thinkoriginal I respect that. Marath is one of my favorite commanders. I used to play her as a casual Vorthos style deck based around party-ing and having a generally good time. It was a ton of fun to play. This deck looks sweet though. I love stax and hatebear strategies. I recently made a Derevi Hatebear deck because I thought it might be less oppressive than the original stax build I had in mind, and maybe help me not be "that guy" at my LGS.

-Important Update-

I've added this to the deck description.

WarSpaniel Always looking for optimization, I have made one small change that I think will improve the deck. Pyroblast is a very important card, so doubling up on its effect was something I wanted. In order to cut a card for Red Elemental Blast, I found that the weakest card in the deck was Hardened Scales. While it did provide value, it was not good as a standalone card, and I often found myself not happy drawing it.

Then I remembered a line of play that involved Ashnod's Altar, Earthcraft, and repeatedly casting Marath, but didn't need Scales. The only stipulation is needing one of each of the three basics. Assuming we have Altar, Earthcraft, and Marath (for this example he has been cast once and is a 3/3. For a bigger than 3/3 Marath, skip to step 2) in play, and are either tapped out or have at least one mana available with one of each Basic, the combo can be executed as follows:

1. We either use the one mana, or tap Marath with Earthcraft to untap a Basic for mana, to remove a +1/+1 counter from Marath to make a 1/1 token. We then use Earthcraft with the token to untap the Basic again.

2. Once Marath has two +1/1 counters on it (or is an X/2), sac the token to Altar to make another two mana, and remove the other two counters from Marath, making two more tokens and sending him back to the Command zone. Untap the other two Basics with those two tokens. Sac the requisite number of tokens to the Altar and tap all three Basics in order to repeatedly recast Marath. Start again at step 1.

3. Each time we loop steps 1 and 2, we end up with exponentially more tokens and an ever-increasing in size Marath. Once he has enough +1/+1 counters to activate the damage-mode of his ability to kill the table, we sac the tokens to make the requisite mana we need to win!

Thank you for all your help and your overall patience. I really appreciate it and am grateful. But I’m a little bit confused on a part of the Marath combo line. (Earthcraft+Ashnod’s Altar, + 3 basic lands in play. Are you saying this combo can be executed if all three of your basic lands are tapped(Forest,Plains,Mountain) with Marath on the field? Or do you need all three basics untapped, with Marath on the field and one additional mana source. I’m really sorry about the confusion. I’m sure it will be a little easier to follow in paper.

WarSpaniel

For the Altar/Earthcraft line, it can be initiated from a state of all 3 Basics tapped (using Marath with Earthcraft to untap a Basic), or with one available mana otherwise from another source. With that one mana, we can

1. Generate a token from Marath

2. Tap the token to untap a Basic and tap the Basic for one mana

3. Sac the token to Ashnod's Altar for two generic mana

4. Using the two mana to generate two tokens with Marth, sending him back to the Command Zone, and use the tokens with Earthcraft to untap the other two Basics

5. Sac a token for two generic mana (or however many tokens are needed to sacrifice to Altar in order to recast Marath)

By completing this particular part of the loop, along with Earthcraft untapping our Basics, we will always have an exponentially increasing number of tokens, giving us the requisite RGW and generic mana to cast Marath again and again. So long as you remove +1/+1 counters from Marath to make 1/1 tokens to the point where Marath is an X/2, which in most cases means he only has 2 counters left on him, barring something like an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

1. Repeat this loop each time you cast Marath and you will end up with exponentially more tokens each time

Each time you recast Marath, he will enter the battlefield with a number of +1/+1 counters equal to the number of times that we have cast him, so Marath will sequentially ETB as a 3/3, 5/5, 7/7, etc.

1. Once you have recast Marath enough times for his +1/+1 counters to equal greater than the life total of all opponents combined, sacrifice the requisite number of tokens to Ashnod's Altar to make enough generic mana for you to remove enough +1/+1 counters from Marath to deal lethal damage to the entire table.

Thank you for all your help. I really appreciate it and am looking forward to playing this in paper.

what are your thought on the Auriok Salvagers + Lion's Eye Diamond + Marath, Will of the Wild combo?

Cbondsii

That's a cool combo. I like recasting Marath and using his first line of text for the kill, much like the Altar/Earthcraft combo. It doesn't have a specific land-requirement, and you get LED which is great fast-mana.

My only issue is that Auriok Salvagers is a dead card much of the time. It can get back countered/destroyed/sacced mana rocks and a few stax pieces, but it only combos with LED. It is also a 4 mana spell, and that slot is very tight, with Felidar Guardian having much more utility and combo potential.

Not saying it is a bad idea. I could see possibly taking out Academy Rector for Salvager and Lotus Petal for LED if you really wanted to run it.

What are the average amount of turns that this deck typically wins in? I was curious how it could win in turns 2-3 and what the exact hand/setup would need to be in order to achieve this. Also, I was curious if when executing the Earthcraft+Ashnod’s Altar combo how susceptible you are to removal/disruption. And when is the best time to execute said combo?

WarSpaniel

A typical turn 3 win would include fast-mana, a land, a 3-cmc creature, and Birthing Pod. For example a hand (we'll even assume two mulligans) consisting of:

Wooded Foothills

Grand Abolisher

Mana Crypt

Savannah

Ramunap Excavator

Birthing Pod

With this we can play Savannah, Mana Crypt, and Ramunap Excavator turn 1. Then, turn 2 we play Wooded Foothills and Birthing Pod, and even without activating it that turn, we could potentially combo off on turn 3.

Note that this is under goldfish conditions. At any point, our Crypt or Pod could be blown up or countered, and our chain disrupted with spot removal. It would also pay to play Abolisher and protect our combo.

While we and most other decks in cEDH have the potential to win on turns 1-3, that rarely happens due to interaction from the rest of the table. This is why our stax and interaction pieces are so important, and why slowing everyone else down before trying to combo off is often the better plan.

The Earthcraft/Altar combo is mostly weak to counter spells, but is fairly resilient otherwise due to being instant-speed. It is, however, the back-up plan. It is more something that we draw into incidentally, or tutored for after the fact, as we should be focusing on the Kiki-Jiki lines as much as possible. They are the fastest and require the least amount of board presence.

-Update-

While Wasteland can hit a few useful targets, without ways to continually recur it AND make multiple land drops per turn, it is rarely activated and is usually a candidate for a mulligan. I have cut it for a 5th Forest. This will help even out out the green needs while also benefiting Earthcraft and Arbor Elf.

I've been playing around with Lion's Eye Diamond in the place of Lotus Petal. It is really good with Birthing Pod, Survival, and Yisan, but is much less versatile than Petal. As of now, I feel the ability to cast Thalia turn one or emergency-casting Pyroblast outweighs easing a Survival-chain's mana cost.

Thanks again I really appreciate it and I hope you didn’t think I was being rude. I’ve been play testing it frequently on here and was wondering if there was an average turn you typically win on? I was just trying to see if I’m doing something wrong. Can the Earthcraft+Ashnod’s Altar line be interrupted with removal?(I.e. I’ll tap Marath with Earthcraft to untap my forest and with the ability on the stack they krosan grip Earthcraft)? Thank you for all your insight.

WarSpaniel

No no, I certainly didn't think you were being rude. I enjoy the fact that you like deck, and I love answering questions about it!

Typically when I goldfish, I'll win around turn 5 or 6. I try to play out and around stax pieces and cast interaction as if I have opponents, so unless I'm testing for speed, the "god hand" scenarios are not the norm.

The only type of removal that would stop the combo, apart from something with Split Second like Sudden Spoiling, Sudden Death, or Sudden Shock, would be Enchantment/Artifact removal targeting Altar or Earthcraft. Since Marath needs to be recast, the stack needs to clear each time and you could lose a combo piece at instant speed.

Analyzing this deck to this level has made me find a few weak spots, so I appreciate the chance to go as in depth as I have. Two small changes I am making, and I believe them to be about where I will leave it (until the meta changes and new/different stax pieces are needed), include:

1. Removing Static Orb for Sensei's Divining Top. Orb is a very strong stax piece. Too strong, in fact, for even us in many cases. It is very difficult to break parity on this Artifact without a commander who can tap it like Urza or Derevi, even with Seedborn Muse, Garruk, and Gaea's Cradle. Our dorks are how we get ahead on mana, and tapping them as well as Birthing Pod only serves to slow down our own plan. Divining Top, on the other hand, synergizes well with our 16 shuffle effects, as well as Enlightened Tutor, Sterling Grove, and Noxious Revival. Digging and card selection are also sorely lacking so this will be of great use.

2. Lotus Petal, while powerful, is unfortunately one-time-use. Getting a stax piece out early is great, but doing so repeatedly is much better. Gemstone Caverns, while risky, has much better upside, and with Lotus Cobra and Collector Ouphe, a softened floor. Drawing this after our opening hand is a downside, but in our opener it is a pre-game Mox Diamond (perfect for battling turn 0 Sushi-Hulk combos), and hurts less drawing it later than does the Diamond. This card is a fickle, but welcome, addition.

WarSpaniel Another thing to consider is that we are ultimately trying to control the speed of the game, and our lines of play are largely dictated by our opponents' strategies and choices. If you are goldfishing, but aren't getting the combos going or are simply generating value without actively advancing the gameplan, that is OK. cEDH games can go into much later turns, especially when everyone's combos are being shut down by both the other opponents interaction and your own stax pieces. If you goldfish to a turn 9 or 10 win, but have been casting relevant and powerful stax/interaction, that is how actual games sometimes go, so don't be discouraged! This deck rewards doing homework on the meta.

Thank you for all your insight and game analysis. I really appreciate it a lot. What do you mean by goldfishing? Thank you

WarSpaniel Goldfishing is just a term for playtesting by yourself, like you've been doing. It's really good practice so you can memorize your combo lines and get better at managing your mana.

And you're very welcome!

--Update--

With the release of Ikoria, a new and very powerful hatebear has been released. Drannith Magistrate shuts down not only the ability for opponents to cast their Commander, but it also shuts down many combos, such as Dramatic Scepter, Food Chain, and Gitrog Dredge. This shall take the place of Spirit of the Labyrinth, for while it loses the ability to be tutored by Enlightened Tutor and Sterling Grove, it gains the ability to be tutored by Imperial Recruiter and is an asymmetrical stax effect.

Also, two more fetchlands have been added in Bloodstained Mire and Flooded Strand. They have taken the place of Razorverge Thicket and a Snow-Covered Forest. These two land allow us to more easily search up basics for Earthcraft, and they also greatly benefit Sensei's Divining Top, Sylvan Library, Ramunap Excavator, and Lotus Cobra.

Have you considered adding in Mana Echoes or the new Cryptic Trilobite for the deck since they would both combo with cards like Hardened Scales with Marath’s abilities.

Joe_Ken_

I have considered Mana Echoes, and with previous iterations of this deck, which focused on winning through combos specifically involving Marath, it was almost in the list. As the deck has moved more towards focusing on Birthing Pod lines, Marath has become a form of creature removal, with his ability to combo being a last-resort alternate win condition.

This is what also happened with Hardened Scales. As the need to cast Marath lessened, the glaring lack of impact that Scales had became more and more magnified, and it was always the card I least wanted to see. Once I remembered Scales wasn't necessary for Marath to go infinite AND kill the table, it got cut entirely.

Cryptic Trilobite seems very interesting as a strong mana sink, but seeing as how it needs Hardened Scales in order to really combo, I don't think pairing a conditionally good card with a largely do-nothing card is worth the cuts required.

Good suggestions, though!

-Update-

Added the remaining fetchlands and switched out Tangle Wire for a faster, more relevant stax piece.

Removed:

Reflecting Pool

Brushland

Wooded Bastion

Exotic Orchard

Tangle Wire

Added:

Marsh Flats

Verdant Catacombs

Misty Rainforest

Scalding Tarn

Thorn of Amethyst

-Addendum Update-

Removed the Dryad Arbor/Green Sun's Zenith pairing for Worldly Tutor and Deafening Silence. GSZ is too restrictive, and Turn 1 -> Tutor for Arbor is too weak and non-impacting. The newer additions are far more useful.

I'm Japanese and I'm not good at English, so I'm sorry if I can't tell you. I found the Altar/Earthcraft line very helpful. And I think something similar to this could be done with Overgrowth, Market Festival, and Dawn's Reflection, but not for adoption?