I've always been a fan of Mindshrieker , even built a deck around him: Mindshrieker Is An Archetype. Not sure if he'd fit in here but could be worth a look, doesn't do much milling in the early game but could probably be bigger than card:Jace's Phantasm and mill more in the late game.

Worst thing about it is that it mills one less card than Nephalia Drownyard for the same mana, but it gives a nice, yet somewhat unreliable body.

Can you explain your disregard of Duskmantle Guildmage ? You can pay 3 mana, then the 0 cost ability from Jace to Mill 10 and deal 10 damage.

I don't understand why you mentioned card:Grafdigger's Cage when it doesn't have much to do with Codex Shredder at all. I never really paid much attention to the shredder, but I see that it can be quite valuable in a mill deck.

Otherwise, good work! This agrees with a lot of the numbers in my mill deck. I would have put in one Sands of Delirium , though, and I have Devour Flesh s as well.

I'm wondering the same thing . . . the Codex Shredder returns a card from your graveyard to your hand, not the battlefield, so I see no restriction. In fact, I'd think that an enemy's card:Grafdigger's Cage would actually aid your Codex Shredder , considering the fact that anything you mill cannot be cheated back into play or flashed back.

Wow, that was a great analysis (and criticism) of my deck! Thank you, KrazyCaley. I just got on T/O for the first time since I reminded you of this article, so I have some catching up to do on comments. But first, I have a few reactions to your edits that may give you or other views insight into my choices and reasoning behind some of the cards:

1. Paranoid Delusions and Duskmantle Guildmage (the mill cuts) -- two cards that have definitely under-performed in my testing. Paranoid Delusions is OK, but you're completely right about the cipher mechanic. It doesn't trigger too often. Duskmantle Guildmage was in for an early blocker if I needed it, and some big late game damage with Mind Sculpt . Though they clearly are not the *best* choice to run in this deck.

2. Jace, Memory Adept -- I've gotten many responses (mostly "why aren't you?") from not running this in my deck, and it's primarily due to budget. I could add in two, but I wanted to keep this deck as cheap as possible. Also, I was half-hoping to prove that Jace isn't necessary in a mill deck. I'm unsure if I will try to acquire him for the deck.

3. Hands of Binding -- Agreed to your point about cipher that I've mentioned above. Although it did help versus aggro decks (at least in my playgroup) -- I'm willing to debate this card more if anyone's interested

4. Essence Harvest and Lazav, Dimir Mastermind -- These two were really cards that were for the "If this works, it'll be awesome" idea, but I can definitely see removing them. I guess it really depends on the game.

5. Mind Sculpt -- One card I'm not sure if I'll part with yet, but like Hands of Binding , I'm open to further discussion

6. Codex Shredder -- I've always underestimated this card. I've never really seen its potential, but definitely something I will consider and hope to get feedback on. In fact, I think it was suggested to me and I wasn't very inclined to add it.

7. Dreadwaters -- It seems like too much of a late-game card to me, but hey, it's worth playtesting!

8. I've definitely forgotten cards to respond to, but I hope that there will be many discussions regarding their additions.

Thank you again KrazyCaley for this analysis! I hope that the discussions that arise from this article will greatly help me evolve my mill deck, and help others create their own mill decks!

@ dream_cast -- I don't think the Guildmage is a bad card, but it's a little late game for this deck. By the time he's able to be used to his full potential, there are much bigger cards you'd want to be playing. He's also at a significant disadvantage for being a 2/2.

@ http404error & Kravian -- I agree, I think Codex Shredder is a valuable card, and that card:Grafdigger's Cage can only be at an advantage in mill decks(well, unless you want to use flashback or something).

ducttapedeckbox I think I recommended Codex Shredder to you! :P

Heh sorry :P I'm still hesitant about it, but I've loaded the deck into Cockatrice for some play testing later, I'll be sure to let you know how it goes!

Well Codex Shredder proved helpful in the few games I played. It might be going in!

Well Codex Shredder proved helpful in the few games I played. It might be going in!

I've been playtesting a slight variation to this deck (Mill to the Death if you want to check it out), and I'm noticing that against heavy creature decks such as werewolf decks (e.g. Wrath of the Moonborn) and Boros aggro decks, this deck just dies. All the control spells can't keep up with the sheer amount of creatures on the battlefield and the damage that's behind it. Naturally we have less concern about token generation because of Illness in the Ranks , but for straight up creatures I'm wondering what a solution might be.

One idea I had was AEtherize , but this doesn't really solve our problem; it only delays them for a turn or two. And we can't use good board wipes like Supreme Verdict given the double white cost, so I'm thinking that this deck needs more mid-game focus. I'm not sure what exactly to put in, but it definitely needs a reliable card that synergizes with mill.

Lazav, Dimir Mastermind comes to mind, but you make a good point that it's pretty gimmicky. Jace, Memory Adept is a very good turn 4 drop that can really throw your opponents for a loop, but again if they're running heavy creatures you can't do much to stop them from just outright killing Jace. In short, I'm kinda stuck.

Of course, KrazyCaley DID put in Coerced Confession for just this purpose, but it's 5 mana. By the time you get to play this (that's taking into account the time to draw it and time to get 5 mana free), they've already surged ahead on the battlefield, and while drawing 2 cards while milling them 4 is great, you have to draw Cyclonic Rift to even have a hope of catching back up.

Ideas?

P.S. life gain?

Killing Wave comes to mind as a boardwipe, but since you're a mill deck they might not be all that worried about losing some life to keep their critters.

There's also Mutilate and Barter in Blood , not much lifegain though.

yeah killing wave might be good because while this deck is mill heavy, it has the ability to kill the opponent with damage too. I don't know though because you're right: they would probably not object to paying 8 or 9 life to keep their Boros Reckoner and Aurelia, the Warleader alive...

@Goody - Mindshrieker is a really interesting card, but I always felt like it either demanded its own deck, or demanded to go in an card:Illusionist's Bracers deck.

@dream_cast - That is indeed a combo, but what about all the times you draw the Guildmage WITHOUT having Jace available? I think most of the time a straight mill card is going to be a better value.

@http404error & Kravian - Good point, and my error. I think my brain has marked card:Grafdigger's Cage with "this means your graveyard won't do anything," because that's the effect it most often has when I see it used. But some cards that mess with the graveyard, like Codex Shredder , don't care about it at all. Good catch, and it makes Codex Shredder that much stronger.

@ Weikarczaena - Aggro is probably going to be this deck's biggest problem, which is why I did indeed put in Coerced Confession , which strengthens it there. However, the Confession does nothing about the fact that you're taking hits to the face. The best I could do there was go up to 3x Cyclonic Rift and add in 4x Grisly Spectacle , which I feel will make the deck competitive enough to wins some matches against aggro. Really this deck is going to have its best matchups against control decks, though.

@Goody- I'm not a fan of Killing Wave ; I tend to look down on cards that give the choice to your opponent, especially in this deck, where as you suggest, they will probably be quite happy to pay life. Mutilate is probably not a reliable idea in this deck even with Watery Grave ; Mutilate is really best for mono-black decks. Barter in Blood might need to go in in place of Grisly Spectacle if the deck gets too badly hosed by aggro matchups once it gets out in the field.

Finally, @ducttapedeckbox -

re: Jace, Memory Adept - I sympathize with both your budget issues and your distaste for running such an obvious card. For serious competitive play, though, it's hard to argue against the guy; ten cards EVERY turn for five mana once is really hard to ignore.

re: Hands of Binding - No doubt it will help you against aggro decks. But one thing I tell a lot of people building Magic decks is that you can't try to make your deck good against everything. Otherwise it ends up being meh against everything. It's always been my philosophy to pick your deck's idea and then commit to it with gusto. You'll have rough matchups; you'll always have rough matchups, but you'll have fewer if your deck REALLY commits to its idea rather than trying to handle too many problems at once. This is not to say that flexibility isn't a GOOD thing, but you have to walk a fine line or you'll compromise your deck's effectiveness against EVERYTHING. To paraphrase U.S. Grant, don't worry about what the enemy deck is going to do to you, worry about what YOU are going to do to the enemy deck.

re: Mind Sculpt - Like I say in the article, it's a fine card. The question is, is it a BETTER card for your deck than alternatives? I think other cards make more sense, but reasonable Magic players can certainly disagree. Playtest, playtest, playtest, and if you find you prefer it, put it right back in.

re: Dreadwaters - I'm strongly in favor of having 4x late game mill cards in some combination. Mill needs a late game finisher; it cannot live by milling a few cards here or there alone, believe me on that. I put 2x of each in there because Mind Grind is completely face-wrecking against matchups that can't stop the spell from resolving. For those that CAN, you need Dreadwaters instead. Again, your mileage may vary. Play with it and see what you like.

re: Codex Shredder - This card is awesome. I've run into it a few times and I've actually become kind of scared of seeing it.

re: KrazyCaley I don't know, I guess it depends on your play style.

I really do think once you've got about 4-6 mana available you should be able to really start denting an opponent's life using the guildmage.

I liked the idea of Mind Sculpt and Thought Scour as cheap spells to play after guildmage's ability.

Then you have further pros:
If Consuming Aberration is in play, it will trigger it's ability causing further discard.
If you have a Jace then it's good news.

I'm still not sure about Cipher, it looks good, but a gamble.

I did want to ask while I'm here, why does everyone seem to have such distaste for Increasing Confusion?

In your analysis did you ever consider Crypt Ghast as a way to make Mind Grind do more work and to minimize the effect of using Nephalia Drownyard on the same turn you would want to play a spell? Also, extort is a great way to keep in the game while milling and the effect that doubles mana applies to Watery Grave as well. (Swamp type.)

@dream_cast: Increasing Confusion is a good card, but it does have a weakness. The fact that it's only effective in the graveyard makes it less of a desireable choice, and in this deck (since you're not self-milling) that means you have to either dump a lot of mana into a spell that doesn't do much at first, or you DON'T dump a lot of mana into it and waste a spell. Either way it sets you back a turn. In other words, it's not as worthwhile as Dreadwaters which can mill for just as much as Increasing Confusion, but it costs a lot less.

@Ohthenoises - Solid suggestion. I'm perhaps too paranoid about creatures dying, especially ones that are essentially part of a combo that doesn't work without 'em, but the Ghast could put in work.

I took some of your ideas and threw together a rough draft here: memory-what-memory, I personally don't like Consuming Aberration all that much as most times he immediately eats removal without making an immediate impact on the game. (To make an immediate impact you would need to have enough mana to cast something else on the same turn and lots of times that's just not viable.) So I'm running Lazav, Dimir Mastermind instead because as a 3/3 hexproof for 4 he is pretty good but he can improve.

Why not use Devastation Tide as your sweeper? It works sooner and for cheaper than Cyclonic Rift, especially on that miraculous turn 4-5 when the aggro is getting out of hand. Worst case scenario we sweep back a jace, some phantasms, and a couple of Codex Shredders. With jace and shredder we can drop and apply immediate pressure (which they cannot do with un-hasty creatures) and our Jace's Phantasm are incredibly cheap, and probably will drop boosted anyways.

This was an awesome write up. I'm inspired to make a mill deck!

Have been struggling for a solid mill deck for awhile now in the hopes of using it at the recent Gameday standard event, however, in all the testing I did with the one I put together which seemed well on paper, it just petered out and couldn't stand up against my black/white tokens nor my black/white exalted during playtesting. Yeah it had the potential to mill, but just couldn't seem to get 4x Consuming Aberration or 3x Jace, Memory Adept out fast enough and what I was able to mill just wasn't enough to slow them down or to really amount to anything. Jace's Phantasm and Fog Bank I kept swapping in and out but they just never seemed to work well enough for the threats that were on the board. The phantasm I found wasn't very effective until you hit 10 cards in their graveyard, and unless you could do it fast enough you didn't really want to use him as a blocker cause then you wouldn't have it when you did hit 10 cards.

Someone had suggested using Metropolis Sprite instead, though I've been contemplating Vampire Nighthawk, granted he's 3 cmc but he does make them think twice about attacking unless they can destroy it before hand. Plus he does net you a little life gain.

After seeing some of the ideas with this deck, I'm going to try and impliment some of them into mine Codex Shredder & Cyclonic Rift to see if there is a way to make mine more effective. I liked the Duskmantle Guildmage when I first saw him and thought he had potential but he ONLY really works if you can combine him with Jace or with the Aberration. I felt he really was to costly mana wise, as I would have enough to activate him or cast a spell not both. I still would like to get him to work, but I'm not sure how best to yet and really be able to survive and keep him alive. If we still had cards like Glimpse the Unthinkable and Traumatize then I might reconsider him.

My biggest issue though is with the Sideboard (as I don't play standard very much) I get the idea of it but my question is, what do you swap out for when you swap in? I'm assuming generally you don't want to touch the mana base when sideboarding, so do you swap out certain cards that a. you didn't get to, or b. you felt had no effect the previous game?

With regards to the Devastation Tide, I think it's due to the fact that it's a dead card for several turns if you draw in your opening hand, plus with it being a sorcery you can only do it on your turn and to use it for it's miracle cost it could hinder your plans that turn, as I believe you have to decide to cast it after you draw it, thus you couldn't go through several phases, then be able to cast it afterwards and still only pay the miracle cost.

I know this is a stupid question but why is Codex Shredder such a good card. I see it tapped and put one card in graveyard. I don't see how you can mill 5. Again i'm not saying it can't i'm just not seeing it. haha. Someone explain so I can put this bad boy in my deck!

Also from what I've seen Trepanation Blade is awesome on Invisible Stalker

@BamaMagic52 - I meant that you use it for five turns, milling five cards, and then return it for some awful mill spell. You can indeed only mill 1 per turn.

So you're using it to mill yourself?

No, you use it on the opponent to mill 1 card of their deck every turn. Once it's turn 5 or later and you have 5 mana available, you can sacrifice it to bring back from the graveyard any of your mill spells that you've already used.

Nope, Codex Shredder is a great T1 play. On your first turn you play it and tap to mill one card from your opponent's library. It may not seem like much, but it can make a difference in games. I've Mind Grinded until they had one card left, and used Codex Shredder for that last one. That instance was just a pure coincidence, but hopefully it helped explain its use. By the time you're ready to sacrifice it to reuse a big spell, such as Mind Grind, you've milled 5-7 cards. For one mana. I don't think that's bad at all :P

wow! I need to start using all of my brain. For some reason I was thinking you could only bring back the cards you mill on yourself. First off I'm an idiot haha...Now I see that card is seriously nasty.

I never thought about it until their article either, but it allows you to run 1-2 copies of a heavy-hitting spell, and have your opponents see it 3+ times in a game.

It's nasty I remember pulling 2 out a 4 random boosters I bought and I was pissed... Like really? this is one of my uncommons? haha

@ducttapedeckbox - Exactly. Mill for 1 every turn is very eh, but mill for 1 every turn and recur some awful 20-card-milling spell for 5 is EXCELLENT.

@ BamaMagic52 -- I opened over a dozen RTR packs and didn't get one. After I realized how badly I wanted them, I was pretty mad. Thankfully they're cheap and plentiful in stock at my LGS!

@ KrazyCaley -- I didn't realize its potential until this article, so thank you again for that! It's probably my favorite card to see in my opening hand for that deck. I also have a small request of you. I've noticed how lined up you are with your articles, but would you be willing to check out a deck of mine? Nothing to the extent of an article, but just a few pointers? You don't have to take the time to put a lot of detail into your explanations, I could probably figure out your reasoning (unless it's something kinda out there: P). I'd greatly appreciate it, but please only when you have some time. The deck is called Perfection of Extortion. Thank you again for this article and the extremely helpful insight into my deck!

@ducttapedeckbox - Lookin' now.

I took a bunch of your ideas and altered my own mill deck: Drain Bamage!. I found that if I use Crypt Ghast I can power out Mind Grind for insane amounts. The B mana lean also allows me to use Mutilate as a sideboard option for aggro decks. Also, Extort allows you to stay in the game for longer so that you can accomplish the goal.

KrazyCaley, mind taking a look at my mill deck? Haven't gotten a chance to play it at FNM yet and want some feedback: Science of the Mind.

Doing so now.

I like alot of the cards in this deck, it seems like a very solid reliable build, i may have to make it and try it out, i do want to try and make a control deck at somepoint, I'm working on an aggro mill deck atm, something a bit more aggresive with multiple win cons, if you had any tips that would be great Blue/Black Aggro Mill

Sorry got the wrong thing typed there it was supposed to be Blue/Black Aggro Mill >_<