Your thoughts on Stubborn Denial and Murderous Cut ? Both sound like very powerful spells to be playing, the former probably in fatty combo decks and the latter in decks like Jund.

I really like Murderous Cut , but not in Legacy Jund. When you're running Bloodbraid Elf , you'd ideally like it to keep your spells to ones that can be cascaded into. Also, because Jund heavily relies on Goyf and DRS and has plenty of removal options available to it, why would you want to Delve to cast it?

I really like Stubborn Denial in select situations and think that it'll probably see play as maybe a one or two of in Sneak and Show.

Uh, I'm not actually seeing the Dig Through Time (s) in that Vintage BUG list. Maybe you linked the wrong one? The only Dig I'm seeing in Vintage on mtgtop8 was the PW Control list from that same event.

Either way, it's certainly something. I don't actually know how to feel about it in Vintage, especially in decks that are trying to Yawgmoth's Will for the kill. I guess a singleton copy can't hurt too much though, but I'd still have to see it in action to know if the upside is worth it.

Yeah, it was supposed to be Cruise in the BUG list and Dig in the PW Control list.

I think in Vintage there are enough cards you are willing to exile (lands, random Abrupt Decay s and Lightning Bolts! and Snapcaster Mage s and whatnot) that those cards are very playable.

In Legacy Jund, one mana unconditional removal is very powerful. Similar to green Delver decks, you can sort of rely on the opposing graveyard to pump your Goyfs, while against other decks using Delve the Cuts can be decreased after sideboarding if needed.

Yeah, see, the issue there is, what if your opponent has delved their own graveyard?

Which would you rather run:
Murderous Cut
or Terminate ?

I would prefer Terminate if i am running goyf, snap, shaman, or anything else that relies on the graveyard...

It's a pretty obvious nombo that cards that take advantage of the graveyard like Goyf, Deathrite and nimble mongoose don't play with with Delve strategies. Though you can delve away your own yard, which can work as a reverse combat trick against an opponent's goyf, your opponent still has a graveyard and there goyf doesn't become a 0/1 just because delve is suddenly being used again in eternal formats. And even if a deck wants to run Goyf's or deathrites alongside treasure cruise or other new flashy delve spells, one can still chose to carefully delve away only certain things when afforded the chance to maintain the p/t of their Goyfs, or leave a spare land to ramp off a deathrite, or just keep as close to threshold as possible. I just think you were exaggerating a bit with the delve mechanic in general and how it's going to effect eternal formats, it will effect things, but Goyf won't stop being played, neither will deathrite or mongoose. Delve was already a mechanic, it just got reprinted onto new cards in Khans. Tombstalker is a great example of an existing delve card that could have seen play this whole time in eternal formats in an attempt to undermine the value of cards like Goyf or Deathrite, but really it can't even come close to stopping them. Delve is a good mechanic, but it's not really oppressive in the ways you were implying, even with the newer cards like Treasure Cruise .

tl;dr Delve doesn't invalid Goyf, deathrite or Mongoose. If it did it would be busted.

WhiteEyesCloudedbyH8 -- I think you're overstating how much delve existed before, there were literally 3 cards, 2 of which have no interest to legacy whatsoever, Deathrattle and Logic Knot , and one of which is still probably not playable, but is closer, Tombstalker . While he is a fatty for potentially , he's not as fast onto the field as other fatties for 2, such as Tarmogoyf . Additionally, black in legacy is often played as a combo color or a support color, rather than as a main fatty color. I'd say don't underestimate the impact of select delve cards, as they'll make a mark or two, I'm relatively certain.

It still doesn't invalid cards like Goyf, Deathrite and Mongoose for the reasons I listed above, which is my main point.

I was just looking at a High Tide list that was running Dig Through Time .

I've honestly never known what a High Tide deck is until yesterday, and damn, does it ever seem like a fun deck.

Playing a game so close the opponent will win next turn only to turn it around and laugh at them while you mill their whole library that turn.

But I am truly impressed with Khans, I can easily see it being the next ZEN... dare I say it maybe better?

It's refreshing to see a set that has a major effect on eternal formats outside of one card (Abrupt Decay in RTR, Spirit of the Labyrinth in THS), the last two sets have felt a little underpowered in bigger formats. This set is shaping up to be the biggest powerhouse we've had since Innistrad.

I think running those delve draw cards are just good on their own. People aren't really trying to say I think that Treasure Cruise will "invalidate" Tarmogoyf and Deathrite, so much that it is just a bonus gravy to hinder them a bit on top of what they do already. In other words the main point of playing the delve cards is what they do when they resolve, not just what is involved in casting it. The delving away cards out of the yard is just a plus not the goal.

I am running 3 Dig Through Time in Solidarity (instant speed High Tide combo) and oh man are they amazing. They make snapcaster a little worse, but I'm still running 3 of him.

Also, maybe Murderous Cut in U/B delver. could be a thing. No more playing 4 life to Snuff Out after you take 4 from drawing it with Bob.

@corythackston Ya forgot Deathrite Shaman . How does one forget Deathrite Shaman ?

Deathrite Shaman and Tarmogoyf are seen in the same decks, so I really was just pointing out that delve will have a similar level of effect in those regards.

People will be able to build and play around delving their own yards despite playing cards like Goyf and Deathrite.

@WhiteEyesCloudedbyH8

I'd just like to point out that the one RUG Delver deck that top 8d on Sunday ran Young Pyromancer instead of Nimble Mongoose because the pilot though it was no longer an option because of Treasure Cruise ..... Tarmogoyf was also only a 3 of.

A better way of phrasing it would be, 'They cut one Goyf', based on the Delve cards being used in the deck.

I just did some digging around on mtgtop8.com and I found more than a few Canadian Threshold Decks that ran Treasure Cruise + Tarmogoyf . I found a list with 4x Goyf and 2x cruise, I'd look for more but i don't really care, just wanted to sign off with a legit source for my point, which is that these new delve spells Will Not invalidate Goyf, even when ran together.

I pointed out that I felt your exaggerated opinion of Delve cards negatively effecting Goyf was just that, exaggerated, and I feel I've validated that point.

I never said it would invalidate, I said it would be interesting to see how decks adapt to the delve cards and questioned whether or not Goyf decks would be at a crossroads. I did note that I saw a BUG list with Gopyf and Cruise did very well recently as well.

I will also note that Deathblade and U/R Delver were the popular decks of the event, considering that the last event I was at was BUG and RUG Delver everywhere, I feel like I was prettymuch on the money.

tl;dr: read more carefully before assuming my argument is something that it's clearly not.

The first time I read this article, I got the impression you were implying that Delve was going to invalidate Goyf's, looking back I see you weren't saying that definitively, more situationally. So the point I just made above is irrelevant.

Yeah that is along the lines of what I said, about what I thought you meant 4 days ago.

zyphermage, thank you, sir or madam.