Bloodytrailz

I think Goblin Cratermaker would be a good choice in a more budget list.

I have been keeping an eye on RNA. So far nothing has really struck me as a very significant improvement though.

Essence Capture is a bit restrictive and honestly creatures aren't really an issue most of the time, so if anything 'non-creature' is what I'd rather see.

I'm already running around 10 flying creatures at the moment, so I don't think there's a great need for Skatewing Spy , and like you said, it's basically Herald of Secret Streams otherwise.

I actually do like Priest of Forgotten Gods , but I think having to sacrifice 2 other creatures is a bit demanding here and i feel that it's going to just be too many hoops to jump through most times. this is another card I'd probably play in a budget list but not otherwise.

If Burning-Tree Vandal was a loot effect and not a rummage effect I might be wiling to run it, but rummage is just not very good. Rummaging Goblin

Bedevil is basically a straight upgrade to Dreadbore but I'm not absolutely certain that I'm happy with the colored mana cost increases. It is a card I would want to test for a while and since it's like $7 I probably won't get around to testing it in the immediate future. I would say feel free to try it though since it doesn't seem too difficult to cast where it's only an extra which is our main color.

I recently started playing with a colorless eldrazi player, so i might buy a cratermaker just as a sideboard tech choice haha.

And yeah, i can definitely see what you mean with the 'jumping through the hoops' for the priest... my other concern with it is that the it's a tap effect but you would want to get a +1/+1 counter on it just for protection sake as well.

I definitely agree with the feeling like RNA didn't really introduce anything interesting, even the ones I put here felt like a big stretch (outside of bedevil)

Bloodytrailz

Yeah, most of Amonkhet block was a dud for the deck, it's not so bad though, it just means I don't have to pick anything to cut!

the tapping requirement on the priest is just adding to the hoops. I still say it's not a bad addition in a budget deck list though.

New ravnica has had quite a few nice cards, just not a ton for marchesa. Smothering Tithe is a great card though and i'm looking forward to putting it in a few of my decks.

Do you not like Sneak Attack

I_TappedWrong

Not really. I like Shifting Shadow better since shifting shadow guarantees I get a new creature every turn and is generally less threatening on the table.

Sneak Attack is ok if you have creatures in hand and enough card draw going on to keep your grip full, but if your hand looks like: Swamp, Yahenni, Mirage Mirror, Reality Shift you're pretty SoL with Sneak Attack.

I guess the main upside is that it lets you play the creature at instant speed, but that's usually not very relevant.

sneak attack requires more mana too.

I run shifting shadow too I guess I like having responses at instant speed as well. Shufting shadow you have to wait a whole turn for it to be on the board then you cant sac the creature because you want the upkeep trigger i guess im on thw opposite end and like the more utility sneak attack brings

Hey there fellow Black Rose player.

I love this deck and how much work you've put into it! I've seen your comments on Reddit and I like the way you've responded to the many comments on your build.

I've played Marchesa from the day she was spoiled and it's my all-time pet deck or decks (I've built so many variations!). So I've created a sub over on Reddit reddit.com/r/MarchesaTheBlackRose/ for all things Marchesa. It'd be great if you could come over and help create a space for this cool commander.

Cheers!

coldbricks sure thing.

I_TappedWrong Run both! :) see which one you like better in a variety of different situations

Hey Lokotor, Your Marchesa list is honestly one of the only few ones that I like on tappedout ha

I was wondering if I could get some advice. How can I improve my deck? I don't wnt to make it super OP. But more fun, and resilient. All the life loss to stay on the throne is sometimes, a lot of times, an issue. In multiplayer I may take out 1 person, 2 sometimes, but then I'm the next to go.

I'm thinking of swapping some cards. Big list of cards I'm considering. How have these cards worked for you if you've played with them?

Possibly Cut:

Dimir House Guard , Razaketh, the Foulblooded , Sidisi, Undead Vizier , Guildmages' Forum , High Market , Forge of Heroes , Opal Palace , Temple of Malice , Temple of Deceit

Possibly Add:

Helm of the Host - seems reall good, Aetherborn Marauder , Bloodhunter Bat , Filigree Familiar , Gray Merchant of Asphodel , Massacre Wurm , Nicol Bolas, the Ravager  ^Flip, Krav, the Unredeemed , Kokusho, the Evening Star , Keiga, the Tide Star , Judith, the Scourge Diva , Etali, Primal Storm , Hall of the Bandit Lord , Embargo , Coalition Relic

I know there are a few different types of cards in there, but you can see where it's going. I want to recoup some of the life loss, increase mana, make the deck a bit faster, etc.

WunderlichDrums

I've tried several of the cards from your cut list and I'm obviously not running several of them, my thoughts are Dimir House Guard and Sidisi, Undead Vizier are easily replaced by (better) tutors and you could easily make due with fewer tutors than i'm running, especially if you're trying to dial things back a bit.

I like Razaketh, the Foulblooded as a top of the curve finisher creature with upsides. for me i have a decent amount of artifact ramp to be able to cast him (and Shifting Shadow to maybe grab him for free), but I will readily admit that he's at the absolute top of my curve and could easily be replaced since he doesn't really add too much to the deck. he's just a "win more" card really and I don't think I would miss him all that much if i cut him.

Guildmages' Forum is better than Opal Palace in my opinion and i don't see much need to run both. Forum lets you put a counter on any multicolored creature (which i have several) and palace only on marchesa, so it's a straight improvement.

Forge of Heroes sounds like a terrible mobile game, but it's a great insurance policy on marchesa and unlike opal palace, etc. you can use it even if it isn't your turn.

the scry lands obviously could be replaced by ABUR duals or something, but i'm not made of money and haven't ever really felt they were hindering the deck so may as well keep them.

I don't really rate Helm of the Host too highly, it doesn't do anything in particular for the deck and it costs soooo much mana.

Aetherborn Marauder , Bloodhunter Bat , Filigree Familiar none of these has that great of an effect in my opinion. looks like you're wanting to work some life gain into the deck and i think it's a good idea to have some. i run Basilisk Collar and Wurmcoil Engine to fill that role. of those cards you linked i think Gray Merchant of Asphodel is probably the best option and is a card i have considered. but so far between my card draw and tutors i've not had too much trouble finding one of my lifegain cards and it is usually feasible to steal something with lifelink via Hostage Taker or Thief of Sanity

I'm running Massacre Wurm as a newer addition and so far it's working out, though i'm not 100% sold on it. it mostly clears tokens and Elvish Mystic s and such, but the life loss on it can be fairly substantial. i could go either way on it right now.

Nicol Bolas, the Ravager  ^Flip is amazing. i would play it even if it didn't turn into a planeswalker. 4/4 flying ETB opponents discard is already super good. i usually don't even bother to flip him most of the time. if you were going to add one card this is high on my list of recommendations. he's performed strongly every game i play him.

Krav, the Unredeemed is kind of high on the mana curve for this kind of effect. considering he doesn't have flying (oddly) or any other evasion i'm not a big fan of using him as a beater, and so he's in a bit of a rough spot.

i actually think i would rather have Kokusho, the Evening Star than Gray Merchant of Asphodel simply because he's a bit more useful on the board.

i don't think Keiga, the Tide Star is a good choice though. it's highly over costed and has hoops to jump through. Cytoplast Manipulator is significantly better in a variety of ways.

i don't see any reason to run Judith, the Scourge Diva she's not really better than Blood Artist or similar and there's plenty of effects like this in a variety of forms (creature, enchantment, etc) i think the incidental life loss to a single player or a couple points of damage to a creature is not going to really be anything to write home about and in EDH when you have 120 life to deal with it's just not good enough.

I don't see any point in running Embargo as it doesn't synergize with the deck particularly well. i suppose you could try to use it to keep your opponents creatures tapped down for some swings, but i dont really think there's much point in it. i speak similarly about Herald of Secret Streams in my write up.

Hall of the Bandit Lord is might be worth running, but i haven't ever tested it.

Coalition Relic is fine, it's a cmc3 rock. nothing special. i would recommend you run CMC2 or less rocks if you can, but as far as CMC3 ones go it's on the better end.

feel free to mess around with cards in my maybe board if you're looking to try some different things. i haven't tried all of them, but they're things that have caught my eye from time to time.

Thanks for responding man.

So for point #:

1. Dimir House Guard - Yeah, I'm trying to dial back the power level a tiny tiny bit, but increase the consistency. I'm already targeted quite a few times at the table when I play Marchesa.

2. Razaketh, the Foulblooded - Yeah, I'm seeing that more and more. Razaketh is awesome being able to tutor for free, has flying, big creature, hard to kill. But he doesn't seem as good to me in recent months as many people make him out to be, yano? People are like OMG OMG razaketh is so broken...I don't really think so lol

3. Opal Palace - Yeah good point, I'm just not sure how much I like dumping that many into only a counter. I know the deck runs on counters, but I like playing Marchesa earlier, not later, which happens when you have to pay 5 for her to come in and get a counter.

4. Forge of Heroes - Hmmm good point. I guess there's some political advantage there lol

5. Scry lands - Yeah, no. I have 3 decks. And plan to build another. If I got OG duels for each, I'd be broke lol. But they do seem slower than some other more budget options out there to me.

6. Helm of the Host - I can see that, yeah. I just thought it could do some work for another dethrone trigger, or ETB effect, no?

7. Lifegain - I'll look into the wurmcoil, collar, and gray merchant. However, for stealing a lifegain creature, I don't run either of those creature stealing creatures. Though I have considered Hostage Taker , I have this feeling that if I add one or two, then my list will become one of those "steal everything" marchesa lists. And I'm not a fan of those. It's too reliant on your opponents to me.

8. Massacre Wurm - I probably won't be running one in Marchesa, simply because it's 25$, and I want one for my newly rebuilt Teysa deck lol

9. Yeah? Nicol Bolas, the Ravager  ^Flip doesn't paint a target on your head for getting rid of peoples cards? lmao

10. Krav, the Unredeemed - Yeah, I was more so thinking to use him as extra card draw, lifegain, but you're probably right.

11. Kokusho, the Evening Star right?!? That flying can just run people down. And an (almost) auto 15 life swap is way better than what I think Gray merchant could do. You could get there, but it requires more setup with Gray merchant..

12. True, I added Keiga, the Tide Star because it seemed good on paper at first when I came across the thought of adding Kokusho haha

13. Yeah, I thought of that after the fact, I think Judith, the Scourge Diva would be better as a commander, which I am considering xD

14. Ahhh, I did forget about the reaonsing for cutting Herald of Secret Streams , so Embargo might just screw me over more than help.

15. Idk, to me, Hall of the Bandit Lord seems better than Guildmages' Forum and others, because most times it'll put you on dethrone, cast marchesa, and you swing and get the counter anyway, instead of having to wait a turn to pay the extra mana from the other lands that add counters.

16. Yeah haha I know, nothing really exciting, BUT necessary in a 3 color deck. If I could, I would add a Mana crypt, but...no lol I'll look around for other mana rocks. To be honest, I've been considering cutting all of the signets... I noticed your list and a few others don't run any in the deck. Too low of a curve to justify it? Waste of a turn 2/3 play? Who knows.

Thank you man, I really appreciate the help. I'll check out your maybe list :))

Sidenote --- Any cards from War of the spark that you think will be added? Very planeswalker heavy set, they're more or less enchantments haha bold move by WOTC

I can't help but notice your mana base decisions too.

No Shivan Reef ? You also play all 3 buddy lands as well as Smoldering Marsh , Sunken Hollow ...I run 8 basics and sometimes feel like it's not worth it to run the buddy lands ..hmm..

Not that many fetch lands, 2 I think I counted?

But I do like the addition of the filter land.

WunderlichDrums

regarding the manabase, you just gotta make whatever you can with what you've got. if i could afford to just drop $100 on Scalding Tarn it would obviously be a great addition, same for Volcanic Island or any number of other lands. so far i haven't had any issues with it the way it is, but i'm not making a 100% competitive list or anything here so it is what it is.

as for Shivan Reef specifically, i did have it at one point, but since i'm in a 50%+ black deck i cut it in favor of shifting to more UB and RB lands since that's the color i need most.

I agree, i'm not a fan of the steal everything type of lists people often make with marchesa, but Thief of Sanity has been pretty good so far and Cytoplast Manipulator does a lot of work because you can either steal someone else's creature or graft counters to your own guys. not to mention +1/+1 counters are pretty common in EDH so you might not even have to use graft for other people's creatures. food for thought i guess.

Nicol Bolas, the Ravager  ^Flip forces them to discard their removal so what can thy do about it. muahaha!

re: Opal Palace etc.. with a deck that is as highly commander focused as this it's pretty important to ensure that she stays on the board. often it's better to play something on T4 that can attack / be sacrificed as soon as she comes out on T5 (with safety) rather than her on t4, and hoping to have had something good on T3. I think Hall of the Bandit Lord fills the same role, but i haven't played with one ever so i couldn't say how well it works.

Razaketh, the Foulblooded and Massacre Wurm are definitely cards that i don't think i would miss and wouldn't prioritize them.

I've been watching WAR spoilers, so far nothing has definitively struck me as being a sure thing here, but we'll see how it goes.

Fleshwrither is a randomly fun card in Marchesa. Your 4 drop creatures are fairly impactful and the ability to tutor them straight into play is no joke.

Last_Laugh i think if i were going to add Fleshwrither I'd want to maybe add another one or two 4 drops since i've only got 5 or 6 at the moment, but you're right, it's definitely a good ability to be able to use multiple times. even twice is a relatively good deal. I might consider trying him out.

Fair point, I almost didn't suggest it due to a lower # of 4 drops (but then I read about your love of Nicky B lol).

Yeah good point man.

Yeah...yano..yeah, you're right. A lot of token decks wanna put counters on stuff. I could just steal their lord if I wanted to with Cytoplast.

Hahaha you convinced me before. I ordered a nicol bolas xD

Yeah I can see that about the Opal Palace type card effects. I just don't think I really like Guildmages' Forum in MY build. I had that and Forge of Heroes and kept finding myself playing the forge and never dropping the Forum, later on, after having My rhystic study, and a copy of another one, and drawing about 40 cards.. I realized I don't have much multicolored creatures in my list. So I might try swapping that out for Hall of the Bandit Lord

Agreed! I already plan to cut Razaketh, and Massacre wurm is too expensive for me to buy 2 and possibly only end up using 1 in my Teysa deck lol. SO right now, only Teysa gets one.

I think Dreadhorde Butcher (did it work? lol) could be a 'decent' include. Not OP, but definitely good value.

Angrath, Captain of Chaos also seems like it could be decent.

And if Bolas's Citadel wasn't 6? Auto include I think. I mean....I run Oracle of Mul Daya type effects in almost every green deck, and this is just better. Especially with the paying life aspect lol

WunderlichDrums i dont think Dreadhorde Butcher will be any better than Judith, the Scourge Diva and i dont think Angrath, Captain of Chaos does much considering the tokens aren't really useful here (and he can only be used 2x at that)

Hmph...good point. Yeah I forgot we discussed Judith lol

I've tried a few Marchesa builds and yours is the best in my opinion. What do you think of Olivia Mobilized for War in this deck? I have been trying it out and it has been working quite well. Also, what do you think of Liliana, Dreadhorde General? The passive draw effect when one of your creatures dies and her negative 4 seem quite strong so far, granted I haven't been able to play test her much.

Serkus i don't think that Olivia is a good fit. the deck would need to be retooled to make more use of the graveyard for her to work well. as i build it the goal is for things not to ever really be in there for very long thanks to marchesa. that said, without using her ability our options for recursion are a bit limited.

liliana would probably be a good fit, but she's a bit expensive CMC wise. i've opted for effects like grim haruspex to accomplish the same end, but it's definitely something you could try out.

Along with Judith, the Scourge Diva you can also include a Mayhem Devil . It’s a very similar effect on a beefier creature. It also hurts other opponents sac outlets.

That's a good point you have about Olivia. What about Kira the great glass spinner instead? It provides protection to the commander and has flying. The only problem I see with it are when using diabolic intent and shifting shadow.