Turn to Frog targets Phyrexian Crusader and the Wild Defiance trigger goes on the stack, followed by the Turn to Frog . The stack resolves as normal with Turn to Frog resolving, followed by the Wild Defiance trigger, so you end up with a 4/4 blue Frog creature until EOT.

Yes?

I'll let others answer too before I reveal the answer lol.

I will point out that during the process of casting a spell or activating an ability, nothing goes on the stack until that spell/ability does. Any abilities that trigger during the casting/activating process wait until after the spell/ability is completely cast/activated before they can be put onto the stack.

Overall, good article. Your links to SCG and TCGplayer are broken, though.

Grrr thanks for that notice. I'll repost those links when I get to a PC again.

Epochalyptik

This I don't believe is the case. How would counterspells work if that were true?

Or, for an example possibly closer to the question posed by Ohthenoises, what about Vapor Snag targeting Phantasmal Image ? I know from experience in tournaments that if you target the Image with Snag the trigger from Image goes off first and then the Snag fizzles without legal targets, so the controller of the Image does not lose the life. I feel like this instance is a direct parallel, is it not?

EpochalyptikAh, I seem to have misread your statement, so I withdraw the statement about counterspells, however I still feel that my Phantasmal Image example is valid.

nope... Wild Defiance is a triggered ability. when turn to frog targets the Phyrexian Crusader its the same as targeting a Phantasmal Image . just like the Phantasmal Image would be sacrificed because it was targeted, the Phyrexian Crusader would get a bonus from Wild Defiance before Turn to Frog resolves, which would leave it as a 1/1 blue frog creature till the end of turn.

here's another... in a multiplayer game you enchant an opponent's creature with Curiosity for "political" reasons. when the creature deals damage to a player other than you, would you draw a card? or would the creatures controller draw a card?

Hey hey hey BrianH369. Use the links I gave you. Use the rules book and use gatherer.

You would because you control the enhantment? I'll admit, I know nothing of multiplayer rules since I don't play EDH or Two Headed Giant regularly.

And you're right about the Image thing. For some reason I got how the interaction worked, but then at the very end I mixed up which trigger was triggered and which was the spell, lol

gheridarigaaz actually you're not right. Go through layers again.

I guess with what epochalyptik said:

-"Any abilities that trigger during the casting/activating process wait until after the spell/ability is completely cast/activated before they can be put onto the stack."-

so the triggered ability Wild Defiance gives happens after Turn to Frog resolves... which would make brianh369 correct.

but doesn't that mean we've all been doing the whole Phantasmal Image /Phantasmal Bear /Phantasmal Dragon thing wrong?

No you're looking at it wrong. Look at layer 7 and go through the steps.

613.3. Within layer 7, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the order described below. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. (See rule 613.6.) Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a sublayer. (See rule 613.7.)

613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities that define power and/or toughness are applied. See rule 604.3.

613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.

613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but dont set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.

613.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changed from counters are applied. See rule 121, Counters.

613.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creatures power and toughness are applied. Such effects take the value of power and apply it to the creatures toughness, and take the value of toughness and apply it to the creatures power.

power and toughness are set as 2/2... Phyrexian Crusader

then

power and toughness would be modified to 1/1 by Turn to Frog

then

power and toughness would receive a +3/+3 modification by Wild Defiance

so it would end as a 4/4 blue frog

Ok, so I did a little reading on layers, and it seems to me that as of the rules change in Magic 2010, it doesn't even matter which is applied first because the creature is receiving +3 +3 until end of turn either way. So, yeah, you do end up with the 4/4 Frog.

"Second, there has been a redefinition and rearrangement of sublayers B, C, and D. In the previous rules, temporary p/t effects like Giant Growth could be overwritten by abilities like Sorceress Queen, but at the same time abilities like Glorius Anthem would still get to effect the creature. This distinction made it difficult to explain to players, and was all-around confusing. The rules have been changed to go more in line with how Sorceress Queen's original text read; Power/Toughness setting abilities now only effect the actual numbers written on the bottom right of the card (or in the case of copy effects, what ever the copied value is) and then all other effects are added onto the top of that."

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=judge/article/20091105a

Good job everyone! Just remember that you can do this for ANY rules questions.

... did I get the Curiosity thing right? lol

Turn to frog does not modify p/t it sets it but essentially you have the right idea.

You tell me?

oh yea... I think :P... now I'm questioning my own knowledge of the rulings... I'm pretty sure your answer was correct.

if it would cause the other player to draw cards Curiosity would have to say

enchanted creature has "whenever this creature deals damage to an opponent you may draw a card"

...similar to the soulbond clause on Tandem Lookout , except an opponent's creature would be an illegal target in that case hence why it doesn't happen that often

4/4 Blue Frog. It's not that complicated.

Phyrexian Crusader gets targeted, Wild Defiance triggers, and the creature (whether or not Turn to Frog resolves first or second) gets +3/+3. That creature keeps its +3/+3 boosteven if its Power and Toughness are set to something else, because it's an added bonus given to the permanent for that turn.

Setting P&T to a set number doesn't negate any bonuses or boosts.

It's the same thing if you would cast Turn to Frog on a Llanowar Elves with Trusty Machete . Its P&T are still going to be 3/2.

Zandl that's why I said to those who DON'T lurk the Q&A. For some of us it's easy but for others it's harder. Layers is one of the harder things to learn in mtg. Also, that's why I used a 2/2 in my example, I wanted them to be right for the right reasons.

There are a lot of players like myself who have been playing since alpha who are still used to the old way of doing things. In a lot of the old rulings setting something's p/t overrode any boosts so there is a lot of conflicting posts out there.

I lurk in the Q&A, but I don't really know all that much in terms of rules knowledge. I mostly just add on to answers to cover more specific instances of when that ruling might come into play.

I don't know anything about layering, or whatever. I only started playing a few years ago, so I never knew any different.

I encourage you to look at the rules PDF. There's a lot to be learned from it.

There's too much to be learned from it.

I used to run Turn to Frog in my u/b zombie deck to specifically stop Mirran Crusader SoWaP or not. Worked wonders. As such I got a LOT of experience with layers because I had to. I still find layers the hardest thing in Magic to deal with. Sometimes it gets so unbelievably complicated especially when you playing edh with 15 people and there are p/t modifiers flying around left and right. Kinda feels like a game of Munchkin at that point.

... the ctrl F thing just probably saved my rear for my upcomming finals...

Oh, I knew this one! A group of friends and I all play a playset of Turn to Frog in our sideboards as a little in-joke gimmick sort of thing. If we're having a bad game, they come in to make the game a little more fun. I still say there is nothing funnier than a delver player hitting a Primeval Titan with a Turn to Frog and then flashing it back with Snapcaster Mage to hit a Wurmcoil Engine . I had to specifically look this up a week ago, and now I feel cool for knowing a little bit about layers.

If anyone (ever) has a complicated layers question, please feel free to post it on my page and I will answer it.

:-)

Count mafteechr as the judge or fiend here? lol

I'm studying for my level 2 exam, and layers are a big part.

Also, I love layers.

I got into a fight with a judge about layers with Turn to Frog and won. (Mirran Crusader with Sword of War and Peace equipped)

Interesting. Now I have a question for you that has stumped me for a while but I feel might be along the same lines.

Say I have a Tree of Redemption (0/13) equipped with Slagwurm Armor (+0/+6) and my life is at 10. When I use my tree's ability, what will my life total be and what will the tree's final toughness be?

I'm thinking it would provide me with 19 life and the tree's toughness would be 10 (+6 for the armor). But I'm not sure if I would instead have 13 life and a 0/16 defender or what.

Thanks for the great article!! :)

You have 10 life and a 0/19 Tree of Redemption before.

After Tree of Redemption 's ability resolves, you have 19 life and a 0/16 Tree of Redemption .

Tree of Redemption 's ability checks the toughness of the creature, not the printed toughness. It also doesn't override buffs from equipment, enchantments, or global effects.

Useful information and great article! Layers are a bit hard to understand, as I started out playing in 1994, quit circa 1999, and started again in 2010. It boggled my mind when i found out that mana burn no longer existed lol. If you follow the order of the stack, look at the wordings carefully on the cards, most complicated rulings can be resolved. I dig the Ctrl+F function.

Ctrl+ f makes it so easy to find rules. It's really good for editing your binder here on tappedout if you have a big binder and can't search through manually.

Binder? My naivete precedes me... Is this the trade binder?

Yes

another method to learning the rules that I have found VERY helpful is to go to judge.wizards.com and set yourself up an account. Take the Easy Practice under "Exams" and try to answer the questions. The pool of questions is huge so you almost never get the same question each exam! Any that you get wrong, they give you an exact ruling on it underneath your answer. Using this method, I learned alot, and that while I knew alot about effects, stack priority and layers were my weak points. I have taken the Easy Practice maybe 6-8 times and only got over 80% once. Hope this helps!

Great article Ohthenoises :)

gheridarigaazthe curiosity would let you draw the card, as the term "you" is referred to the player who is casting the aura...so in terms of political use, yes, casting a curiosity on let's say primeval titan would be like us giving a contract to france in WWII and when they attacked russia we got the praise....

NICE analogy Inces_Velus!

thank you :D I thought it was a great idea!

Best politics ever: Heartless Hidetsugu + Furnace of Rath . Me: "go ahead, TOUCH me, if you do we ALL lose."

....I have 21 life...HA I win with 1 life....rounded down...I take 10 times 2...I have 1 life BEEECHES

Still good politics lol.

pssshhh I get my life to an odd number, my politics win...sure....tap him XD

HAHA it's really hard to get an odd total if you haven't got one before Furnace of Rath hits. The fun little "combo" is casting a Comet Storm targeting the odd totals for 1 each then activate him. Or adding lifelink, lifelink is boss.

lifelink is not boss...deathtouch and first strike or deathtouch and ping creatures are boss XD

pordigal pyromancer + onyx mage = DESTROY EVERYTHING!

Goblin Sharpshooter + Basilisk Collar hehe I know what you're saying.

I still say that the best win more tactic is just ezuri and elvish archdruids....toss in copperhorns for fun bur the overall style just rapes face

sorry bout the lack of links, my comp with this slow of internet makes it so that when i click check post, that it says something is wrong... oh well XD it works for what i need it to

It's cause something is misspelled. f you spell it correctly it works.

no, it says something is wrong, but then my comp freezes....yaaaaa

you mentioned the whole trample + deathtouch thing... well i get that in my deck so i would like to know the ruling on it. all i have found in my meanderings is people on both sides arguing and you really seem to know the rules.

In the rules PDF the entry concerning deathtouch states that "any non-zero amount of damage dealt by a source with deathtouch is considered lethal damage" the entry for trample states that "once lethal damage has been assigned you may assign the rest of the damage to the defending player" now if you combine the two trample doesn't care how MUCH damage is assigned as long as it would be lethal. Deathtouch makes even one point lethal so according to the rules of trampleoutou may assign one damage to the blocking creature and the rest to the player because the one point is still considered lethal damage.

To add on to what Ohthenoises is saying, that works even if the creature in question is indestructible. You need only assign 1 damage from a deathtouch-having creature, then can trample the rest. The fact that the indestructible creature doesnt die doesnt matter to the trample; it was still lethal damage when it was assigned. It was just ignored because of the indestructibility mechanic.