I like this a lot. I'm trying to learn how to play control and so any control primer will help me. If you're going to talk about a deck, I would go in-depth more on the cards and how they are integral to the deck, the strategy, and so on...

This sounds promising! I'll brew up Grixis, playtest aganist today's standard staples and get back to y'all!

I already use a Dega (R/B/W) deck, so switching the White to Blue seems just as intuitive. I'll tell you that Dega is very viable (check out my deck Slaughter Games: The Movie), and anything R/B/X can be powerful with the right build and lots of patience.

Glad to see other tri-colour controls being tested, as I'm sure many players are sick of esper.

@Matsi883:I was going to talk about the individual options available, but it started to look way more like a deck tech and that isn't really what I wanted to do. But I will definitely do that next time.

@Energycore: Glad to hear that you are so excited! I'd love to take a look at what you build and talk about how it performs after you get some testing in.

@Khaotica: That is actually why I posted this article. I have had several people talk to me (mostly IRL) about helping them with a Grixis build because they are bored of Esper.

I'm going to need a little help with your guys' standard saviness. Let's say my enemy resolves a crippling D-Sphere. What cards are there that can remove it (aside from Cyclonic Rift , i.e. deal with it permanently) in the colors? I've dug in the gatherer and i don't seem to find any. If the deck is going to have to rely on thoughtseize/slaughter games to remove enchantments, that's kind of a weakness with the current build i'm running.

Speaking of that build, here it is (note that description is not complete, i put this together in the last 40 minutes).

What do you guys think of Keranos, God of Storms as an alternative engine to Underworld Connections ? Would it make the cut considering it's five mana instead of three?

Energycore: I have recently been introducing my younger brother to competitive magic. I built him a basic U/B control deck. Ratchet Bomb is amazing in it! It blows up D-Spheres, controls planes walkers, and stifles Aggro. I can't say enough about that card, and it seems to solve your problem quite nicely.

Keranos absolutely has a home in Grixis.

For the past few months I've been taking a Grixis Superfriends deck to FNM, and have been overall satisfied with how it fares. I second the mana base as a major concern, recalling many games lost to guildgates while I was still assembling the important bits.

So i may or may not have deleted my brew. Here's the new version, with a name to fit.

Grixis was playable before JOU released but now with the UR scry land and Keranos, it's even better. I've been playing it since Theros released with off and on success. Really fun deck!

It's beginning to look a lot like Grixis.

I am glad to see everyone using Grixis or planning on doing so. This makes me happy. I definitely agree that it was playable before JOU, but now it has some serious potential.

also, I would like to point out that this was my first article, so I apologize for my lack of formatting skills. I imagine this would have been much more enjoyable to read if I fixed that. If I write another article, I will be sure to read up on how to format (which is what I should've done for this article).

I think if I write another article, It will be A competition series using standard Grixis decks. What do you guys think of that idea? would you be interested in participating?

Grixis player here! Had a Bolas control deck back in M13. It was boss.

What's the tap-out part? You only cover draw-go.

there are 2 major types of Grixis decks. The draw-go style (which I just discussed) and Tap-Out. Tap-Out is exactly what it sounds like. you are using your mana every turn, making a powerful play each turn. these builds are typically like super-friends or midrange type of decks. I wanted to just talk about draw-go for this article.

Step 1: Play Keranos, God of Storms

Step 2: Win.

I really think Grixis could be the preferred control variant for the next Standard season. Personally, I'm having a really hard time giving up white, as it gives access to Elspeth, Sun's Champion , Sphinx's Revelation and Supreme Verdict . As such, I'm still running Esper, which I just 3-0'd for the 3rd time in 4 weeks. The Verdict is really the key. But the vast majority of U/W/x's toolbox will be rotating out, and it seems like Grixis is going to be very well positioned to take over at that point.

I've personally gotten very bored of Esper (I am one of aforementioned advice seekers), and I'm currently in the process of putting together a Grixis build to run instead. It's still a work in progress. Haven't found a home for Keranos, God of Storms yet, and I think I'm still sticking a little too strongly to blue and black, since that's what I'm most comfortable with. I would definitely appreciate any advice from experienced players, particularly if you've been running Grixis successfully in this meta.

The deck:

Well im happy as hell I finally found a thread that considers Grixis a viable archetype, Most of my friends just tell me its a waist of time to play compared to esper or U/W control, but at the same time, I don't want to play THE most boring deck ever conceived, I want to play something fun, evil, and diabolical, which Is why I picked grixis, I swapped to Dega when some of the minotaurs from BNG came out, but I've got all the components to go back to grixis aside from the new scry land, I feel like Keranos, God of Storms gives grixis some serious firepower, and Extinguish All Hope might be the best board wipe spell we get for a long time as It kills almost EVERY powerhouse creature in standard atm.

I haven't updated it much just because I've been busy with my dega deck Kill one to warn a hundred but if any of you have time to check out my grixis deck from pre JOU and give some suggestions, Id greatly appreciate it. Cheers!
Shuttle and Loom, I Weave Your Doom

Is Mogis, God of Slaughter viable in a controling build. It is weak to d-spheres.

As far a d-spheres go, would sideboard Kiora's Dismissal , and Gainsay , be a good counter

Feedback: While what you write is good, this reads more like an introduction to an article where you go in-depth building a deck and then testing it out against other things in the current meta etc, a forum post with speculation about upcoming deck types or the introduction to a community discussion.
So yeah, if you could expand your articles a bit, that would be cool.

Loving this article mate, been try to convince myself to go Grixis for ages, and now i have. We get the best removal, evil creatures, walkers... If Phenax had a decent ability, we'd be unstoppable. Now, i'm a little broken in the head and i build decks that have no right to succeed, my Grixis build is no different. I want to use Bearer of the Heavens 's ability when ive got a few indestructible God's out, leaving my opponent helpless and me in control. If anyone wants to help me wreck some games at FNM, please help out a new Grixis player. Come on, do it for Bolas. The Heavens Have Fallen.

I'd be more than interested in playing Grixis for a competition. I love playtesting.

The first build of grixis i made got destroyed by the meta's aggressive (i.e. devotion) decks. It just couldn't keep up with the flood. I built that build around rakdos's return, as an answer to uw control / junk midrange. Since that didn't work, i'll be making a new brew, trying to focus on killing Black and Blue Devotion.

I'm thinking of brewing around Dictate of Kruphix . We haven't had a succesful turbo deck in a while, and i think i might be able to couple the dictate with black's cheap removal to create a powerful turbo deck. I'll get back to y'all.

Here's the newer brew. The lack of spells that deal with enchantments in the colors is frustrating. I hope there's a way around that.

Whoops

I think, and this is just my opinion, that the only reason Grixis is not the main color combo for control in Standard, is because of Esper. In a straight 1 for 1 brawl, Esper just has the better "stuff". In order for brewers to come up with a Grixis list they must get away from the shell of control and consider how to win the tempo game. That they can definitely do. U and B are both extremely powerful in a tempo race from 20-0. R has the right stuff to support the race. I believe, again my opinion, a list primarily composed of B with U and R supporting will have the most success. Black has three of the best tempo creature cards in the game in Desecration Demon , Erebos, God of the Dead , and Master of the Feast .

Well, i've been playing Grixis since before Theros block started and I"m glad to say with Temple of Epiphany and Keranos, God of Storms it's looking MUCH better (just a shame it took the 3rd part of the block in order for it to get the proper mana fixing it needed)

Here's my Grixis build for anyone to check out/comment on:

Here is a standard grixis deck i put together

I have been playing for a few months with a grixis build I made by looking at some others and some primers for advice and here is what I have come up with:

Overwhelming Cruelties

Its not the best but I think the removal suite is solid....the manabase not so much with the guildgates but almost everyone I play with uses these.....we're all pretty new for the most part and I plan to upgrade to a full set of all the scry lands for grixis. The shock lands are great but I'm not willing to invest in them at $5-9 each, since theyre about to rotate. I hope that once I get a full set of scry lands things will work alot better. I just feel like more times than not, things dont work out right, I don't draw the things I need, etc....I really want grixis to succeed in standard and will be following this thread in the future to see what sorts of things you guys have to say about the format.

I think also that Keranos, God of Storms will be great and plan on acquiring 2 this weekend. Looking at the new stuff, a couple others could be useful for us, but I'm not sure.

Magma Spray could replace Magma Jet as a cheaper, non-scry spell....We dont have access to much 1 cost removal but that's not too important, I like the spell, just not sure if it will fit in.

Also, Spite of Mogis could be good I think.....On turn 4 or 5 it could hit for 5, which isn't bad for 1 mana.....later it could hit for more and provides scry....I think this one is better than spray.

Two others that MIGHT find their place in grixis are Riddle of Lightning and Interpret the Signs ....on second thought Pull from the Deep could be good as well.

What's you guys' thoughts on these?

I'd like to see what you can brew up, Stemii. Even if you don't usually construct decks, every point of view is important and i have basically no experience with tempo decks.

I'm currently running a Grixis Tempo deck ala Spellheart Chimera. Not Draw-Go like you're looking for, but its decent. Spell Slinging Chimera Tempo

I am excited to see the amount of people that have been playing and succeeding with grixis. I , for one, am going to start some playtesting with Worst Fears . It looks like it could be a lot of fun

@CommanderOfBolas:

I think it would be a sideboard card at best. It's 8 mana which is hard to get to without ramping and I suspect that the meta will be FULL of aggro decks now that better one drops have been released for them all.

I agree, but my personal deck is well suited for the agro matchup. my meta is full of Voice of Resurgence and Xathrid Necromancer . I think I will use it in the side, but the only way to know for sure is to try it out

I really feel like Worst Fears would be awesome. What is the downside of taking your opponent's turn? Then after that you just get to get your turn again. I will definitely run 1-2 Worst Fears when I get my hands on some.

I think I'd like there to be a primer on this site as to how to build a grixis control deck.....whats good, what isn't, etc.

It could be up to date as of JOU and show which matchups are bad, sideboard options for each matchup etc.

Also as some others have said, you could clean up your formatting, maybe if you make an actual primer include some images lol.

Otherwise great read! :D

The thing you have to consider is that it's an 8 mana spell. most aggro decks won't give you the chance to make it that far, and starting with 1 let alone 2 in your starting hand is BAD.

Also, against Selesnya/Orzhov/or other white weenie variants a Brave the Elements = death for you and Anger of the Gods .

Better would be to go with something more versatile like an Izzet Charm or something that can be used in multiple modes maindeck, and then side out whatever for the Worst Fears games 2 and or 3

What's the worst that could happen even if you did resolve a Worst Fears ? Make them waste their tricks? Seems pretty lackluster when you get down to it.

Against control deck Worst Fears could make them tap out their lands so you can resolve a threat, or else make them cast a Detention Sphere targeting their own planeswalker/permanent to bring you back in the game. Sphinx's rev on 0, or cast something small and counter their own spell. You get information on their hand, get to tap down their lands, and possibly 2 or even 3 for one them for your trouble.

Well, I don't claim to be a pro with my tempo style of play, but if finished X-1 last night, in 4 rounds, with Protect Him!. This is the deck I will probably be playing for a while. The removal and stuff could be shifted to a Grixis color combo. And when I view some of these lists here I really wonder what the deck could do against this style of control.

Araganor never played against a Mindslaver deck have you (with it out, without Academy Ruins on the field)... What harrydemon117 says is pretty much what will happen, not to mention if they use Mana Confluence that's also life loss in your favor. Playing your opponents turn is HUGE in any format.

harrydemon117: If you could resolve an 8 mana spell, what would be stopping you from resolving your threats instead? I'm not denying it has a powerful ability, but realistically it doesn't feel necessary.

Yeah, just think........I'll Banishing Light your elspeth......Sphinx Revelation for 0......against a burn deck, burn their creatures with their own stuff, or just burn them! Its great! Lol. Tap all their mana for no reason, whatever you can think of lol

I'm going to critique this article's format and writing style. Because once I understood it, the information was there, to a point.

If you're not wanting to go into a deck tech, what plays are successful and elaborate in detail as to what, when, where, why.

It's not a comment, so it should be verbose. Explain why those cards mess up the mana base, "double colors in a few of them" is not enough, give examples of what you're expecting and what happens.

What enchantments are a problem and why? You should be talking like you're explaining it to a complete newb in this style of play.

Also your formatting should be a bit better, that's about 4-5 paragraphs smashed into one that is rather hard to read.

Yes, you give information, but barely enough to even think about a starting point to get us to understand the deck and it's not clear enough to make it easy to understand.

I'm not sure if anyone else commejted on this in this way, I did read the first few comments though... but not every single one. So if I repeat anyone, just take it as reinforcing their ideas.

I, for one, am pumped about Grixis becoming viable again. The introduction of Temple of Epiphany , Mana Confluence , and Keranos, God of Storms were exactly what Grixis needed for a revival. The rotating out of RtR will pretty much neuter UWx control, so I think we could be looking at Grixis as the new dominant control format in standard. Regardless of what the new block brings, the Grixis content in Theros is pretty dang strong. I'm not sure whether to be happy or sad that my favorite Alara faction is going to be the new Esper control though. I hate playing against Esper control, and don't want to start hating Grixis too! D:

phaze08: Don't forget making AEtherling a 9/0 >:D

Like I said, I think Worst Fears is awesome, but I'm afraid we'll be dead before we get it out. Perhaps it might have a place sideboard against control though, who knows?

@guffymike: Thank you for the criticism. This was mt first article and I am not familiar with formatting techniques, and my article definitely suffered from it. I attempted to seperate my paragraphs with line breaks, but as you can see, that didnt work. I think the material would have been much easier to understand if this were formatted better. Again, i thank you for the criticism and i assure you the next one will be better

Just throwing it out there, anyone wanting to use Worst Fears may want to consider Oracle of Bones . It's a long shot, but it just might work. Imagine the look on people's faces when you get a turn 4 Worst Fears! Anyway, just putting it out there.

On a different note, do we feel like Spite of Mogis might have a place in the new control meta?

If you ask me, we have all the correct tools to run Grixis right now in Standard. Everything else, though, is just so much better and has more efficient tools.

If you run a true "draw go" control deck then yes. My deck has around 24 instant/sorcery cards so it could be good, except on turn one.

I think if you want to make Spite of Mogis the best it could be, you should probably include Izzet Charm to help fuel the graveyard and dig for the card you want (if not just use it for straight up removal).

Every build is different, and mine was using R/B heavy for removal/hand disruption, and light on blue for counterspells (which is why I use Psychic Strike and Essence Scatter for my counterspells of choice instead of Dissolve )

@zandl:

If by efficiency you mean Supreme Verdict , Detention Sphere , and Sphinx's Revelation I agree that U/W/x has better use of cards against the meta, but there are things in Grixis that aren't that far off from those.

And in a head's up match, Grixis has the edge on U/W or Esper if you ask me.

Slaughter Games naming Elspeth, Sun's Champion or AEtherling ? Remove their win cons and you are just about home free. Not to mention a well timed Rakdos's Return empties their hand and you just took over

i tried grixis last week and i found that Crypt Incursion is a great way to regain a lot of life and also shuts down and graveyard decks you might come across.

Ironically, the only thing that Grixis does better than Esper/Azorius control decks is beat Esper/Azorius control decks.

You get access to Slaughter Games , Rakdos's Return , Counterflux , Izzet Charm , Keranos, God of Storms , etc.

True dat, Counterflux is bonkers in the control mirror.

I think spite of Mogis is extremely solid for the meta. Used properly it's a one drop kill spell that lets you dig. I find that hard to argue with.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Grixis has a huge edge against Esper. It obviously depends on specific lists, but the Esper deck I run has a wide variety of win cons. I've won games using Elspeth, Sun's Champion , Blood Baron of Vizkopa , Obzedat, Ghost Council , AEtherling , Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver , and even milling with Jace, Memory Adept . You aren't going to be able to Slaughter Games away all my threats. And Esper has significantly better card draw available to it, and is more likely to be able to pull a 2-for-1 with cards like Supreme Verdict and Detention Sphere . I think the matchup is roughly even, maybe 55-45 in favor of Grixis depending on the builds, but certainly nothing outrageous. And as far as Izzet goes, I have never lost to an Izzet or American deck. Ever. I think Esper absolutely owns those matchups.

kmcree: Never? That I personally find hard to believe. Unless they are just running a less than optimal build, American has many of the same tools that Esper does. Granted, Esper is at an advantage with Thoughtseize , Hero's Downfall , and perhaps Blood Baron of Vizkopa , but American has Turn / Burn , Counterflux , and now Keranos, God of Storms at its disposal. Perhaps you are just a more skillful player than your opponents? Please elaborate.

Well obviously I haven't played much against Keranos as he just came out. I played an Izzet deck the other night that ran him and beat it 2-1, but it wasn't a true control deck. It was built around Young Pyromancer and Spellheart Chimera , both of which I think are pretty subpar as far as wincons go.

I've honestly only run into 1 or 2 American control decks that I would consider the be well-built (the others were clearly on a budget), and I haven't had any issues. Stormbreath Dragon and Elspeth, Sun's Champion can both easily be handled by Thoughtseize , as can AEtherling . Hero's Downfall is also very strong against those cards.

Most of the Izzet decks I've run into weren't particularly strong, I personally think the whole Young Pyromancer /Guttersnipe /Spellheart Chimera build is pretty weak. I think something built with Keranos might have some potential, but I still think that, until rotation, Esper has the tools to handle it relatively easily. Esper just has too much awesome removal available to it right now.

OK, so it sounds like you beat those American decks with good play, which is understandable enough. A lot of American decks can win by playing an Assemble the Legion then backing it up with plenty of counters, which is harder to deal with for an Esper deck, as your only answer mainboard is Detention Sphere (assuming you don't get a chance to Thoughtseize ). Izzet is not really on the same level of control as UWx currently, so it's no surprise you beat those. I wouldn't count out American though, it has the tools to compete with Esper IMHO.

@kmcree: The thing is that Grixis has answers for all of that. obviously Slaughter Games wont take care of all of it, but maybe just naming AEtherling is enough. Grixis has plenty to deal with walkers, Mizzium Mortars for blood barons, and instant speed removal for ghost daddy. I personally think that Grixis does have an edge, even though it may be small. your list sounds more midrangey, but I think straight control favors grixis.

I haven't been real impressed with Assemble the Legion to be honest. It has its places in certain matchups, but against control is not one of them. If its t5 and the Esper player isn't holding a counter, doesn't have Detention Sphere , and hasn't Thoughtseize 'd then they're doing something wrong. I think its just too slow and too easy to see coming.

@CommanderOfBolas: that's definitely a fair assessment. I think Grixis has all the tools to deal with Esper's threats, and I also think Esper has all the tools to deal with Grixis's threats. Which why I think the matchup is roughly even. I definitely don't think Esper has an advantage in that matchup, but I do think its close enough to call even.

But you don't play Assemble turn 5, just like you don't play Aetherling turn 6. You wait to support it, and B/R has its own counters and Thoughtseize in Grixis to respond with.

My point was simply that by the time you reach that point in the game, the Esper player should have plenty of ways to deal with Assemble the Legion . Also, Legion isn't played in Grixis, since its white. Its played in American, which doesn't have Thoughtseize .

I can see that I'm not going to be able to sway your opinion here. We should probably stop this and take the discussion back to Grixis control.

I'm planning on trying to put together a Grixis control brew sooinsh, I will let you guys know how it goes.

I just want to clarify that I'm not bashing on Grixis. As I mentioned, I think it has lots of potential, especially post rotation when Esper and Azorius will lose almost all of their toolbox. I'm in the process of putting my Grixis list together, and once I do and play with it I may have a different opinion. But for now, I think Esper is slightly stronger.

I am confused with this logic on Esper not being stronger than Grixis. Two of the best tempo cards available for control both lie in Esper's favor. If you really need to me mention them I guess I will. Sphinx's Revelation and Supreme Verdict , provide so much value at crucial stages in a match. Supreme Verdict is obviously not for Grixis control matches, but in a tournament you play against a variation of aggro and mid range lists, and the sweepers for Grixis just aren't there. I am sorry. This argument would be more concrete if there were ANY successful top placing consistent list on the pro tour.

I repeat Grixis is not prepared to play the control game, with the likes of Esper. Grixis must adapt and play a game it can win. Grixis is great, and with the devoted group here surely you all can put your combined efforts to use in coming up with a winning combination. Do not foolishly chase a title you can not hold. Esper is the best control list next to U/W. Play the tempo game.

Spite of Mogis isn't bad aside from being sorcery speed but in grixis it could be pretty damn powerful.

How do you guys feel about Interpret the Signs ? Somewhat expensive (about like Opportunity ) but can give you up to 3 cards that you actually want (my average cmc is ~3) and sometimes 1-3 more cards.

To all of you who express strongly by their opinions, i encourage you to build a deck that supports your opinion. The more brews the merrier, and you're also backing yourself up so people can't call you out.

Really like this article. Im getting back into magic after a 4-5 year break. And prior to that I was not a very competitive player. But NOW, I want to know as much as I possibly can. So I really liked how you opened with explaining what Grixis is(I already knew that but good for others who dont). However you missed a beat when you talked about MUD. I have no idea what MUD is. So someone else probably doesnt either. Felt maybe you skimped on the "Draw-go" play style, and then skipped over "Tap-out". Really liked how you touched on most of the staples to a grixis deck. Overall really liked the article, but thought it could have touched on/ or had some futher explanations. Looking forward to more articles like this!

Interpret the Signs might have been good if it was an instant

Spite of Mogis is good, but better in a U/R heavy deck.

I agree that, as a whole, Esper has a good matchup against nearly everything, and is better than grixis in most cases. However, I think Grixis has the potential to be better. This article was mostly intended to say that the tools are there. I am playtesting some new builds and seeing how they fair

@Vito1014: MUD (at least in this context) means mono blue devotion. So its built with cards like Judge's Familiar and Frostburn Weird that build devotion for cards like Master of Waves and Thassa, God of the Sea . It was huge when Theros first came out, but its died done quite a bit.

@Vito1014: I really appreciate the feedback. I will do the best I can on the next article to go more into detail on those things, and I will spend more time making sure everyone knows what I am talking about.

Cool, thanks for the clarification. That long of a gap in this game has put me severely behind the curve. haha

CommanderOfBolas: Thought i'd get the article back on track lol.

lol thank you Vito1014. Much appreciated

So, who else is ready for rotation? Is esper still going to be as strong without verdict, D-Sphere and Sphincter's rev? Sure, we lose stuff as well, but it's worth it. (yes, I am painfully aware that rotation is ages away still, just starting a new topic)

It all really depends on what the next block brings us, but I would say U/W/x is going to be done for now. those cards are the only reason to play the U/W decks.

So I very quickly threw this together... And it could be altered to fit anyone's play style. Grixis has Beats

Brewed this just now: Zandl's JOU Grixis

I tried to make up for Grixis's current lack of card-advantage spells with a set of Magma Jet which obviously doubles as removal or burn to the face, supporting Keranos a bit. I've been strongly interested in Ashiok the past few weeks in Standard and I think s/he is poised to be really good in this midrange-heavy format that Standard is turning into and has been lately.

It's just a rough chop for now, but I think this would be similar to the Grixis control deck that would work best right now.

I wanted to start off by saying Spite of Mogis is an awful card, I had so much hype for it until I re-read it. It doesn't target players, unless you were planning on using it against a Boros Reckoner it does nothing early game and next to nothing late game.

As for the battle of Esper vs Grixis, let's take the cards that are unique to the decks into consideration.

Esper has:

Elspeth, Sun's Champion - Great against control/aggro/midrange, just about everything.

Sphinx's Revelation - Great for regaining life and cards

Supreme Verdict - Blow the field to protect yourself

Detention Sphere - Removes anything, and everything

Grixis has:

Dreadbore - Goodbye planeswalkers

Mizzium Mortars - Goodbye everything under 5 toughness

Anger of the Gods - Goodbye everything under 4 toughness

Rakdos's Return - Goodbye card advantage and planeswalker

Slaughter Games - Goodbye wincons

If I've forgotten anything please forgive me but it looks to me grixis has the homefield advantage here, sure Esper has an easier time drawing cards with Sphinx's Revelation but grixis can suck them all out of there hand with Rakdos's Return . Elspeth, Sun's Champion is an utterly brilliant win con, but get hosed by two cards in grixis's arsenal. (and that's not even counting Hero's Downfall and Dreadbore )

This is something I just thought up, seems like an okay build, based off of zandls, witha few alterations.

Zandl's JOU Grixis copy

CommanderOfBolas I play tested Interpret the Signs last night to see how it performed and in 1 testing (Which isn't really conclusive testing) here is what happened:

Scry 3, reveal Temple of Deceit , Temple of Malice , Temple of Epiphany ....I really wanted to get a good draw (even though I hoped to get a land or two), so I put all 3 to the bottom and revealed an island....so I drew nothing. I got through that mana clump but it was a wasted turn.

Please don't misread my comments from yesterday. I simply said that Esper has a great game against most of the meta right now as it's been an established archetype for several years and a lot of pro players have tweaked it to make it so.

Grixis SHOULD be up and coming due to the matchup it has against Esper U/W solely. It has a good game vs monoblack devotion and monoblue devotion respectively, but needs just a little bit of tweaking against some aggro decks

Anger of the Gods and Drown in Sorrow are HUGE additions to Grixis that has helped recently, and only time will tell which one will be better. Some decks are heavy black so Drown in Sorrow is obviously the more consistent, while other builds are either more balanced or favor red/burn so Anger of the Gods works better.

Schuesseled stated all of my points on the straight up matchup between the two "archetypes". Over the course of 100's of matchups between these decks, Grixis should be the favored (at least on paper) due to it's tools vs Esper or UW control lists.

The other thing I like to look at is the "charms" available to each side.

ESPER: Azorius Charm , Orzhov Charm

GRIXIS: Izzet Charm , Rakdos Charm

Looking at these options Izzet Charm is another counterspell vs U/W/x control decks, whereas Azorius Charm is just a cantrip (draw a card). It usually doesn't have creatures to give lifelink too (excluding Elspeth here), and Grixis doesn't attack/block so that mode is null and void. Izzet Charm deals with Mutavault , can counter a non creature spell, or be a cycle engine by drawing 2 and dropping your bad/dead cards in the matchup (although you DO lose a card, but let's be honest that game 1 Mizzium Mortars is dead so digging another card deeper and having to drop a card in the process isn't that much of a setback).

Rakdos Charm vs Orzhov Charm . Rakdos Charm wins this fight hands down as you can redirect the token damage to Elspeth, Sun's Champion , with the attrition war and exile their graveyard so that Elixir of Immortality doesn't recycle all of their good cards, and even gets rid of a Pithing Needle . Orzhov Charm just sits there like "DUH, what am I going to do?"

Obviously both have access to Dimir Charm so that's a draw in that fight.

Looking at just the tools available it looks like Grixis would win on paper. I've had good success vs UW matchups, and against Esper it's about slightly above 50%

On that note, would you think Dimir Charm or Izzet Charm is better for grixis harrydemon117? I can't decide which I like better, they're pretty similar.

Ok. I am done making the debate harrydemon117. I was just trying to help you all make your favorite archetype better. Your last argument on charms just put me in a place of frustration that I would rather not be in when reading about the game I love. I attempted to save everyone here some time.

Now I am done. I have provided as much feedback as I could.

Good luck to the group on your builds and brews.

I acquired a King Macar, the Gold-Cursed yesterday..... He's not a win con by any means but he could serve as good removal.... Humor me for a minute.

Now, this is a two card combo so probably not reliable. But I thought about using Springleaf Drum to tap him, which would give 1 mana of any color. Then next turn he would untap and exile a creature, giving another mana and you could use the drum to tap each turn..... So after the first turn he would give two mana of any color.... Sure he would need to be protected but that would be 1 creature gone each turn and 2 extra mana to help fix if you have color issues and let you cast extra stuff.

Seems useful possibly, right?

@Stemii: I'm sorry if I upset you in any way. I just voiced my own opinion on the subject matter and not trying to argue with anyone on it. You are obviously very opinionated on the topic and fully believe that Esper / UW control is the "deck to beat" and I do not doubt that.

I also advise you to not foolishly discard another archetype simply because you don't believe in it. The same thing happened to a lot of people and the "bulk rare bomb" Pack Rat several months back before MBD became a thing.

@phaze08:

Hmmm...interesting question regarding the charms. I haven't really given Izzet Charm the chance it needs yet and I have used Dimir Charm to excellent results. Monoblue devotion creatures simply die to it as all of their creatures (excluding Thassa, God of the Sea ) have 2 or less power. It's also a great "fate seal" card in that you can keep your opponent from top decking the one card to let them back in the game.

It's also rather handy vs Thoughtseize , opposing Rakdos's Return , Duress , etc.

Izzet Charm is good vs other aggro decks that use a lot of creatures that have 2 or less toughness.

I would suggest this: Is red or black more prevalent in YOUR build? That should give you the best chance at being consistent as you will most likely draw that color (black or red) when you need it to use for removal

For the record. I hate Esper Control. And U/W. I want them out of the format. Just like I wanted UWR control out of the last format with INN block. I truly want to help you guys after starting off reading the posts the day the article dropped. I just wanted you all to see reason and temper that in your builds because honestly some of the cards that have been recommended were awful. There are really only a select list of always playable cards in a specific archetype. After that it is all about preference.

I just wanted everyone here to consider that Grixis has to find its power play to win games consistently. Using a control shell as the engine is too hard in the current list of cards.

I told my self long ago when I started posting on this here internet with strangers if I ever found my self frustrated I should step away. I respect everyone's opinion here and good luck brewing.

harrydemon117 Well my build is about 40% black and 30% blue and red so the Dimir Charm would probably be more consistent. Izzet Charm would rely on about 60% of my land whereas Dimir Charm would rely on about 70% of my land. They're both pretty similar....so I'll prolli just run the dimir one.

Honestly I agree with Stemii here. Grixis does not have the long game that Esper does. Grixis has to play the aggressor in that matchup, or they wont be able to compete. Playing things like Sire Of Insanity and Rakdos's Return would be necessary to put some pressure on esper and its variants, paying draw-go is pretty much letting UW stomp you. To me, it feels like Grixis should play a midrange plan with lots of hand-hate against control decks, while a more controlling deck against aggro. With a good sideboard I think that the deck could be very flexible, which is where I feel its strength will be.

The problem with playing Grixis midrange is that you'd just be building MBD with the best cards in that pool.

I think grixis has a better shot post rotation because U/W/x just has better options currently. I brewed up a rudimentary list a few weeks ago considering the current options available. Please take a look, I am not looking for feedback on cards to add but input into the list as a whole, and what you guys think a better approach might be.

Deck: O Bolas, Where art thou?

Actually, using Slaughter Games to set up for Sire Of Insanity by calling Detention Sphere pretty much stomps u/w/x control. Araganor

@phaze08: There are other answers like Supreme Verdict etc vs Sire Of Insanity so that doesn't always work.

I think that Esper & UW control have gotten more attention due to ease of mana fixing (2/3 temples were available in Theros whereas Grixis only had Temple of Deceit and not enough fixing until JOU was released so it had all 3 of its temples)

Brain Maggot may prove to be a good sideboard card against any control deck strategy as most removal will be taken out for games 2 and 3.

Time will tell of course, but I am going to continue to work on Grixis if for no other reason to usurp Esper & UW from my local metagame :)

phaze08: You just proved my point though....

I said that Grixis has to be the aggressor instead of playing the long game, which is what the play you suggested does.

here's my updated list:

I think people are forgetting how many counterspells Esper runs. And most decks will side in even more when they see you're running control also. So acting like you can just cast Rakdos's Return or Sire Of Insanity to undo their card advantage makes no sense. Odds are, they'll counter it. And if they don't, they probably have a Hero's Downfall waiting. The biggest weapon Grixis has against Esper is Slaughter Games . But beyond that, nothing Grixis runs is any more threatening than the cards other decks run. And its been pretty well established (on this thread even) that Esper has great matchups against pretty much everything (with the possible exception of Azorius).

Araganor so by what you're saying then any control deck becomes the aggressor when they produce their win con. Because by siding in Sire Of Insanity against control then he becomes your main win con for that matchup.

By your logic, we're the aggressor when we produce AEtherling or when esper produces Blood Baron of Vizkopa or Elspeth, Sun's Champion .

Has anyone tried to build a Grixis using KrazyCaley's Bolas for a Better Tomorrow?

I built a very successful Grixis control from it with just a few minor tweaks back aroud M13. The are also many cards that are similar like Hero's Downfall over Murder or Pull from the Deep over Mystic Retrieval

@kmcree:

You presume that I will just run out my Rakdos's Return the first chance I get. Just like Esper, I run Thoughtseize and bring in Duress from the sideboard (and maybe even Brain Maggot if I decide I need even more disruption). Once I'm sure it will succeed, THEN I cast my Rakdos's Return thus emptying their hand.

Rakdos's Return doesn't just deal with their hand. The damage can be redirected to a Jace, Architect of Thought and REALLY take control of the game at that point.

We also (at least me) include a Cyclonic Rift in my deck as enchantments are hard to deal with. an overloaded Cyclonic Rift followed by a Rakdos's Return is a successful line of play that can happen out of nowhere.

I personally believe that if Grixis is going to have a home in this meta, it's going to be on the Tempo range. I'll present a build that relies on this and i'm thinking that it's going to end up being Grixis devotion, on the MBD shell with support. I'd also like to build a deck that relies on Dictate of Kruphix - this card is an omen that turbo might be back in standard.

@harrydemon117: Okay, that's nice, but you're only looking at things from one perspective, and assuming that what you want to happen will happen. You're forgetting that Esper has all of those hand disruption tricks too. They can easily pull your Rakdos's Return or Sire Of Insanity . Esper will bring in extra Duress as well. To use your same logic, Esper can use disruption and hold their AEtherling until they know it will succeed. And AEtherling will end games fast than Sire Of Insanity or Rakdos's Return . My point is simply that I think the matchup is much closer to even than people on here seem to think.

Do you guys think that you have a good deck if you can make 3 separate people rage quit in a row? I put together a deck to playtest, and I love it. Firemind's Foresight is pretty amazing as it insures that I have answers for every situation. I am loving it so much.

@kmcree: I agree it is a close matchup. Against UW it's more like 60/40 in favor of Grixis but esper is closer to 51/49 in favor of Grixis (in the hands of experienced players on BOTH sides that is)

So this is the deck I have come up with.

In regards to planeswalkers' mainboard in the control build, is it fair to say Jace, Architect of Thought is the only one really worth the slot?

I like Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver a lot and I personally love the idea of taking my opponents threats and killing them with it, it's a great way to close out any game, but I find that against severe beatdown decks he simply isn't fast enough to get in there and the few threats he does eliminate, aren't enough to put a severe hamper on your opponent.

The new Chandra might be the best one printed thus far, but for control she seeems terrible, a +1 that is irrelevant, a 0 that could be extremely detrimental if you exile your own counterspells, and a ultimate that is so-so.

Ral Zarek is usually alongside Jace and Ashiok, but is it fair to say that he's been replaced by Keranos, God of Storms ? Accelerated card draw, a similar lightning bolt and although Ral's ultimate is amazeballs if it goes off, I wouldn't mind a semi-constant lightning bolt picking off my opponents chumps, while I Dreadbore and Hero's Downfall their bigger creatures over it.

I've been following this thread and some of the cards that got suggested are either (in my opinion) unplayable in standard, or are interesting and deserve further exploration like Pull from the Deep . Being able to get back a counterspell, removal, or even Rakdos's Return or Slaughter Games to close games out seems like something I would want to be doing a couple of times in my games. Do you think this is a sideboard only card against control decks so you can recycle your counters while baiting theirs?

CommanderOfBolas I think Firemind's Foresight is pretty cool it's about like Pull from the Deep only more expensive and I bit better.

Does it work well for you?

I think it is great. it tutors for 3 instants which is extremely powerful. it is so versatile. get a Syncopate , Devour Flesh , Izzet Charm , Essence Scatter , Hero's Downfall , Dissolve or Counterflux . those can all be game changing cards and foresight is just so flexible. every time I cast it, I put myself in a winning position. I take over the game almost immediately after casting it, and it doesn't rely on the graveyard like Pull from the Deep . maybe Pull from the Deep deserves a spot as well. ill probably start testing it soon.

I've brewed myself a Tempo Grixis deck. This deck is more on the midrange side of things, and also on the Tap-Out side of things.

I run Master of the Feast in i think the only setup that is viable for him: along with 3 of Dictate of Kruphix and 3-of Notion Thief . The dictate mitigates the card advantage given to the opponent by master a bit, and a flashy Notion Thief can 100% cancel it out, forcing removal on the worst case. It's honestly more of a 1-turn pony since it's going to eat removal 100% of the time. I don't mind that because that's one less card to respond a Demon or Dragon from my list.

Feel free to playtest / comment on the brew:

Sadly, if you're going to run Black tempo you might as well run mono black devotion. This grixis build did horribly against MBD. Couldn't get a win no matter what, thanks to MBD's untapped lands and overall mana consistency. I'll have to brew up something else but i'm starting to lose hope in general.

My build has been very successful so far. I haven't lost a match on untap.in (great site for playing magic, btw. its free, too!) I have played against jund monsters, bant walkers, mono green agro, and junk reanimator, and orzhov agro. I beat them all. the only thing I imagine will be a bad match up is R/W burn. I should probably devote some sideboard cards to beating it

I agree I think Firemind's Foresight could be great I might mess with it.... I have one.

you only need one. any more would be a bit excessive. you should make sure you have a variety of cards at each cmc to maximize its effectiveness (i.e. removal, counterspell, etc)

Yeah right now I only have Psychic Strike and Hero's Downfall at 3cmc and everything else is 2...... No 1cmc instant's. Only have 2 1cmc cards in whole deck lol.

lol Syncopate is a good option. so is Quicken if you want that. from the sideboard, you could throw in a Dispel or 2. or Dark Betrayal if you want those.

Hey guys - absolutely love the article and the thread, I just put together a Grixis deck, and didn't know there was a discussion on the deck type going, it's my first 3 color deck so I'd appreciate your guys insight on it, you all seem far more knowledgeable than me on all things Grixis.

The Grixis Grind

CommanderOfBolas - nice article to get this discussion going, I take your point on not turning it into a deck tech primer, but it would have been super useful for me, if you looked at both the 'draw/go' and 'tap-out' versions.

Also I think it would be good to possibly as a group discussion, look at what people believe is the "core" of a Grixis deck, which things are auto includes in any R/B/U, which things work better in draw/go, which in tap-out. And which things are down to meta choices and preferences.

Just really my opinion - but as a clueless 3 -color noob trying out Grixis they're questions I'm looking for answers on.

Like I said any input on my deck would be really appreciated.

I shall be keeping up with this thread, hope it continues to develop.

I also thought about Gainsay for control matchups. When do you really NEED a sorcery to be instant speed?

Actually Quicken + Dreadbore it draws you a card and turns it into instant speed (End OF Turn) removal on your opponent's turn.

Quicken + Divination allows for up to 3 cards drawn for 4 mana, and Quicken + Rakdos's Return allows for you to empty their hand on THEIR turn instead of yours

Hmm I may look into messing with it as it seems to have it's uses.

What about Ral Zarek ? Hes the right colors but does he really fit? His second ability is good removal and his last one is just win but his first is meh most the time. It's great if you're attacking and you can tap down a block, his untap part can be used on a land if you have something you need to cast....Thinking about making room as I have 2. Is he good enough for us though?

Oh and I forgot to mention that Quicken + Anger of the Gods = instant speed board wipe.

I USED to use Ral Zarek back when I ran more midrange Grixis and had Master of Cruelties in the deck but it was too "combo-ish" and didn't work as expected.

I dropped him from my build but if I decide to include Keranos, God of Storms maindeck then I will probably look at it again

Ral Zarek doesn't quite do it. I do like him, but he just isn't efficient. he doesn't protect himself well, and he doesn't do much to forward our game plan. besides, jace AoT fits better in that spot, anyway.

I agree on Ral. His plus just won't be affecting anything on the board beyond giving us 1 more mana per turn to work with. You pretty much have to play him onto an empty battlefield, too, as he Bolts and goes down to kill-range Loyalty. He's not particularly awful, but he doesn't excel at anything, either.

Thats my feelings I used to use him, but I ended up cutting him, I just feel like he was always kinda meh...just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything special about him lol. He's cool and I want to like him, he's just not great. I did actually win off his ultimate once though.

I definitely believe he was designed more for the casual player than for the competitive one.

A friend of mine is offering to trade me Underworld Cerberus for 2 Archetype of Courage I have laying around....could cerberus be useful for us? Good attacker in fact, prolli unblockable mostly. The bad thing is when dies they get their stuff back, but you get any dead win cons also.....odds are most decks will have to discard alot of stuff if theyre pretty aggressive and won't have enough hands to hold it, but they'll keep their best stuff. I'll prolli go through with the trade but not sure he's right for grixis.

It really depends on what type of grixis deck you have. if you are a control deck with lots of removal and counters, I would say no, don't use it. he isn't worth it, in my opinion.

You're probably right I think my win cons are good for now, I'll try to find a place elsewhere for him though, he's pretty cool.

By all means, that's a good trade in your favor. However, don't use the actual card in your control deck. All it takes is one kill-spell and all your work this far is undone.

CommanderOfBolas

I Love Grixis. That is by far my favorite color combination. It has the power and cruelty I love and so ever since Bolas left us in m13 when I was running grixis last, besides Commander, I have been sorta sad. Right now I see the best chance for Grixis to make a somewhat of come back. The problem is we have pieces but we are definitely missing one or two to finish our puzzle. Doesn't mean what we have isn't beautiful, it just means its difficult for us to compare our unfinished puzzle with that of U/W/X because of their uncounterable fieldwipe, life gaining draw spell with an X in it, Better finishing planeswalkers and creatures. ((See Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Blood Baron of Vizkopa . )) Right now. This is what I have right now for Grixis Draw Go. It is shakey and has room for improvement, but I do think it is a strong base.Grixis Control Journey

I am new to grixis and was wondering if some of you could steer me in the right direction with my deck Grixis D and D. I plan on playing a grixis build until rotation so any and all advice would be very appreciated Thank you in advance.

To answer your questions:

No.No.Say something useful.

I enjoyed reading what you wrote here. I do agree with some others that it could have explained just a bit more some different terms and such. A big part of that is just people reading this who have overall varying degrees of familiarity with the subject. In any case, you got a great discussion started here, so kudos to you.

I do have a suggestion. Pardon me if this was already mentioned as well. When you use an acronym for the first time in an article like this, put what it stands for in parentheses. For instance, "this deck has a favorable matchup against MUD (mono-blue devotion) but has weaknesses...etc." You could then make the (mono-blue devotion) part a hyperlink to a typical example of a deck. Along similar lines, you could put a hyperlink of an idea such as "draw-go" to link to an existing article to explain a concept like that in general.

I don't actually know how to do these things well at all, but I'm guessing it's listed somewhere on this site. Anyway, entertaining read. Keep up the good work.

I really think someone (if not CommanderOfBolas) should make a how-to primer of sorts showing whats good for grixis control, what isn't. Whats a staple, what's recommended and what is available but not really recommended. Show good combos such as Cyclonic Rift overload + Rakdos's Return etc.

phaze08 I think I may attempt to do that now. I try my best at deck building at all times and Many people come to me about deck building. So now as the Grixis Lord at my two local stores, I feel sort of Obligated!

I am actually writing up a draft for my next article. it will likely be a "how to" of sorts for grixis decks. Im thinking I will try to have it up around Tuesday (so as to have it one week from the day that this was posted). Depending on how that goes, I may start writing something for you guys every week. Would you want to see a more control-y type of how to, or midrange? Im sure I could actually do both if you guys want.

I think most prefer control. I know I do..... Didn't like how the deck preformed as midrange at one point but it could've just been a terrible deck. Lol.

lol I have had some success in the past as a midrange deck, mostly right after theros came out. but I think I will focus on control. It is my most successful type of grixis build so far, so that should make it easier to talk about. I might still write a few paragraphs about midrange for those who want to take that route. we will see how things go.

I have also had more success with grixis as control, than say midrange. I also had quite a bit of success with grixis theros drop, until the meta sort of evened out and I decided to just play something different. I changed because I wanted to play a different style of deck and not on the fact that I was doing poorly; quite the opposite.

Journey Grixis Control - I've been playing around with this. I've got a very aggressive meta, so this deck can really clean up, but I've built it to be able to deal with threats suck as Mono Black and Mono Blue as well. I don't feel favoured at all in G1 vs other control decks, but I can sideboard into a very favourable matchup.

Slaughtered by the Storm (top 8 FNM) Took this to FNM this week with some decent results. I love grixis but it's been hard to find a good balance for the deck, partially because of the mana needed (lots of UU BB and RR in the cards we need). Would be welcome to some tips.

Looking at a couple new ones..... Silence the Believers could be good for a god killer..... 2 black but most have predominant black mana bases. Also for a couple more you could 2-for-1.

Nightmarish End could be OK as well, especially when alot of the RTR stuff rotates. I for one hold 3-5 cards in hand most the time...... It's also an instant and isn't expensive. And kills gods.

I like Silence the Believers , but I personally find it a bit slow. I have been testing with one copy in the main, and it is okay sometimes, but 4 mana for a removal spell is a bit much in my opinion. granted, it is necessary sometimes to remove an active god, but if your opponent's god is active, you are likely doing something wrong anyway.

We have no way to remove a non creature god though.

A lot of the time we don't need to, though. we have so much removal that we can simply keep them off devotion. enchantment based devotion could be an issue, but there aren't many enchantments that aren't also creatures or artifacts, so we still have access to removal for those.

I played against an orzhov humans deck that utilized Athreos, God of Passage quite well. I beat him 2-0. Anger of the Gods prevents the athreos trigger, and even though the athreos was on the field the whole game, I was able to work around him. Now, some of the gods can be more difficult due to the incremental advantages they give, like Thassa, God of the Sea and Keranos, God of Storms . but we can race those if need be. not to mention that we have bounce spells like Cyclonic Rift so we have another chance to take it from their hand or counter it.

You may be right, it may not be best for us but I would like to test Silence the Believers . It can kill a god and other creatures if you have excess mana. It seems good in theory. Time will tell.

@phaze08: That's only if the "god" becomes a creature. Take Xenagos, God of Revels for example. Rarely will he become a creature but he affects each and every creature that enters the battlefield after him. Since he's not a creature you can't exile him with Silence the Believers .

I see what your saying harrydemon117 but as I said we have no way to get rid of an enchantment mode god for good aside from countering available to us in these colors.

Sounds ambitious, but the whole OP doesn't address the Mono Black elephant in the room.This deck needs to beat both Black Devotion decks and U/W Control...which is probably why it can't happen.

My build hasn't had much trouble against MBD @MrDaBucket.

I have plenty of ways to deal with Pack Rat in my build (if I come across one that still runs it) and since they are a slower midrange deck, control decks thrive on those.

U/W control is about a 55/45 in my favor as I can sit back until I get a Duress or Thoughtseize and disrupt their plans.

@MrDaBucket I haven't had any issues with U/W control at all, mostly due to Slaughter Games , Rakdos's Return , Thoughtseize and Duress . MBD has only ever posed a problem to me with Grixis if I can't kill Pack Rat right away. I have plenty of ways to kill it, but sometimes I just don't get to them fast enough or at the right time since they have Thoughtseize and Duress to get rid of the removal from my hand before they play the rat. So really it's close to 50/50 against MBD for me.

The bigger issue is, while we have a great selection of cards, we don't have a lot of great ways to dig to what we need when we need it. I'm currently testing out Izzet Charm for this, as well as running Quicken to speed up my removal against hasty creatures, or even just to Divination on their turn. But the lack of something like Sphinx's Revelation and any true Wrath of God effects hurts us pretty hard right now.

I bet everyone would run right over to Grixs if Damnation ever got a reprint in standard ;)

@harrydemon117 Absolutely! It would give grixis exactly what it needs right now. Hell, I'd even take Barter in Blood . I think that would do just fine to fill the gap that grixis needs with a four-drop reset since we can already kill their little guys on turns 2 and 3, a two-for-one four mana removal would be plenty. Unfortunately the closest things to that we have are Anger of the Gods , Drown in Sorrow and Far / Away . None of which are quite good enough in the current meta to really make up for the lack of a wrath effect.

it's one more mana, but Far / Away has worked REALLY well for me. I'm still looking for a better replacement, but it is another answer to Blood Baron of Vizkopa and Fiendslayer Paladin on top of Devour Flesh

you guys forgot about Extinguish All Hope as a board wipe, yes its a 6 mana spell that kills everything except for enchantment creatures, but most enchantment creatures are actually gods, so a board wipe wouldn't stop them anyway.

Extinguish All Hope won't kill Aegis of the Gods , Boon Satyr , Brain Maggot , Courser of Kruphix , Eidolon of Blossoms , Chromanticore , Eidolon of Countless Battles , Gnarled Scarhide , Herald of Torment , Hypnotic Siren , Master of the Feast , Mogis's Warhound , Nighthowler , Nyx-Fleece Ram , Satyr Firedancer , Spirit of the Labyrinth , or any God.

We didn't forget about it. We just know that spending 6 mana should kill everything dead and not leave us having only done half the job.

very few of those cards are actually being played in high end decks however, U/W control runs 2 Nyx-Fleece Ram and some jund decks play Courser of Kruphix and Herald of Torment , R/W burn doesnt even play Satyr Firedancer and some mono black/ golgari decks run Nighthowler & Gnarled Scarhide , other than that none of the other enchantment creatures listed are even played

Right. But for 6 mana, you could be doing much more efficient things. Why even risk it in the first place when Grixis already has solid options?

That, and 6 mana is slow. Against the deck where you'd need it most, it wouldn't matter.

I've seen PLENTY of Brain Maggot s in sideboard, and Courser of Kruphix is played in ALL green midrange decks like Gruul or even Jund Monsters. The synergy between him and Domri Rade is disgusting!

BTW, I'm 9-0 while testing online with my current Grixis build. Just wish I could find room for one more Keranos, God of Storms in the main deck

I'm also starting to wonder if we even NEED Hero's Downfall in Grixis. We already have PLENTY of destroy creature removal and counterspells/hand disruption for planeswalkers, so I think we can do without it. What do you guys think?

I think Hero's Downfall is necessary. I personally run 3 and 2 Dreadbore . I have seen that PWs can be difficult to deal with If you dont remove them immediately. They can generate an enormous amount of advantage in a very short time. also, hand disruption can't beat a top decked Elspeth, so we have to have some number of answers for the worst case scenario

True, but that's what our counterspells are for.

Through testing, it seems to me that using removal for creatures (when applicable) and saving the counterspells for planeswalkers/draw engines is the most beneficial.

I know this is the ideal scenario and if everything lined up exactly how we want it we would never lose a game of Magic. I think having Dreadbore as back up should be good enough and not requiring us to use Hero's Downfall as well.

Let's face it, we already want to run double colored 3 CMC spells in Anger of the Gods and Dissolve , so why add a third to the mix and chance inconsistency? Either we should change from Dissolve to something like Psychic Strike , or change Hero's Downfall to something else. Since black is our most versatile color for removal, it only fits here.

Lord knows we don't want to drop Anger of the Gods as then we are defenseless against aggressive decks. Drown in Sorrow is a valid argument, but not every aggro deck is going to be chuck full of x/2 creatures. Besides, Athreos, God of Passage and Pharika, God of Affliction play with creatures in the graveyard so the exile clause is even more relevant I feel.

Personally Psychic Strike works just fine for me, its easy to cast and stops anything. Between Hero's Downfall and Anger of the Gods I dont have issues with mana except maybe once I couldn't cast anger as soon as I needed to but in a turn or two I cast and stabilized. Not a big deal. I think adding Dissolve into the mix would cause issues but as I said Psychic Strike works just fine and its easy to cast.

It all comes down to what your "primary colors" are...if you're heavy black/red then Hero's Downfall ain't a thing as you will have Anger of the Gods as backup but if you're heavy U/B then Anger becomes harder to cast

My build is a pretty balanced mix of the three colors. I don't think I have ever had an issue with mana screw yet. My thing is that you can't always count on having a counterspell, so there should be a backup plan just in case. I understand what you are saying, but I would rather have a slightly higher chance of being mana screwed than just not having the removal. besides, I run Underworld Connections as well, so I already need the double black.

Hmmm is yours more of a midrange/tap out strategy CommanderOfBolas?

Mine is a draw-go control deck so taking extra damage from UC and shock lands adds up to quick for me. Plus I use Keranos, God of Storms so I run Inspiration to allow me to draw up to 3 cards on my opponent's turn (or else deal them a free 3 damage thanks to Keranos, God of Storms mwahahahah)

Wait, scratch that Inspiration bit, I just remembered it's on each on My turns and not "first card each turn"....dammit

Haha. Anyway, My build is a control build. the damage actually does.nt bother me too much. the hyper agro matchup can be rough, but more often than not I still win. I actually haven't lost a match online yet. here is my rough list: God of Grixis

I have made a small change or two that I haven't updated yet, but it is pretty accurate.

Just a heads up guys, My next article will be delayed due to me having to evacuate from Camp Pendleton. There was a pretty big fire coming toward the neighborhood where I live, so it may be another couple days before I get it up. also, I have 2 college finals tomorrow. So hopefully Ill have it up sometime this weekend

Good luck on the finals and hopefully your home will be intact when you return!

hmm i need to pay more attention to articles... wouldve poasted long time ago.

What's this about being unable to do anything about non-creature Gods? Kiora's Dismissal sends them back to the hand so you can counter it next time. Sure, it's not optimal, but I see this card being in a lot of Control decks post-rotation. If nothing else this should be in every Grixis Sideboard now that Constellation is a thing.

.... Though come to think of it, that might end up being counter-productive.

Constellation works against Tempo as a mechanic, at least to some degree.

Well I'll be...

Could be useful to follow into a Rakdos's Return but for now we have Cyclonic Rift thats alot better in my opinion.

Sorry the new article isnt up yet. I decided to put it up after gameday to give you guys an idea of how good it can be. Ill try to have it up sunday morning or saturday night

More on Grixis? Is it longer than this one? I only started MtG back in December and up until a few days ago I thought three-coloured decks were way out of my league. Grixis and Dega seem to be the ones for me, so I'd really love some starting help on this.

I'll be talking about post-rotation since I'm not too familiar with RtR.

Someone said something about never getting Worst Fears off. There's always Oracle of Bones . Even if it Tribute is paid you get a hasted 5/3 out of it. Hell, if you have a Scry-heavy deck you can use Worst Fears with Riddle of Lightning . Of course, Oracle of Bones 's ability could apply to any spell, like Fated Conflagration or something. This is a turn before Stormbreath Dragon , by the way.

As for the lack of Rakdos's Return ... I dunno, man. Closest I can think of is Tormented Thoughts on something like Guardians of Meletis . Not exactly competitive, but maybe the lack of it won't be so bad since Sphinx's Revelation is gone too.

I have a question, though. Like I said, I only just started doing tri-colour decks, and I was wondering how viable Aggro Control/Tempo (someone want to explain these?) is with the mana-fix that Theros has. I was specifically thinking about Riptide Chimera and Crystalline Nautilus (maybe?) and how those would mix with mono-B Aggro -style Grixis. The casting-cost is more forgiving than Master of the Feast and Herald of Torment so they shouldn't be a hassle to cast. There could be enough flying to justify a Swan Song /Boon of Erebos protection combo. Of course, the Riptide Chimera needs something to bounce, which I guess would be Aqueous Form or Gnarled Scarhide .

Tempo isn't frowned upon here, is it? All you people seem like die-hard Control fans.

Yes, my next article will be more in depth about grixis, and it will include a deck tech of my game day deck and its performance. Tempo is certainly a viable play style, but this particular article was meant to specifically discuss control. I am not a huge fan of tempo decks. In Modern, they are much more viable because you are typically drawing cards with your tempo spells (like Remand ). Tempo is all about stalling your opponent until you can win, but in standard, you run out of gas before you can really do that (well, with grixis you do).

So, uh, it's Monday.

He's busy, give it a rest

I apologize for the delay. Im having some computer issues. Im pn my phone now

So as long as my computer doesn't decide to crap out on me again, the article should be up later today. Again, I apologize for the wait.

Opinions on Turn / Burn ? I've been running it in my Grixis Control but haven't had huge success, considering /maybe/ switching it out for Silence the Believers or some other form of extra removal.

I don't run it at all. I think it is decent, but not great. Also, the guy that put up this aarticle isn't on the site anymore, so that's why the next one hasn't been put up. im trying to get this fixed, so it will be up soon. thanks for being patient, guys

Mm, that's what I figured too. Here's what I am currently running just in case anybody has ideas/just wants to look at it for reference: Grixis Control

CommanderOfBolas aren't YOU the one who put up this article? I'm confused lol.

I wrote the article, but I cant actually put it up. its not like starting a thread in the forums. articles have to be approved by administrators and put up by them. its meant to keep the articles clean and not dumping ground like the forums are

OK so you can just get another mod to approve your work right? Lol

He's trying, give it a rest.

Ive already talked to epochalyptic, im just waiting to hear back from him. as soon as I do, ill update you guys.

Anublet90 I was just confused lol.

So I got to thinking...one of Grixis' main problems is that there is no lifegain options other than Elixir of Immortality usually. What if we went with using Trading Post as a way to gain some life, and incorporate some more artifacts to get more value out of it?

Possible win cons: Haunted Plate Mail , the keyrunes, Hammer of Purphoros ,

"Draw engines": Codex Shredder , Prophetic Prism

Board wipes/enchantment hate: Ratchet Bomb

Mana fixing: Darksteel Ingot , Chromatic Lantern , Prophetic Prism

The goat tokens would also protect us against Mogis, God of Slaughter (ok well 1/2 the life loss instead) and would be infinite blockers in front of things without trample/flying

Just use Crypt Incursion for insane life gain against aggro and midrange, against control you can just out-control them so that's no problem. Lol. There's no sense in changing up your whole deck lol

Eh, was just thinking "outside the box" lol

I just don't like the idea of changing up my Deck's identity just because of a couple challenges. This is the way I like to play magic and the colors I like. I do what I can with what's available but hey, these are my favorite colors and my preferred play style. I also like a challenge. :D

Yes, we are viewed as the underdog alot but I do quiet well myself. :P

Just curious, is this other article still coming....? Any updates?

Honestly, Im not really sure. The admin still hasn't gotten back to me. he told me to email him, I did, and I haven't gotten anything back.

It was Epochalyptik, right?

I didn't respond because I saw this posted and the openings were effectively the same. I figured you'd just posted the article.

So that means you can post it right, CommanderOfBolas? :D

The last email I saw was from May 5

Epochalyptik: This article was the one I sent to you. My new one is the one I asked you about when Matsi883 left the site. you directed me to KrazyCaley, but he never replied to my email. How do I put up the article?

Email me the info and I'll get it sorted for you.

Okay. I need to make a few changes to the article though, as it needs some updating. I will get it to you ASAP. Thanks Epoch, you are the best!

So, it's been another two weeks, any news on this yet?

i sent the email to epoch. havent gotten anything back yet. i know he is really busy, so im not too worried about it. i think ill just share the article through a deck. give me like 2 minutes

This is the article saved into a deck description:

I hope this helps you guys a bit. I did a deck tech, a brief run through of the basics of what grixis is, and my personal success.