I'll definitely have to add it to the list of cards that needs testing. One of the things that's definitely bugging me right now is just how little the deck is able to interact with opposing threats directly.

Hey - thanks for your comment! As I mentioned on the other build, I don't think Tinybones has tier-1 cEDH potential, at least not with existing cards. I usually use this database to keep up to date on the meta. As you can see, both of the mono-B decks are fast combo decks. Since Tinybones is technically part of an infinite-mana combo kill with her activated ability, I think it could be a tier-two or surprise deck, but it's hard to expect it to be very consistent when it has to go shields-down so often; "grindy" is not the color identity of mono-B in cEDH.

Once you add more colors, and none of them are blue, the question you have to ask yourself is: why aren't you just running Nath Stax? (Tinybones is in that list, which I'm happy to see!) In cEDH it's often pretty important to have a combo or combo enabler in your Command zone, and Nath is a one-card Stax wonder. Otherwise you're giving up a free card. Tymna is a pretty powerful enabler, but she doesn't do anything for your discard or lock plan.

My other thought is that, in these colors, there's really no reason to waste slots on The Rack-style wincons when you could just as easily slot in a combo. This Tayam deck might be a good jumping-off point, as it's a three-card combo with one card being your Commander. Or, you can run a Razaketh reanimation combo like this partner deck.

I think it's totally possible to run a stax/hatebear-y deck in these colors, but with cEDH you really should think about a more linear and quicker way to win. Even if you have everyone topdecking, when decks are built around value and combo engines in the command zone, it's hard to truly lock anyone out and you need to be able to take advantage of your position. I'd recommend taking out the Rack and Counters synergies and adding a combo and additional hatebears. Here's a deck that is also basically a list of the good white hatebears for the format. Think carefully about the types of wins you just can't fight through, and add those hatebears to the deck. (Uba Mask + Drannith Magistrate, for example, seems like a good lock combination to include.)

Again, not a cEDH expert, but looking at the competing decks in Abzan and Golgari colors is really helpful when considering what you're trying to do.

abby315

As a first go at porting a discard control concept into additional colors there's still a long way to go before I think this idea could be anywhere near as refined as the other 20 or 30 decks I regularly play in cEDH settings. Any scrap of information or knowledge is going to be helpful in getting this closer to where I'd like it to be and I'm happy to see I asked questions of the right people since I've now got some additional resources to take a look at for inspiration. Much appreciated.

As far as the question of why not just Nath Stax, well, it's been done. It's a fairly standardized list at this point and, in true competitive settings the deck is pretty lackluster (in fact very lackluster), posting a sub 15% win rate according to our data with just a hair under 100 total games recorded. Most dedicated stax concepts perform at a relatively similar level in competitive settings and we've accumulated well over 2000 games worth of tracked data within our playgroup at this point in the last almost 3 years. Mostly the ineffectiveness of these types of concepts comes from their inability to develop advantageous board states as quickly as the most powerful contenders in the meta (Nath actually does ok at this with access to green ramp sources), but also how slow and inconsistent many stax type pieces are in terms of performance. The best performing pieces are asymmetrical in effect and hate out universal lines of play that lead to advantageous game states for any deck (limiting card draw, limiting library searches, limiting graveyard access, limiting usability of a deck's ramp sources). At this point that's really the reason for choosing Tymna more than anything else, she's a proven commodity with a measurable net positive expected win rate value that enables play along the axis of attrition by acquiring additional resources to match opposing decks (the draw trigger is a very nice complement to the powerhouse control engine that is Geth's Grimoire+Words of Waste as well as it provides a means of consistently engaging the mass discard lines of play the turn those cards are played since she'll often be out on turn 2, though this play pattern is currently slower than our data suggests is competitively ideal).

I'm definitely not satisfied yet with a "no combo win line" list, that just strikes me as a stretch. There are some decks that do manage to perform decently with a primarily combat based game plan (Yuriko and Najeela certainly come to mind, though both prove the concept falls short of top tier) and this list might be capable of a similar feat, but it feels like there should be some combo oriented options that fit within the concept to run as side line game plans. I've definitely got some Raz reanimation lines on my radar for testing, the colors allow access to some other reanimation loop lines as well.

The Drannith Mask lock combo stikes me as interesting. I'll have to give that option a few looks in testing as well. My gut tells me that dividing attention to multiple lock out concepts will decrease overall deck performance consistency, but there's really no way to truly tell without getting in some games and acquiring some data.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Tinybones in mono black shells as well mate, there are certainly issues mono colored decks have from a competitive standpoint and I haven't worked with mono black enough to know these drawbacks as intimately as I do for mono green or mono blue.

jaymc1130 I greatly appreciate your interest in my lists. I'm going to respond to the comment you left me here, since you specifically asked for my opinion on this list. This list looks extremely well planned out! It looks like a pain in the a** to play against, lol, but those seem to be the decks I get the most enjoyment of; the ones that torture and punish my opponent. lol. I wish there was a way to play you remotely, this would certainly put my lists to the test. Unfortunately I don't play a ton of edh anymore primarily because my favorite decks got banned by my play group. I have 6 edh decks total, 3 are pre-cons that looked cool, and I have a Sliver deck using Sliver Legion as commander, an Olivia Voldaren deck that has never been beaten by my play group (hence it was banned) and my Zur the Enchanter deck which has also never been beaten and was banned by my play group. Then I dropped out of MTG for about 6 years altogether and I am now starting to come back into the fray. The best place to start, I have found over the years, to get reaquianted with Magic (I have dropped in and out of this game many times since I started playing in grade school!) is through Standard. The learning curve tends to be much less so my focus, at the moment, is Standard. I am slowly dusting off legacy decks of mine, Stasis/Prison is one of my faves, Millstone which seems better using a host of Standard cards, Pestilence, and I have been toying with the idea of throwing Necropotence into my Bad Girlfriend deck now that Cauldron Familiar isn't legal in Standard or Historic. But I digress and I apologize. Tinybones, Trinket Thief is a ridiculous card and it certainly checks off all the boxes: cheap to play, generates value, and the mana sink can be killer if properly synergized. I typically tend to avoid ALL mono-color decks. I can't remember who the heck I was reading, but I was reading an article by a former tournament heavy-weight and he was specifically talking about mono-colored decks in the old block tournaments, but I think his words of wisdom ring true here and what he said was something along the lines of, 'when you opt for a mono-color deck, you are essentially relegating yourself to the 9 best rare cards in that color identity. When you opt for a second color you are now looking at the 18 best rares in that color identity, and when you opt for 3 colors and you can make it work, you are usually able to capitalize on the best cards in the format.' Again, he was talking about block tournaments and probably also Standard format a bit, but I think his basic point holds true for most formats. A single color identity is self-limiting. Sure you could run an all-discard mono-black strat and probably have a good win-rate, but if you synergize that discard mechanic with something else the result is usually greater than the sum of it's parts. I could envision a deck with Tinybones as a commander, even with the huge gaps in my MTG knowledge due to my various sabbaticals I have taken from the game, that would be fun and possibly competitive to play, but is he strong enough to play in the #1 spot? Probably not. You have included him essentially as a wrench in a well-built deck, and that is probably where he belongs. Whenever I am choosing cards to go in a list, and I admit this strategy to deck building works a hell of a lot better in Standard where choices are finite, I tend to think of card choices this way: 'by including this what can I not include as a result?' In other words, is there a better card choice, a card that does something just a little bit better or synergizes/generates value from other card interactions better then what I have chosen? I'll give you an example. Essence Capture and Essence Scatter. Both cards counter a creature spell. One gives you a +1/+1 counter but requires while the other one costs an easier to swing without the +1/+1 counter. In a mono-blue deck the Capture is better obviously because if you have 2 mana open they are both going to be blue. In a 3 color deck where I am including a creature counterspell then I am almost certainly taking the Scatter because mana is already a problem for a 3 color deck and most 3 color decks I play with blue are control decks anyway, I need to spend mana efficiently and keeping 2 blue up might mean not casting another blue spell on my turn. Tinybones is fairly limited in his use. You only get 1 card whether your opponent discarded 1 card or 7, and his activated ability needs 2 things to happen: an empty hand, and 6 mana. Is there a better value piece you could include in place of Tinybones? Maybe. What else could synergize with Tinybones? Most of the best decks I have ever played won not because they contained individually powerful cards, although that does happen, they won because of synergy. My Bad Girlfriend deck is a perfect example. Essentially every card synergizes with and generates value off of every other card in some way or another. Most of the individual cards aren't particularly powerful and some are just downright costly (I'm looking at you Priest!) but when combined with other cards (Chandra, Woe Striker, Mayhem Devil, Bastion) become powerhouses in and of themselves. So back to Tinybones. In order to capitalize the most on Tinybones, you need to have him going off during your turn and your opponent's turn, so your goal should be to do just that. You seem like you are doing that fairly well. You have tutors and various ways to fetch what you need. The real question is, how often does Tinybones generate good value for the deck? Without playing it I can't say for sure, you would be a better judge for that since you have been playtesting for a week.