of the most degenerate formats. I look forward to you abusing Tezzeret the Seeker and Time Vault as frequently as you may abuse Mimic Vat in Standard. Welcome to Vintage.
November 30, 2010 4:15 a.m.