Great article and I have a good question to ask (might be simple but lets see!) my mate had an Outrider en-Kor and Task Force with Miren, the Moaning Well . I cast a Wrath of God and he said that he could pay 0 'infinitely' to target the Task Force with the Outrider en-Kor and then sac it with Miren, the Moaning Well to gain 'infinite' life. Now I know that the infinite part has to be a number but that is not the issue. Can he pay 0 say for example a 1000 times without any damage acually aiming at the outrider to abuse the situation like this? My thoughts are no chance!! but i am not sure... Please save me!

My personal favorite question is "Why are layers important to a Player?"

A lot of times the layers of abilities and effects seems pretty irrelevant because they are a "hidden mechanic." Effects that set the P/T of an object obviously would have to come before effects that alter the P/T of an object even without a specific rule regarding their order of application.

I've asked this to a couple of different judges and received answers which have nothing in common with each other... it would be nice to hear an expert opinion on the subject.

Here's a question which I've personally been wondering about: Why is CR 611.3c important? Does it have to do with the creation of effects which are determinant on a creature's P/T when it enters the battlefield like Pandemonium or Mentor of the Meek ? If so, why are P/T altering effects not applied to a creature after it enters, but before SBA's and triggers checked? I've always understood the rule; however, it doesn't seem like it's the most elegant solution available.

To answer Maiden's question:

This has nothing to do with Layers. Outrider en-Kor can target Task Force as many times as it wants and Task Force's triggered ability will increase it's Toughness by 3 for every time it is targeted. When everything is done resolving (Let's say he did it 1000 times) then Task Force would be a 1/3003 creature and the next 1000 damage that would be dealt to the Outrider en-Kor would be dealt to Task Force instead. Prior to Wrath of God resolving, he can activate Miren, the Moaning Well to gain 3003 life (or whatever value he wants).

that just seems retarded...cheers man. wasn't sure if this affected layers or not sorry :-P

Here's a common one still in standard. Turn to Frog on a Mirran Crusader equipped with Sword of War and Peace .

@Ohthenoises

Your Mirran Crusader will be a 3/3 with no protection or double strike, but when it deals combat damage, Sword of War and Peace will trigger.

@Ohthenoises: In this case, your Mirran Crusader would be a 3/3 blue Frog. Since the inherited protection from Sword of War and Peace and the ability-removing effect of Turn to Frog both apply in layer 6, they are applied in timestamp order. Sword of War and Peace gives the Mirran Crusader protection and then Turn to Frog removes all abilities of Mirran Crusader .

In regards to the P/T of Mirran Crusader , P/T setting effects are applied in layer 7B while buffs are applied in 7C. Therefore, it will become a 1/1 and hen get the buff from Sword of War and Peace .

Note that since the hit-a-face ability of Sword of War and Peace is an ability of the sword and not actually inherited, the creature will still cause this ability to trigger if it hits a player.

@jkarnes

First, Pandemonium will trigger when a creature enters the battlefield, but doesn't check power until the ability resolves.

Second, if Mirran Crusader enters the battlefield while you have Honor of the Pure and Mentor of the Meek on the battlefield, then Mentor of the Meek does not trigger, as Mirran Crusader has 3 power when it is actually on the battlefield.

The reason it is that way is because it is a static ability that is applied at all times, meaning (in the example above) that creatures never exist on the battlefield without the pump. Mentor of the Meek checks the power of the creature when it is on the battlefield, not on the stack, thus the trigger takes into account the pump.

Hooray! More detailed answers!

Mine will be brief (because I may be answering many), but am happy to expand if needed (unless awesome people do it on my behalf, apparently).

And here comes the most common argument mafteechr "but the triggered ability is on the creature"

Epoch already covered it but you will get that "answer".

Yep, quite true!

Seeing as you are dealing with static effects there are the rare cases of ye old Heartless Summoning "I can respond before the static pump is applied" of which to be aware.

And that is addressed in my response to jkarnes.

Yup just the other direction concerning a +1/+1 rather than a death. In your presentation were you going to focus more on examples of standard play or eternal formats?

The most interesting and complex interactions are eternal, and since I'm talking to a bunch of judges, I'll like hit on those (and Standard if they come up).

I think the issue of Dominating Licid not working under the current rules is very interesting. Because control-changing effects are layer 2, but type-changing effects are layer 4, the "enchanted creature" phrase in the ability text refers to no object when layer 2 is applied (because the Licid doesn't have the aura subtype at that time), so the creature it's attached to doesn't move. I first learned about this from a comment by L3 Eli Shiffrin in the discussion section of a Cranial Insertion article.

I understand how the rules work, I was asking a different question. Perhaps I phrased it poorly... let me try again:

Question 1: Why is CR 611.3c important? I understand the current implementation but why are P/T altering effects not applied to a creature after it enters, but before SBA's and triggers checked. Does it just make extra steps that would complicate the rules or is there a different reason?

Question 2: Why are Layers important to players? There's no questioning why layers are important to the Game, but why do players need to know about them? I could never find a reason why (other than that it's good to know the rules).

The answer to your Q1 is basically that it makes the most sense in the context of the natural language of the cards. If an effect says "creatures you control get +1/+1", then it doesn't make sense for there to be any span of time where you control a creature, yet somehow it isn't getting +1/+1.

The answer to your Q2 is because layer interactions happen often enough in everyday games and formats for it to be important to know. Most of the time they're very simple, but they're still there. Even playing M12 booster draft you could have easily come across Turn to Frog , which has been a feature card in a great many layer-related questions I've seen over in the MTG Q&A section.

I agree with Rhadamanthus.

EDH can be a very casual format with casual players, yet it is the format where layers come up most. Having at least a basic understanding (or a quick sheet to refer to) really makes the game smoother. Plus, the rules exist to keep the game fair. Knowing how layers work ensures they are applied fairly.

Also, when you have 15 players all applying static effects to the field at the same time it gets REALLY wonky.

Ok so if you are making a pie for dessert and put a chocolate layer on the bottom and a white chocolate layer next and then a fruit layer.... and finally a crumb topping... how do you keep the layers from mixing together?

Hey there! I'm no judge. I'm just a guy that loves to play Magic for the fun of it. To me the rules of Magic make the game so much fun. I think one of the best, well funniest, layering situations is where an earlier timestamp effect gives something that a later timestamp takes away. Say you have an Elite Vanguard out and you then cast a Levitation then a Magebane Armor . You Then equip the Elite Vanguard with the Magebane Armor . Timestamps say that it will not have flying. To me this is whole situation is just funny to think about!

Taken directly from the wizards website:

"In play there is a Grizzly Bears which has already been Giant Growth ed, a Bog Wraith enchanted by a Lignify , and Figure of Destiny with its 3rd ability activated. I then cast a Mirrorweave targeting the Figure of Destiny."

We all know that they are all named Figure of destiny and all are Kithkin aside from Bog Wraith which is a treefolk. But what do their P/T become?

Grizzly Bears becomes a 1/1 in layer 1 thanks to Mirrorweave , and Giant Growth is applied in 7c. Thus, it is a 4/4.

Bog Wraith becomes a 1/1 in layer 1 thanks to Mirrorweave , then becomes a 0/4 in layer 7b thanks to Lignify . Thus, it is a 0/4.

Figure of Destiny was originally a 1/1, then it's second ability set the P/T to 4/4 in layer 7b, then it's third ability set the P/T to 8/8 in layer 7b.

What! i am disappointed... topic says that ANY layers question will be answered.... and yet i get none :(.

You have to wait until the layers are cool before assembling your cake. Otherwise the melting chocolate will mix and cover the fruit. Layers of spongecake are a great way to separate fillings.

A tasty, tasty answer.

The first time i ever found out about layers was when a card:Black Sun's Zenith for 2 was used to kill my Strangleroot Geist that had a +1/+1 counter on it.

this i think would make an interesting point: -1/-1 counters USUALLY cancel out +1/+1 counters, allowing things like Strangleroot Geist to trigger undying a second time. you could explain how putting two or more -1/-1 counters onto it simultaneously will not only kill it, but stop it from undying.

@Phobophile

This really has nothing to do with layers, but much more about state-based actions.

If Strangleroot Geist has a +1/+1 counter on it and someone cast card:Black Sun's Zenith with X=2, then as card:Black Sun's Zenith resolves it will place 2 -1/-1 counters on Strangleroot Geist . Then, state-based actions are checked, and the game sees two things: a Strangleroot Geist with a +1/+1 counter and 2 -1/-1 counters on it, and the same Strangleroot Geist with zero or less toughness. These are processed simultaneously, and at the next moment, Strangleroot Geist is in the graveyard; it never exists on the battlefield without the +1/+1 counter, thus the game sees that it did, in fact, have a +1/+1 counter on it, and Undying will not trigger.

CR 704.7 was created to address this:

704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent's last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed. Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.

wow, this is giving me another whole look at how to play MTG... i know this is a little off topic but is there any judges practice tests that i can take?

Of course! Go to judge.wizards.com and you can take some Easy Practice exams, plus the Rules Advisor exam!

thx a ton man. I don't know even close to enough about interactions to become a Lvl 1 but I suppose i have to start somewhere...

dammit, ive lost my DCI number... havent played in a sanctioned event in so long, any way to get it back?

Check the info here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/activationfaq

I'm kinda new here and have been playing magic casually for sometime, but I don't know layers. That being said I think I have a layers question. If I have Wild Pair and Mighty Emergence on the field, when a creature like Meglonoth ETB, would I be able to search for another creature with total P/T= 12 or P/T =16?

This isn't really related to layers; these are both ETB triggered abilities. Continuous effects are what layers are used for.

In this case, you choose. Since you control two abilities that triggered simultaneously, you choose the order in which they go onto the stack. Also, when a spell or ability requires information from the game (such as the P/T of a creature), it determines that information when it resolves.

Therefore, you can control what happens. If you stack the Wild Pair ability below the Mighty Emergence ability, you will put two +1/+1 counters on Meglonoth , then search your library for a creature card with total P/T 16. If you stack the Mighty Emergence ability above the Wild Pair ability, you search for P/T 12.

Thanks! I guess I'll work on the layers thing, but knowing this kinda makes Wild Pair a Little more versatile.

I have a standard layer question: If an opponent has Intangible Virtue on the battlefield and I enchant them with card:Curse of Death's Hold and they cast a card like Gather the Townsfolk , which effect will be applied first?

Since both effects modify P/T without setting it, they are both applied in layer 7c. You will apply them in timestamp order, so the older of the two will apply first, then the newer. The ability-adding effect of Intangible Virtue is applied in layer 6.

I assume you're asking because you want to see if state-based actions will kill the 1/1 tokens if card:Curse of Death's Hold applies before Intangible Virtue . This is not the case; SBAs don't check halfway through the layer system because they would be ignoring ongoing effects if they did so. SBAs take into account ALL continuous effects being applied.

I forgot to ask: How did everything go at your seminar?

Very well! I had a super awesome Powerpoint planned, but then we couldn't get a projector, so I had to go without one.

I successfully explained the three cases of Humility and double Opalescence without visual aids. I got numerous compliments the next day from judge/players in the GP.