ChiefBell Looks like it, just updated with some more cards, as not too many builds are up-to-date.

It doesn't even need that much protection because you essentially can't respond to anything in the deck except the original tap ability of the druid I think?

There was a certainly a version I saw where the opponent had basically one chance to respond or lost.

You have a chance to remove the Hermit Druid before the ability goes off, with Lightning Bolt or whatever, and then you only have one other chance in the Necrotic Ooze build, which is countering the Dread Return. Therefore, you should run cards to protect those 2 spots, as everything else is covered.

Precisely.

@DMR: I acknowledge that combat is a lot more dangerous than just comboing off and winning instantly (I say as much in the primer). And that there are many more chances to respond. That's why Caller of the Claw is merely a backup combo. I'm not sold on Caller of the Claw as the backup combo, but there does need to be a backup. The point of the deck is still to combo with Necrotic Ooze.

Memory's Journey and Pull from Eternity were in the deck before, but I moved them out to make more room for the backups (Memory's Journey is actually still in the sideboard).

I don't run Scion of the Ur-Dragon because it's a dead giveaway that I'm running Hermit Druid, and it's also not capable of killing every opponent. The dead space issue is also something that has to weigh on the backup decision; right now, most backup combos require two engine pieces and some kind of finisher (see both the Caller of the Claw and Laboratory Maniac options).

Cabal Therapy is in a lot of Hermit Druid decks, and I'd have to test it to be sure. Gitaxian Probe is comparable. It may not force a discard, but it cantrips and can be cast for free. And the likelihood of hitting a critical card on the first cast of Cabal Therapy is pretty low, effectively forcing you to recast it (the flashback cost is also somewhat offputting for a deck that needs creatures to sacrifice for its main combo enabler). The upside is that you could just hit two players to check for responses.

On the topic of flashback in general: I certainly recognize the utility, but I would need to playtest the deck in order to determine whether those cards warrant the deck space. Qasali Pridemage allows me to get rid of problematic artifacts and enchantments through the combo.

Cephalid Illusionist is the best alternative to Hermit Druid; do you have an alternative?

I see your point about the colorless mana rocks. The deck will have to be tested for me to know for sure what to do with them.

The CMC 2 counterspells have already been highlighted for removal (see the primer) due to their cost. There are other alternatives that focus on permanent protection, but I don't know if many options remain for counterspells.

The Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Mogg Fanatic combo are, again, in as backups. Having not yet played this deck, I'm struggling to determine whether they're necessary as backups or not.

@ChiefBell: There are two primary points of failure: Hermit Druid and Dread Return. There are replacement options within the deck, but I'd need to make sure I found them and had them in hand before combing.

Phantasmagorian can help get the stuff out of your hand if you don't have an imp...

Putrid Imp is better because I can actually play it and because I can activate its ability through Necrotic Ooze. Phantasmagorian is just impossible to cast.

No no no...

After you mill your library, you can discard unwanted combo pieces in your hand. You never actually need/want to cast it.

I understand that benefit, but I can already do that with Putrid Imp either before I combo or through Necrotic Ooze.

Ahh, forgot to read that.

But what about it as a backup plan?

It's debatable. I think its inclusion mostly hinges on other cards not being a better use of deck space. I'd prioritize protection for Hermit Druid before adding another discard enabler, I think.

I think what scorpix is trying to say is that in the situation where you have drawn into Necrotic Ooze and have access to Hermit Druid but not Putrid Imp you can still play and mill with Druid, trigger Phantasmagorian's ability to pitch the Necrotic Ooze and then Dread Return.

Basically, it's the catch 22 situation where You need the Necrotic Ooze / Dread Return to be in the graveyeard but can't rely on Putrid Imp's ability because yo udon't have access to it. Even if you mill, its like you need the Ooze in play to get Imp's ability to discard the Ooze to reanimate with dread to get the Ooze in play....

Super janky idea for an instant-speed Hermit Druid: Savage Summoning. It works for only this purpose, but it's entirely immune to countermagic.

What enpc said.

Also for when you have Dread Return in hand.

Also, how do you feel about Annul? It seem nice since most grave hate (at least that I know about) is either an artifact or enchantment.

Annul is something I'd have to decide upon based on playtesting; it's not the kind of card I'd include without knowing the percentage of games in which it'd be relevant.

I'm going to throw in my $0.02 for the Maniac combo over the Saffi combo since, as enpc pointed out, the Saffi combo allows your opponents to put things onto the battlefield with Crypt Champion, and the Maniac combo allows for utility such as Grand Abolisher or Snapcaster Mage targeting Pact of Negation.

Also, an alternate combo: Dread Return targeting Sun Titan, who brings back Dance of the Dead/Animate Dead, which brings back Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. Make a copy of Sun Titan, bringing back the other enchantment which brings back Fatestitcher. Untap Kiki-Jiki to make infinite Fatestitchers, ending in a Sun Titan copy bringing back Goblin Bombardment for infinite damage. It does have more chances to respond to than the Maniac or the Saffi combo, but it does use two pieces compared to three.

I really like that idea nighthawk101

Thanks for this decklist! Been looking all over for an updated 5c hermit druid combo deck! I dont own a Cromat, so I can run any 5 color commander correct?

Any recent changes?

It seems likely that I'll make the switch over to Laboratory Maniac as the backup wincon because it's self-sufficient and requires only three slots in the deck. I suppose if I added Dance of the Dead as a backup/utility card, then the combo nighthawk101 proposed would require only two slots (for Sun Titan and Goblin Bombardment, but I don't really like that it requires three different reanimation effects in order to go off.

@ibTRUE: Stay subscribed to this list to see the changes. I'll be updating it as the discussion progresses (and I'll try to bring it up to date later today if I have time.

There's a section in the primer that deals with the selection of general. You can technically run any 5c general you want, but there are unique subtleties to each one.

One commander you didn't list in your primer is Reaper King. I have heard him described as the only 4 colour commander in magic (usually because people don't like red) and he can be interesting as a beatdown general.

I still feel slightly concerned that the entire pivot point of the deck revolves around Dread Return. And yes, I understand that combo decks like this are always going to have an Achilles heel. But hte concern with this one is the amount of graveyard disruption that is seen in EDH. Its very uncommon to sit down at a game and see none whatsoever. Even in the form of a Deathrite Shaman or something. But I also get that its impossible to build the perfect deck.

hey Epochalyptik, any more thoughts on Phantasmagorian?

I initially had Reaper King as the general before I remembered how to read and realized that it didn't provide supporting removal because its ability only triggers for other Scarecrows (and it can't be copied by Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker).

I'll add Phantasmagorian to the maybeboard for now. I'll probably do a mini-update and see if it can make the cut (there's not a ton of deck space to spare, but a good case has been made for its value). Do you think it's safe to replace Putrid Imp with Phantasmagorian, or should both be included?

As for Dread Return, that's also a primary concern of mine. However, other reanimation spells can serve the same purpose as long as you find one and budget the mana to cast it.

And, in my experience, dedicated graveyard hate is pretty uncommon. While some decks do include it (Deathrite Shaman is a good example to have mentioned), I have found that not much of it really comes out at the competitive level. Now, my observations are also based on my experience with Dominus - Dreamcrusher Edition, which doesn't draw any graveyard hate, so maybe my assessment is misleading. I'd assume that people would bother to find their anti-graveyard cards if they knew I was playing Hermit Druid.

Yeah, the amout of Scavenging Oozes that come out of the woodwork suddenly is disturbing. With a Hermit Druid deck at our local league, even as a Saffi Eriksdotter deck with an irrational fear of having it Bribery'd I'm still running one.

As for the question of Putrid Imp, I actually think you can cut it. The only time you NEED it is when Dread Return / Necrotic Ooze is in hand. And then its a matter of playing the imp and discarding. But then yo uneed the imp. Whereas after you mill yourself, short of graveyard hate, you will have access to Phantasmagorian. The imp however you need to draw before the fact. My only concern is not having enough cards in hand to discard with, but if thats not an issue then I would take Phantasmagorian over the imp yeah. The best thing would be to do a bunch of play tests.