Marchesa, The Black Rose - Primer

Commander / EDH Lokotor

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Lokotor says... #1

Hellfiend

Marchesa brings the creature back at End of Turn, so Arcbound Worker is not actually that useful with Goblin Bombardment . It is great when you have a Baleful Strix , Wurmcoil Engine , or Solemn Simulacrum you're looking to recur a few times though.

Generally Goblin Bombardment is a good sacrifice outlet though, and I'd recommend it. Especially if you're on a budget. I've had a Phyrexian Altar forever though, so I went with that instead since the mana is usually more impactful than the 1 damage.

September 21, 2019 1:15 a.m.

jeannieboef says... #2

wincons? which infinate combos could i consider?

October 2, 2019 12:24 a.m.

Lokotor says... #3

jeannieboef

Currently my deck wins through combat damage after a battle of attrition. The game plan being to control the board by recurring my creatures for value while keeping my opponents from progressing with cards like Grave Pact , Glen Elendra Archmage , and etc.

You could easily include any of the various Mikaeus, the Unhallowed combos if you'd prefer a combo win while only making minimal changes to the deck.

there's plenty of room for something like the Dramatic Reversal Isochron Scepter combo.

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Zealous Conscripts would both be good on their own and also obviously combo together.

October 2, 2019 10:54 a.m.

Last_Laugh says... #4

A little late to the party... but oh well.

Goblin Bombardment also enables an infinite damage combo in your current build. Mikaeus + Glen Elendra + Bombardment. I've never resorted to it personally but it's there.

Not sure if I've ever posted a link to my list but here goes. Upvotes on any of my decks are appreciated. Every Masochist Needs a Marchesa To Love Them. Our lists have a pretty similar focus but there's a few gems to be found like Legion Loyalist . This 1 drop is amazing in Marchesa thanks to having haste. First Strike + Trample for your entire team out of relatively nowhere does wonders here.

October 12, 2019 10:11 p.m. Edited.

Lokotor says... #5

Last_Laugh I've intentionally tried to not include any infinite combos, but feel free to do so in your build.

Goblin Bombardment is a generally good sacrifice outlet and i'd recommend it. i've just opted for a different selection of sac outlets.

Legion Loyalist definitely adds some good combat power to the board. i'll think about it. my initial thought is that he's a better fit for a slightly different version of the deck than what I have, but i can definitely see him being quite useful.

October 14, 2019 10:56 a.m.

CmdrXaan says... #6

What is your typical method of winning in this deck? Combat damage?

January 19, 2020 3:04 p.m.

Lokotor says... #7

CmdrXaan

The deck plays as an Aristocrats style deck, with the goal being to create a controlling presence on the board via continually using effects like Grave Pact , and by recurring creatures like Plaguecrafter , Voidmage Prodigy , Nicol Bolas, the Ravager  Flip, and etc. From there you will typically win via combat damage, though by making small adjustments to this particular list it is also easily viable to win via combo if you include Goblin Bombardment , since you can then loop Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Glen Elendra Archmage for infinite damage.

January 19, 2020 8:37 p.m.

Last_Laugh says... #8

Flayer of the Hatebound + Sage of Fables + Ashnod's Altar for infinite draw/damage.

Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Altar of Dementia + any non-human Persist creature for infinite mill. Replacing Altar of Dementia with Ashnod's/Phyrexian Altar will fuel a game ending spell also.

But honestly even with all those combos the deck typically wins through etb/death trigger abuse coupled with aggro and a bit of resource denial like Oona's Blackguard / Sadistic Hypnotist .

I have a bit more non-combat finishing reach in mine with Metallic Mimic + Kokusho, the Evening Star or Gray Merchant of Asphodel . Jokulhaups with your creatures coming back reliably ends games also.

January 19, 2020 10:37 p.m. Edited.

CmdrXaan says... #9

Why are you not using Herald of Secret Streams? Just curious!

January 29, 2020 9:48 p.m.

Lokotor says... #10

CmdrXaan

Check out the "notable exclusions" section of the primer.

Herald of Secret Streams

Making most or all of our creatures unblockable seems great, we might get in for a ton of damage or even knock someone out maybe. But, truth be told, it’s not that important. If you attack and they do block you’re coming out ahead on the trade 9/10 times so there’s not really much downside there. you’ll have a clear board the next turn probably. And we’re practically immune to board wipes, so we don’t have to worry about that the board getting too full to attack through either. I’d rather run Damnation or some other board wipe in this slot, given the choice. It’ll be a lot more effective at solving the problem of enemy blockers, and it'll have the upside of significantly hindering our opponents.

don't need to make our creature's unblockable if there's nothing for our opponent to block with. (taps head)

January 29, 2020 9:57 p.m.

TheMaelstrom says... #11

As someone who has been tinkering with this deck for a long time, very very good primer! A few key cards seem to be missing from consideration in the way of Sneak Attack most notably. I don't really understand Unstable Obelisk. It is nice to be able to remove anything, but it doesn't feel like it pulls its weight. Does it to you? I feel as though an All Is Dust which you'd had mentioned would pull more weight slowing down your opponents without affecting you greatly and also allowing you a way to punch through pillow fort strategies effectively. Lastly, I really like having a finisher of some kind in the form of mass land destruction Obliterate, but that is just me.

March 5, 2020 1:52 p.m.

Lokotor says... #13

TheMaelstrom

I do touch upon Sneak Attack in the notable exclusions part. My reasoning on it is that the vast majority of the creatures in the deck are <4 CMC, so there's not a huge savings cheating them out, though it's certainly not bad either. the big problem is that it requires you to have creatures in hand, which you'll probably run out of quickly. I felt Shifting Shadows was better in some respects since it guaranteed I would get a creature on board every turn it triggered. Sneak attack is also ~$30 or so and so it's not the most accessible card. So far Scroll of Fate has been working well in a similar position though. the ability to put out lands, artifacts, enchantments, planeswalkers, & creatures is really a huge upside, and even at once a turn cycle, it's really making an impact when I use it, often just by giving me some land ramp.

All Is Dust is fine, but I would put it in as a substitute for a board wipe, rather than spot removal. Unstable Obelisk is a slightly below average, but still "ok" mana-rock, so even if I never need to activate the removal clause it's still "fine" overall, and generally there's only ever one or two problem cards like Rest in Peace or etc. in any given game.

I think you're right, if I was in a meta with more pillow fort I would definitely want all is dust though, or Aura Thief, etc. definitely adjust things to your meta. for me it hasn't been an issue so far though.

if you're a fan of MLD, go for it! Definitely able to break parity on those effects with marchesa, so if you and your group are about it then it's certainly viable.

March 6, 2020 3:04 a.m.

jeannieboef says... #14

Have you ever tried treasure keeper?

April 28, 2020 4:37 p.m.

Lokotor says... #15

jeannieboef I think Treasure Keeper is a bit too much of a wild card for me, but it's definitely something you could play around with.

At CMC4 it's also a bit costly for my purposes, but I do like cards like Shifting Shadow and similar effects as a means to generate advantage. The benefit of shifting shadow however is that you can hit any CMC and that it only hits creatures, which is usually what you'll want anyway.

If you want to run it I would probably replace Imperial Recruiter (for budget purposes) or Watcher for Tomorrow since they have the most similar effects.

April 28, 2020 5:49 p.m.

Ero-sennin says... #16

I've been trying this deck with The Ozolith and it works very well. When it stays in play for a while you start getting huge creatures when you mass sac at end of turn and then all the +1/+1 counters go on a creature at the start of combat to make it huge.

May 17, 2020 3:51 p.m.

Lokotor says... #17

K1llSw1tch I haven't been able to test any of the new IKO cards unfortunately since they've only just released.

My thoughts on The Ozolith are that it is more of a finisher piece than an engine piece. Getting one really big dude, once a turn, only on your turn is a bit restricting for the kind of value I'm looking to get out of it.

The Ozolith definitely has a place in more aggro focused builds and I would recommend it in those lists. I intend to mess around with it and see how it actually plays, but at this stage Im thinking it'll end up not making the final cut. Of course time will tell.

May 17, 2020 11:55 p.m.

Ero-sennin says... #18

Lokotor Ye I find the main problem with The Ozolith is that it only allows you to put it onto one creature but it has helped to protect an important creature when I don't get the dethrone trigger. Since I don't have either Mox Diamond or Mana Crypt I have put it in place of one of those

May 18, 2020 4:59 a.m.

Ero-sennin says... #19

Also I run Damnation instead of Living Death as I find that bringing all the creatures back from the graveyard helps my opponents more than it helps me. If there is an important creature in the yard I use Phyrexian Reclamation to get them back. I'm just curious why you use Living Death instead of a board wipe that doesn't help your opponents

May 19, 2020 10:25 a.m.

Lokotor says... #20

K1llSw1tch

I note that I'm testing it in place of other wipes like Damnation or Decree of Pain in the considered cards section. My gut says Damnation is probably better overall, but I have just NOT drawn into Living Death much in the time I've been trying to test it, and so I just don't have enough data on it to really say that it's been a bad call.

I have a few grave based decks in my meta, and so there's definitely some risk, but I also see it as, even in those cases, being an asymmetrical effect at worst since we get to keep everything, and easily subvertable if I can manage to play a card like Grave Pact before Living Death since in that case, LD will being back all my opponent's creatures and then force them to immediately sacrifice them all to GP's triggers.

The main reason I've been trying it out though is to deal with indestructible creatures. I don't have a Toxic Deluge, but I would generally say that would be the card to go for otherwise.

May 19, 2020 12:37 p.m.

Solonqo says... #21

I was wondering how this deck would perform without tutors. I see that you do not run any combos in this build so the tutors don't seem crucial to the strategy. I was thinking of including more draw so I can see more of my deck in a game rather than just pick one card I need at any one time. Are tutors too important to this build or do you think it can perform well with more draw ?

July 2, 2020 10:20 p.m.

jeannieboef says... #22

The Ozolith + Thoothy sure draws a lot of cards. My favorit combo is river kelpi + spark double + sac outlet to draw my deck and find my alter of dementia. Otherwise, I run the persist Wizards + Metalic Mimic or Sage of Fabels. I'm testing Grenzo, dungeon warden atm. The deck suffers from needing too many pieces to aktually work. By the time the density of sac outlets and counter givers is there, there's no space for the stuff that wins the game. So if you can't find the combos, you end up trying to use sac outlets as beaters. Or the +1/+1 counter givers. PS agitator ant works well.

July 3, 2020 1:31 a.m.

Coward_Token says... #23

since the deck is all about looping nontoken creatures, have you ever ran Pawn of Ulamog?

July 3, 2020 2:49 p.m.

Lokotor says... #24

Coward_Token Pawn of Ulamog is definitely something you can include if you want to in this type of deck. I would generally opt for Dockside Extortionist over it, since the potential is much higher. not only do treasures add any color, but they also can often come out in larger numbers to quickly give you a large boost of mana all at once.

One of the big upsides of PoU is that the eldrazi scions can also be used to get more value from other sacrifice related effects, such as Grave Pact, Viscera Seer, Ashnod's Altar, etc. or even just to use as chump blockers.

I would definitely consider running PoU for this type of deck, especially for a more budget version. another similar option is Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge if you're looking for another version of this type of effect

July 4, 2020 2:22 p.m.

jeannieboef says... #25

Agreed. My current build also has Gadrak, Pawn and the poor man's Dockside, e.i. Pitiless Plunderer.

July 6, 2020 1:39 a.m.

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