Can't believe I missed this....got to see some SpyParty though haha. Are the three decks on T/O?

yep

Euthyphro

The Lurker at the Threshold

The Whisperer in Darkness

What's with the scrub cards in these decks? Surely you know there are better alternatives to a lot of the cards you put in these decks, right?

@Ashnard -

Sphinx's Revelation instead of Opportunity and Wasteland Viper instead of Sedge Scorpion have been mentioned. Viper is strictly better; thought it was rotating. Revelation I'm more dubious on for the one deck it goes in, for reasons expounded on in the stream.

Not sure what other scrub cards, as you say, you find problematic. Enlighten me?

lol. that video's funny

For starters, Wasteland Viper is NOT rotating. You're thinking of Ambush Viper .

Secondly, here is a list based on those three lists:

Sedge Scorpion

Divine Verdict

Opportunity (Given this is in a W/U deck, this counts)

Akroan Horse

Stymied Hopes

Claustrophobia

Griptide

Grisly Spectacle

Inspiration

Codex Shredder

All of these are cards that, for the most part, the community at large as deemed "obvious limited fodder" and/or have obviously better alternatives.

i completely disagree with Codex Shredder . it mills one but that's not the important part. its the part that brings cards back. like a jace or a mind grind. also, while i agree with some of the others, it would do you good to learn some respect.

i completely disagree with Codex Shredder . it mills one but that's not the important part. its the part that brings cards back.

You're thinking of a different deck. While everything you just said is perfectly applicable to the Eggs deck Conley Woods put together, it is not applicable here. The recursion ability is far too slow to bring back anything meaningful without effectively giving your opponent an extra turn (because unlike said Eggs deck, you don't have the mana to retrieve it AND cast it).

and unlike his eggs deck, this is standard.

That doesn't change the fact that it's still useless in Caley's mill deck. For all intents and purposes, Tome Scour is a far better substitute.

its not useless. he has so many kill spells that he is able to stall the game long enough to cast a big mind grind, survive another turn and recast it. now, i'm not saying you're completely wrong as i have never tried playing with codex shredder but until you do as well, try to refrain on such harsh comments. oh, and if you have played with it before and in caley's deck, please share specific examples.

What kill spells? The only 2 good ones he has in the deck that are actually reasonably costed are Hero's Downfall and Far / Away . Against really any aggro deck, he'll be dead or close enough to that by the time he cracks the shredder for a kill spell that it won't matter.

uhh... dimir charm is also a good kill spell for aggro. and Omenspeaker has 3 toughness. that can stall for a bit. besides, its useless after you cast it

You know what's a better kill spell? Doom Blade .

you know what better about dimir charm? it gives you choices.

this can go on forever let's just end it now before it escalates to a new level. besides, like i said, you can only give perfect advice if you've played it in person. alright?

Ok then, I'll make a video of it being beaten to a bloody pulp if that will satisfy you.

well then both of you guys better be trying your hardest to win.

(talk is cheap lol)

oh and its not about satisfying me. its about helping caley with choices so... but don't worry and be happy right?

You know what will be terrible in a world run by Whip of Erebos? Doom Blade. Inspiration is decent because its an instant speed alternative to Think Twice, Divine Verdict is bad but there's no really juicy white removal right now to replace it with. Akroan horse is just a token machine, its not bad if you aren't aggro. Anyway, if Erebos the god is as well played as I think he'll be, the one upside to Sphinx's Rev-gaining life- won't be important at all. I agree that there could be some changes, but you don't have to be rude about it.

You know what will be terrible in a world run by Whip of Erebos? Doom Blade.

You know what's not a good aggro color right now? Black.

Inspiration is decent because its an instant speed alternative to Think Twice

You know what's better? Divination and Quicken . The decks I've played against that DO use cantrips use those and not Inspiration.

Divine Verdict is bad but there's no really juicy white removal right now to replace it with.

If you're looking for white removal that's actually GOOD, there's Celestial Flare ,Banisher Priest , Angel of Serenity , and Spear of Heliod . If you want white removal that surpasses just Divine Verdict, we also have Arrest , Martial Law , Pacifism , Planar Cleansing , Renounce the Guilds , Smite , and Soul Tithe . There is seriously no excuse to be running something as bad as Divine Verdict, and I'm sure if the author here had taken the time to use Gatherer, he would feel the same way.

Akroan horse is just a token machine, its not bad if you aren't aggro.

Yes it is. It's Assemble the Legion except it takes away the one thing about it that was good. Against aggro, those chump blockers are going to do next to nothing to stop your opponent.

Anyway, if Erebos the god is as well played as I think he'll be, the one upside to Sphinx's Rev-gaining life- won't be important at all.

Out of all the Theros games I've played, I've only seen one where Erebos was actually played. Given that, I highly doubt he (or really any of the gods for that matter) will see the kind of play you think they will.

Now that the video has finished uploading, here is how our author's The Whisperer in Darkness deck fairs:

I also plan to post the video results of the other two as well.

well, you can't exactly say codex shredder is bad if you don't leave it in to test second game... also sounds like you know the other guy...

anyways, thanks for the time and effort and i'm sure kaley will express his own opinions as soon as he sees this.

I actually didn't know the other guy at all. He really was just the first person to enter the room. The only reason we talked at all is because I felt I had to explain that the game wasn't starting right away because I had to open Camstudio.

As for Codex Shredder, why run it game 2 when there are better things to run in the sideboard? Besides, the cure was far more useful anyway (despite being another scrub card).

alright whatever. just try not to be the next zandl... if ya know what i mean

No, I don't know what you mean. Is it because I'm posting videos? Because it's not like he owns video posting.

@ Ashnard - Yeah, I'm aware Wasteland Viper isn't rotating; when I made the deck I was not. Strictly better, will fix that if I roll that way. Whether the community agrees with me or not, I think some of these cards are very nice, at least for the roles they fill in the deck.

Re: the cards.

Sedge Scorpion - Dealt with.

Divine Verdict - I agree that this is hardly ideal, but can think of no superior replacement in a green/white/blue deck that's creature heavy, other than maybe some weird piece of green removal, which seems even worse. I'm not about to run Supreme Verdict in that deck, obviously, but would like a bit of spot removal. Should there be no spot removal, or is there a better card than Verdict to fill the need? Definitely open to suggestions here.

Opportunity - Strongly disagree here. Sphinx's Revelation is a poor fit for this deck because it is not the usual U/W deck with a bajillion mana sitting around and nothing to do with it. This is a midrange deck, and it is very mana thirsty. I prefer the low cost of the Opportunity , given that. I may be wrong, but I do intend to at least start the deck out with Opportunity over revelation.

Akroan Horse - Yeah, no argument here. The fact that this card got thrown in there probably means that mono-blue is not a great idea.

Stymied Hopes - Really strongly disagree that this is a bad card, at least in certain very common circumstances. It might be argued that it's a sideboard card, but Force Spike for 2 with scry is a powerful effect against a LOT of decks, at least ones that exist in the current environment.

Claustrophobia - Better idea for a mono-blue deck? I'm not sure there is one. But the point thus probably is "why did you build a mono-blue deck?"

Griptide - Why is this bad? Seems extremely strong in the deck, at least as constructed, especially when you have recurring mill.

Grisly Spectacle - Do not prefer the dubious Doom Blade to it, but a better kill spell might be a good idea. I do not like Doom Blade as a kill spell for this upcoming environment. Black creatures are reasonably scarce in standard right now, but I do not necessarily believe that will remain the case after rotation. I don't want to have run the black self-hate card in the sideboard, either.

Inspiration - Better card draw idea?

Codex Shredder - I'm with Tempest on this one; I think this card is great. Tome Scour seems like the terrible card to me rather than Shredder. End step sac, pick up anything is powerful. Given that it often mills 5 on the way to doing that at least, it seems considerably better than Tome Scour . I am satisfied with the targeted removal in the deck. You can dismiss Dimir Charm as a "scrub card" if you want, but I am convinced that its advantages outweigh those of Doom Blade . Dimir Charm 's additional utility and fine performance against aggro compensates for not being removal against bigger stuff. The good vs. aggro angle also enables me to run some of the more expensive removal that you don't like, like Grisly Spectacle , although I think you have a point that that might not be the best card for that slot. I don't think it's Doom Blade either, but it may well not be Grisly Spectacle .

I have to say I am unconvinced by the video. I've playtested that deck (and various previous incarnations of them), and each of the three decks, in about 20-30 best 2/3 matches so far, and even that I don't consider to be a very good sample size, and would not draw any permanent judgments based on that amount of play. (otherwise I'd be SO PSYCHED about the mill deck right now). A 60 card deck needs a LOT of matches played to properly evaluate, in my opinion.

What I'd like to hear from you is WHY you think the cards are bad, and WHY you think the other cards are better, which I kind of got out of the discussion with Tempest, but not really. I was sad to see "the community thinks these cards are bad." Maybe so, but why do you think the cards are bad? If it's a scrub card, what makes it such?

Sedge Scorpion - Dealt with.

Running Wasteland Viper instead of this is not "dealing with it". It's replacing a scrub card for another scrub card. If you're really at a loss for better green 1 drops, then Experiment One and Elvish Mystic are the first to come to mind.

Divine Verdict - I agree that this is hardly ideal, but can think of no superior replacement in a green/white/blue deck that's creature heavy, other than maybe some weird piece of green removal, which seems even worse. I'm not about to run Supreme Verdict in that deck, obviously, but would like a bit of spot removal. Should there be no spot removal, or is there a better card than Verdict to fill the need? Definitely open to suggestions here.

I just gave you 9 options (4 of which are actually good) that are better. Should you need the list again it is as follows:

• Celestial Flare
• Banisher Priest
• Angel of Serenity
• Spear of Heliod
• Arrest
• Martial Law
• Pacifism
• Smite
• Soul Tithe

Really strongly disagree that this is a bad card, at least in certain very common circumstances. It might be argued that it's a sideboard card, but Force Spike for 2 with scry is a powerful effect against a LOT of decks, at least ones that exist in the current environment.

This is a card that is at the top of your curve and does not finish the game for you. Given this, it seems clear that you merely running implies that you're expecting the game to go past turn 6 with this deck. Past turn 6, Revelation is better. The only excuse to run Opportunity is that you don't have access to white and this is the closest thing to it that you have. I'm sure you can go on TCGPlayer.com and search for decks that have White and Blue in them which play Opportunity and NOT Revelation, but you won't find many (or any) results.

Stymied Hopes - Really strongly disagree that this is a bad card, at least in certain very common circumstances. It might be argued that it's a sideboard card, but Force Spike for 2 with scry is a powerful effect against a LOT of decks, at least ones that exist in the current environment.

Yes, and Syncopate still is that plus it retains its usability in the late game which Stymied Hopes cannot do. The mere fact that you're trying to reach the late game in the first place is all the more reason to run it as it doesn't become a dead card then. I can't tell you how many times while playing your deck I hoped that Stymied Hopes was a Syncopate so I could actually counter whatever spell they were playing.

Claustrophobia - Better idea for a mono-blue deck? I'm not sure there is one. But the point thus probably is "why did you build a mono-blue deck?"

Actually, I'm going to concede that this card is runnable in that deck simply because it's the only reliable way to get devotion to blue for Master of Waves and Thassa.

Griptide - Why is this bad? Seems extremely strong in the deck, at least as constructed, especially when you have recurring mill.

It's Azorius Charm for 4. That's why it's bad.

Grisly Spectacle - Do not prefer the dubious Doom Blade to it, but a better kill spell might be a good idea. I do not like Doom Blade as a kill spell for this upcoming environment. Black creatures are reasonably scarce in standard right now, but I do not necessarily believe that will remain the case after rotation. I don't want to have run the black self-hate card in the sideboard, either.

The following is a list of black creatures that see consistent play in a Theros standard environment:

Desecration Demon Lifebane Zombie *Rakdos Cackler

The rest may see occasional play, but nothing consistent. If they do pop up, though, you still have the Hero's Downfall to work off of. In any case, not being able to target those creatures is a very reasonable price to pay for removal that costs 2 less.

Codex Shredder - I'm with Tempest on this one; I think this card is great. Tome Scour seems like the terrible card to me rather than Shredder. End step sac, pick up anything is powerful. Given that it often mills 5 on the way to doing that at least, it seems considerably better than Tome Scour .

Think about it this way: Would you rather have Lava Spike or a red spell for 1 red that deals the opponent 1 damage over 3 turns and cantrips? Keep in mind that the deck you're putting these cards in is not control (much like your mill deck no matter how much you may believe in the contrary).

I have to say I am unconvinced by the video. I've playtested that deck (and various previous incarnations of them), and each of the three decks, in about 20-30 best 2/3 matches so far, and even that I don't consider to be a very good sample size, and would not draw any permanent judgments based on that amount of play. (otherwise I'd be SO PSYCHED about the mill deck right now). A 60 card deck needs a LOT of matches played to properly evaluate, in my opinion.

Then by all means log yourself into Cockatrice so I can show you myself. I assure you that your mill deck plays the way it did in the video against pretty much every deck.

3rd response is for Opportunity, not Stymied Hopes. I got flustered while writing the post and accidentally left the wrong quote there.

Banisher, Celestial Flare, and the Sun Spear are straight up bad cause this isn't mono white. Getting 2 white symbols is the problem. And arrest? What will that do against creatures like Obdezat? What about any static effect creatures? Gods? Archangel of Thune? You suggested more scrub cards bro. Those aren't ever good. Azorius Charm is also conditional, although in a blue black deck I would have to say it doesn't work. Codex Shredder is like Forbidden Alchemy over time, even though you can get literally anything back (upside). And if we're really going at it, can Experiment One allow trample creatures to do more damage? Is it a combat trick? Can it hold back a Kalonian Hydra? I think not.

Banisher, Celestial Flare, and the Sun Spear are straight up bad cause this isn't mono white. Getting 2 white symbols is the problem.

The fact that you think what you said is a legitimate problem is hilarious. There are still enough dual lands to assure double white on turn 3.

And arrest? What will that do against creatures like Obdezat? What about any static effect creatures? Gods? Archangel of Thune? You suggested more scrub cards bro. Those aren't ever good.

The last 5 weren't suppose to be good and I said only 4 of the ones I actually suggested were good. The last 5 were simply to prove a point that, even among scrub cards there are better options than Divine Verdict.

Azorius Charm is also conditional, although in a blue black deck I would have to say it doesn't work

1.) It is not conditional by any means. No matter what deck it is in, it is never a dead draw.

2.) I never told him to run Azorius Charm. I told him that Azorius Charm for 4 is bad and it still is.

Codex Shredder is like Forbidden Alchemy over time, even though you can get literally anything back (upside).

Maybe if you mill yourself it is, but that's not how the author was intending to use it. Additionally, it requires 5 mana to retrieve something which more often than not means you have to effectively skip your 5th turn. Since you probably didn't know this, skipping even 1 turn against aggro is often tantamount to suicide.

And if we're really going at it, can Experiment One allow trample creatures to do more damage? Is it a combat trick? Can it hold back a Kalonian Hydra? I think not.

This isn't draft. You don't just throw creatures in the deck to "leave behind for defense" unless you're control. The deck he is running the scrubby scorpion/viper in is a midrange deck and wants mana ramp to reach the fatties he intends to end the game with.

The first statement I addressed was SO wrong, that I feel I have to make this little chart to show you what happens if you try to play any of the kill spells you said were a problem to cast.

• Game 1: Banisher AND Flare on curve
• Game 2: Neither on curve
• Game 3: Banisher AND Flare on curve
• Game 4: Baisher AND Flare on curve
• Game 5: Neither on curve
• Game 6: Neither on curve
• Game 7: Banisher on curve
• Game 8: Banisher AND Flare on curve
• Game 9: Banisher AND Flare on curve
• Game 10: Neither on curve

Over half the time the deck was perfectly on curve for casting those spells. Granted a 60% success rate is still bad, let's make a better mana base to cast these spells

The mana base is as follows:

• 4 Hallowed Fountain
• 4 Temple Garden
• 4 Breeding Pool
• 4 Temple of Mystery
• 3 Selesnya Guildgate
• 3 Azorius Guildgate
• 2 Plains
• 1 Forest
• 1 Island

Now let's see how the success rate changes

• Game 1: Banisher AND Flare on curve
• Game 2: Banisher AND Flare on curve
• Game 3: Banisher on curve
• Game 4: Banisher on curve
• Game 5: Banisher AND Flare on curve
• Game 6: Neither on curve
• Game 7: Banisher AND Flare on curve
• Game 8: Banisher AND Flare on curve
• Game 9: Flare on curve
• Game 10: Banisher AND Flare on curve

See? 10% failure rate. Therefore, I can conclude that the problem isn't that it's difficult to reach double white on turn 2, but that you and the author here seem to have no idea how important color fixing is (especially when it comes to a 3 color deck).

I don't really get where this whole "wasting turn five" thing is coming from? Sure the shredder takes five to recurr, but you can sac it on an opponents turn and leave the mana up to counter stuff if things go badly. More than likely there won't be anything you want back till later in the game anyway. I also think that griptide is going to see more play than you think. In decks that don't run u/w, the best way to get rid of creatures bestowed with creatures is to tuck them and then mill one with a shredder. If you hit them with your spot removal they still get that Boon Satyr or whatever.

I don't really get where this whole "wasting turn five" thing is coming from? Sure the shredder takes five to recurr, but you can sac it on an opponents turn and leave the mana up to counter stuff if things go badly.

Because that's a turn you can use casting Jace, Memory Adept instead. Also, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the deck has 3 counterspells. Yeah, fat lot of responses you have there.

I also think that griptide is going to see more play than you think. In decks that don't run u/w, the best way to get rid of creatures bestowed with creatures is to tuck them and then mill one with a shredder. If you hit them with your spot removal they still get that Boon Satyr or whatever.

No it won't because it's Azorius Charm without the utility for 4. I don't know how many times I have to say it, but that's just bad pricing. Decks that don't run W/U will accept this and just find a different solution entirely.

Also just flat out killing the enchanted creature or the creature with bestow yields the same result (because the bestow creature is still a creature when it's attached).

quick note: a bestowed creature is not a creature. when it enchants another creature, it becomes only an enchantment

Huh.

Either way Griptide is still an extremely lousy answer and will never see play.

I missed out on this. KrazyCaley- Have you picked a deck yet or will you be holding some sort of voting to select one of the three you narrowed it down to? An interesting idea would be to have 2 other TappedOut members playing the other two decks to see how they all fair. The occasionally grudge match would of course happen; who knows! Just a thought.

In order to do that, he's going to need to drastically improve them all.

@Darkness1835 - I'm fine-tuning and playtesting still. Not going to make a big event out of it I don't think, just because I am a bit pressed for time given the other T/O tasks I have to accomplish in coming days. I will choose one of the three. Hint - it will not be the mono-blue one.

you should make a fourth gruul aggro deck. :) or maybe cut the bant deck to selesnya?

If anyone's still in suspense, he's going to pick the Bant one because that's the closest to being good.

Not sure why I took the time to read through all of the comments. I lost brain cells in the process that I'll never be able to get back.

@Ashnard, While I think you have a couple of good points, your tone is pretty condescending and just makes you sound like an arrogant 12-year old (maybe you are?). You certainly spent a lot of effort in the name of being "right" on a message board full of strangers. Congrats, all of the internets go to you today. Spend them wisely. (condescension for ironic effect)

If you actually want people to listen to you I would try re-wording your criticism to be more constructive, otherwise most people will just get on the defensive and ignore what you're saying. Here it doesn't seem like you're trying to help the author so much as prove that you're better, to which I say nobody cares.

Final point: I think you're also missing a lot of what Daily Dose is/has been. Bolas for a Better Tomorrow wasn't going to win you a GP or anything and you don't see control staples like Snapcaster Mage or AEtherling in there but he still did fairly well with it. It fits Caley's play-style and provided an interesting read for those of us that liked a break from Jund and Bant Hexproof and Thragtusk and Geist of Saint Traft .

@KrazyCaley, I look forward to seeing Daily Dose again. It's always an entertaining read and helps break up my work day. I've played some Theros limited and it seems like a really fun set with a lot more possibilities than the RTR block gave us. It will be interesting to see how the meta changes and where some of these cards fit into that.

*If you actually want people to listen to you I would try re-wording your criticism to be more constructive, otherwise most people will just get on the defensive and ignore what you're saying. Here it doesn't seem like you're trying to help the author so much as prove that you're better, to which I say nobody cares.

Final point: I think you're also missing a lot of what Daily Dose is/has been. Bolas for a Better Tomorrow wasn't going to win you a GP or anything and you don't see control staples like Snapcaster Mage or AEtherling in there but he still did fairly well with it. It fits Caley's play-style and provided an interesting read for those of us that liked a break from Jund and Bant Hexproof and Thragtusk and Geist of Saint Traft .*

Perhaps if he were a normal person on this site, I would have gone a lot easier on him. However, he is not. He is an author here. He has an obligation to maintain a sense of credibility. He has an obligation to be better than the average player here in general (because here it's not that hard to do). Without any of those, he's just an overglorified greenfoot with the ability to shamelessly self promote his bad decks to everyone and have everyone praise him simply because he's famous on the site.

@KrazyCaley I would love to see the mill deck work out, I think mill will be viable going forward into the post Roto, and cards like Traumatize and Jace, Memory Adept will prove to be a quite powerful mill suit.

@Behgz - I am excited for it too. Having a hard time picking between the last two decks, actually. If only Thada Adel, Acquisitor were a $50 card.

Elixir of Immortality is rough when going for the mill win. Luckily it's actually included in very few sideboards, and even fewer mainboads, the exception being the rogue Angelic Accord decks right now.

My response to the elixirs has been a Cyclonic Rift to a counterspell, or wait for them to crack it and shuffle it into their library, then hit em for the biggest mill hit I can muster hoping to get that sucker in the yard for good. Amazingly players won't even play elixir right, instead of waiting til the last possible second they crack it early after one mill 10 from Jace or a couple Thought Scour . Granted a seasoned player should know how to weather a mill storm and that's the type of opponent one should always expect.

I've been running an Azorius mill brew on mtgo the past month and it does very well.

Traumatic Spiral is the deck.

if double white isn't too hard on your mana base, have you considered Celestial Flare ? seems like cheaper devine verdict. maybe even something like Dramatic Rescue could fill a slot. spot removal would be something like Selesnya Charm , since the other creatures are just smaller than yours hopefully.

speaking of being smaller than 5 power, a sweeeet card for this deck might be Loxodon Smiter ? WALLS early aggro, and provides a threat against control that can't be countered.

I have a couple of questions...

1) Why are there some comments missing from this article?

2) @KrazyCaley: What are your thoughts (mono blue control) on using Frostburn Weird instead of Akroan Horse ? Double blue for devotion to Thassa, God of the Sea AND is good all around vs aggro/midrange. You can pump it up later to deal up to 4 LP per turn which can close a game out pretty nicely if unaswered

@harrydemon117 Someone was being a punk on this thread. Looks like he either deleted his posts or his posts got deleted. His account still exists although he doesn't have any recent comments. Maybe an admin gave him the hammer for flaming threads.

Good! The only true ways to get rid of trolls however is to exile them...they all have Regeneration lol

@aeonblue - It turns out he was yet another Formortiis sockpuppet, so yeago muted him. And here I was trying to take his feedback in good faith.

@KrazyCaley Haterz gunna hate but a playa gotta play.

Don't give up on Grixis yet! I see more and more articles on people believing in the archetype (from here and other places)

Here's what i came up with BEFORE the bandwagon started :)

Grixis Superfriends

Good removal, nice counterspells, and a more midrange feel to it with plenty of creatures to combat aggro that can switch gears and go on the offensive

@harrydemon117 - Grixis remains awesome, but I wanted to shake things up a bit.