If budget didn't matter, would there be any specific cards you would add?

When you have an opening hand with no draw, but a tutor...what do you tutor for? Repeat the question with "ramp" instead of draw.

Now you have loads of mana, it's late game, the board has been wiped again. You're looking for something to just finish the game...what do you tutor for?

Charlielx

Obvious upgrades would be things like Volcanic Island, Underground Sea, Badlands, Scalding Tarn, Prismatic Vista, Morphic Pool, Luxury Suite, Fiery Islet, etc. Ancient Tomb also would probably be a reasonable add.

As for more impactful upgrades, I would like to get a Toxic Deluge at some point, but it's never been a priority buy for me at ~$35. If I had a second Damnation that might also be something i'd consider adding.

Arcane Signet is marginally better than Fellwar Stone but not enough that I really feel like spending $7.

Fierce Guardianship is also a relatively good addition, since protecting Marchesa is important. Similar free counters are a bit harder to run in this shell given their various restrictions (eg actually having a blue card for FoW isn't as reliable)

Spellseeker could be worth trying out

jeannieboef

I think for card draw, the best options would be either Necropotence or Yawgmoth, Thran Physician depending on what the rest of your hand looks like. (number of black sources and/or creatures primarily) Yawgmoth is probably the less threatening option between the two, and also more useful throughout the course of the game as he's also a sacrifice outlet, so he'll kill two birds with one stone for you.

If you have a sacrifice outlet in hand then you could go for either Baleful Strix or Solemn Simulacrum, depending on what you're looking to get out of them. they'll provide you with a lot of value in the earlier parts of the game. notably strix is a good option since at CMC2 you can get it out early and really be able to capitalize on the card draw (not to mention it's a great blocker.) and solemn obviously has the advantage of also being ramp. it's mostly a tempo call here though.

For your second question, it depends mostly on what I need the ramp for. If I just want to have some extra mana for my next turn's play, then sol ring is fine. If I've got a source of draw, or a hand full of higher CMC threats like Wurmcoil Engine or Nicol Bolas, the Ravager  ^Flip or Dictate of Erebos or something, then Scroll of Fate is good since it'll let me flash them in for free, essentially. if it's more in the earlier part of the game and i'm looking to just get a strong start/lead, then Solemn Simulacrum is great since it'll not only provide me with up to 7 more lands, but also plenty of card draw. (especially if i can pair it with Arcbound Worker for free counters on every other player's turn.) Dockside Extortionist isn't always a great turn 1-4 play, but depending on the table it'll give you a ton of mana, especially if you can do it a few times in a row.

on your last question, like always, it depends. the board has been wiped, but depending on where i'm at, things vary. are all creatures dead but i still have all my artifacts/enchantments? did i pull a classic marchesa move and come out with all my creatures still in play? was it just a weakly positioned enemy Cyclonic Rift that left everyone equally empty?

the deck largely plays by way of card synergy, so there's not quite a one stop win card, generally you'll need a card that creates value, AND a card that takes advantage of that value, so you'll have to base the decision on which pieces you have and which ones can best take advantage of it.

if you run Goblin Bombardment then Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Glen Elendra Archmage are an obvious combo target, if you've got something like Arcbound Worker or Unspeakable Symbol out then you could quickly create a huge army of Wurmcoil Engine tokens to lock the game down with. (on a clear board, having a 6/6 and 8 3/3s with lifelink and Deathtouch is usually gg.) if you've got Grave Pact then you could look for a sacrifice outlet, or something to easily recur to lock out the table.

Wurmcoil Engine is the most powerful creature in the deck as far as individual threats go, so with nothing else on board at all, that would probably be my pick, but i think if you're ever in that position then you're probably not going to win that game regardless.

Looking at the list, you seem very dependant on dethrone triggers to put counters on your stuff. Do you feel that bite you more often than you would like? Or do you feel you run enough cards to reduce your life total when needed?

Does Grave Pact tend to come out in good time? For 3+ color decks, I tend to find 3+ mana symbols of the same color rough for CMC <6 cards

jeannieboef

I used to have a bit higher density of cards that can create their own counters, but generally I've been finding it relatively easy to manage my life total, and I have a good proportion of creatures with evasion (~10) so attacking is relatively easy, and i still have ~6 creatures that make their own counters, so the deck seems to run fine. I would like to have a bit more independence from the combat step, but it hasn't been an issue in my games so far.

Coward_Token

My list is >50% black, and most of my duals are B/x so I really have not had any problem with casting costs. If anything, I have more trouble drawing Grave Pact than I ever have playing it.

jeannieboef

There's something in the range of ~15-18 cards that do damage to me, and it would be relatively easy to up that number with a few small changes, like adding Talisman of Creativity, Midnight Reaper, Nikara, Lair Scavenger, etc, etc... so it shouldn't be too hard to control your life total. But as I said, the high density of evasive creatures generally makes it reasonably easy to get dethrone triggers.

Lokotor

Thanks so much! I've been playing this deck as my primary for about 6-7 months and I absolutely love it. I've got a little extra cash for some upgrades so I figured I'd splurge for some cool stuff, I've already got all the duals/fetches/etc in there but I'll definitely be picking up those recs to try out (I think I've got a Toxic Deluge around somewhere so that's already sorted!). I've debated adding Fierce Guardianship before and I think it might be a good choice now that you mention it again, I've tried FoW before and you're absolutely right that having a blue card in hand isn't always an option, and when it is it doesn't usually feel great. Anyway, thanks for being so active with this deck and the comments here, really helps out a lot when brainstorming upgrades or branching paths the deck could take, I appreciate it

Great Deck! I love Marchesa! What are your thoughts on giving creatures haste through Hammer of Purphoros or Fervor? It would help get +1 counters through dethrone to help protect your creatures one turn earlier, and help deal out a little more damage since your creatures are in the "1-2 Range" as you mentioned. I love the idea of using Scroll of Fate to cheat lands and other big things out! I'll be adding that to my Marchesa deck: Life After Death, and Death After Life

Cmi1103

it's not a bad idea, you could definitely experiment with a few more haste effects like that. Though with Swiftfoot Boots and or Lightning Greaves you'll probably be fine since on average I can't imagine you need more than one creature to have haste in any given turn.

Generally I think things have been running fine as is for me without many haste effects, but a slightly more aggro build would probably enjoy having a handful of those effects. if your meta is a bit heavier on removal or similar then it'd be a good investment for sure.

taking a look at your list I think you're shifted a bit towards the higher end for your mana curve, and you don't seem to have enough land/ramp/draw to support it. (35 lands and 8 rocks, 4 of which are not great.)

I would try to at least add a few more lands. if your budget allows, then a few lower costed mana rocks would also be a good idea. Mind Stone, Talisman of Creativity, Talisman of Indulgence, Izzet Signet, Everflowing Chalice, & Fellwar Stone are all fairly cheap 2CMC options.

you seem a bit imbalanced in your land selection as well, with a lot more red sources than you probably need and probably not quite enough blue ones.

you also probably could stand to add in a few more card draw spells to let you get through more of your deck in any given game and also to help ensure that you're making land drops consistently.

Lokotor

Thanks for the suggestions! I am planning on removing 9-10 of the cards with cmc higher than 4 the next time I get around to picking up some new cards and upgrading the deck. I also use to run a lot of threaten effects, which is why the land base was fairly heavier on red than needed. I've made a few changes already to help balance it out.

Hey man, I love the deck! Just one question: Why no Dusk Legion Zealot? It's an MVP in my Marchesa deck, sort of like a Phyrexian Arena for one less mana with a sac outlet.

Sultai_Sir Cards like Dusk Legion Zealot are a good option for sure. I run similar cards in Baleful Strix and Watcher for Tomorrow.

I find Strix is a great option for the deck. Since it's an artifact it can synergize with Arcbound Worker, and since it has flying and deathtouch, it's easy to attack and get a counter on it when I need to, and it acts as a disincentive to attack me when I need that.

Watcher is great since it lets me dig for what I need, looking at 4 cards and picking the best one. It's also a wizard, which can play well if I have Sage of Fables or Voidmage Prodigy out.

In some ways, Imperial Recruiter also fills this same role since it comes in and puts a card into my hand. (and it also has the benefit of being exactly the one I want)

I generally find that I don't have too much trouble managing my life total with the list as is, so the fact that these cards don't include the "lose 1 life" part hasn't been much of an issue.

I'm testing Shifting Shadows. How do you find players react to it? Do they bolt your creature before you get the benifit or do they tend to leave it alone? I'm also playing few creature more than 3 cmc, but they don't know that. Does the fear of Eldrazi make them bolt it?

Also, it feels restrictive in that some creatures want to be sacked during each other player's turn as well. Shifting Shadow forces you to wait...I don't know...do you feel like the restrictions are worth it? I'm always a littel wary of auras.

On the upside, it's a consistant sacoutlet and the haste helps with getting a counter on, provided the creature can attack without dying. But it's probably a dead card if you don't have a good way to get counters on. Worst case, it's an haste enabler.

jeannieboef

you'll probably get at least 1 activation off of it all the time. at that point it's 3 mana to ensure you're building your board next turn.

consider you're almost certainly playing it on a creature that already has a counter on it, and so if they waste removal on it then that's fine since now they don't have removal for something that matters and you have essentially only lost 3 mana since your creature is just coming back.

consider also that they've had removal and they haven't used it on whatever you're playing shadow on so far, so it's probably not a big threat to them, so why would they waste a removal spell on it? they'll probably save it for whatever comes out off of shadows next turn if it even is a big immediate threat to them.

are you going to really lightning bolt my Baleful Strix or Solemn Simulacrum (with a +1/+1 counter on it probably) just because it has Shifting Shadows on it? probably not.

shadows triggers and now I have a simulacrum + a Thief of Sanity do you want to use your removal on either of them really? maybe, but they might say ... well this isn't that bad, i'll wait till something ACTUALLY bad comes out and then i'll kill it. and by then you've gotten 3-4 free creature tutors.

it's somewhat of a damned if you do damned if you don't card for your opponents and it has a low opportunity cost for you.

I think it's a good card, but I ended up going for Imperial Recruiter instead since it lets me have more choice over what cards I'm getting.

all of your concerns are totally real, and you should be aware of them and let that influence how you play the card. (like by not putting it on creatures without evasion, or on high priority for removal creatures, or saving a counter spell in case you get something really good off it) that said, I still think it's generally a good card.

Why not just replace one of the talismans with an arcane signet, isn't it just strictly better?

Really nice deck by the way, I'm going to be building it with my own touch + some budget options, thank you for the inspiration.

Wasn't thinking, obviously the damage can help with dethrone. What do you think of chrome mox in the deck? Looking for a replacement for mox diamond that I have, or is cheap, could just use a cheaper mana rock, but I have a chrome mox.

deviousx don't forget to take a look at the budget list as well if you're in need of some more ideas.

chrome mox is ok, but it can be tough to deal with the imprint, especially in a 3 color deck. black is probably the best default. i always feel bad exiling a card to play it though and don't think the effect is that critical here.

I would think you could replace Mox Diamond with a Dimir Signet and be totally fine. it's a little slower, but ramp is ramp. even Everflowing Chalice or Mind Stone would be suitable as they're also low cost rocks.

Just wanted to thank you for this primer, and the time you've put in answering every question here and motivating all of your choices! Been a real inspiration in building my own deck. Thx again, and I'll keep following this primer and its owners' comments.

@Lokotor Feed the Swarm, it may be a sorcery, but i think this is a much needed card in this deck!

M4RK0G91 indeed. I'm probably going to replace Unstable Obelisk or Bedevil with it, though I haven't fully settled on what to replace yet.

So, I've had some games with some changes...

Blood Artist has been AMAZING! I knew it would be solid, but it's done some serious work. I've had several games where his ability to target myself to not put my on the throne has been relevant, and have had games where he's pulled my butt out of the fire, including one recent game where I went to 1 life, and managed to get back to 12 by my next turn thanks to having a few creatures I could sac and recur each turn.

yeti1069

I'm not running it right now, but not because it's a bad call by any means. You may need to work a given deck list to be a bit heavier on creatures/tokens to get the best value from it, but Blood Artist is definitely an excellent choice in this type of deck.

There are about 4 Plaguecrafter type cards in the game at the minute. Have you ever tested with all 4 in a deck? I know in my Meren deck I landed at two, partly because it starts to become a dead card at some point and partly because of the negativ political response induced making me a target. What has your experience been?

jeannieboef I have not particularly needed more than the one so far, but I think in a more creature heavy meta, or if cards like Grave Pact / Dictate of Erebos weren't in your budget then running a few extra copies of Fleshbag Marauder etc.. would be advised.

The main hang-up with them is that if you don't have other creatures with +1/+1 counters out then it's basically a 3 mana Innocent Blood and that's not all that great. so it needs some setup usually. this isn't a big ask, but it can lead to it being a card that is just sitting in your hand for a while, so you need to ensure you have a good creature density in your list to avoid that.

the budget list runs a few more creatures in this line of thinking, such as Skinrender and Ravenous Chupacabra