iammute Helm of the Host is cool, but it takes a bit more mana than I am comfortable with before it does anything.

Blade of Selves on the other hand is a card I've always wanted to try, but never got around to buying. The problem is I play a lot more three player edh than four player (the woes of a small playgroup), so Blade wouldn't be performing at full capacity in most of my games.

Fuzzlewuzzle I hadn’t thought of that. Blade of Selves, Helm of the Host, Panharmonicon and Strionic Resonator are pet cards of mine so I’m always looking for decks to force them in. I have drawn the Blade a few times when the game has gotten to 1vs1 and it is a horrible feeling

Fuzzlewuzzle I was coming to see if you knew about the new dragons in Core21 and I see you have! I absolutely love Terror of the Peaks and it has inspired to rebuild my Jund dragons deck. It was built around getting lethal damage from reanimating a tonne of dragons with Dragon Tempest or Scourge of Valkas so the Terror is a perfect fit. Molten Echoes and Bramble Sovereign are great new additions to get extra value too.

Big Ur's Discount Warehouse (The Ur-Dragon EDH)

Commander / EDH iammute

111 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER

iammute I am so hyped for Terror of the Peaks you have no idea. It is pretty much everything this deck wants in a dragon. I had cut Warstorm Surge a while ago because of the CMC, so having that effect on a 5 CMC body is amazing.

I'll check out your deck too. The Ur-Dragon is sweet as heck

Fuzzlewuzzle It'd be great to chat with you a bit more about some of the choices here! I feel like I'd love to keep a Bladewing conversation going :)

Here's my list:

Discord Username: ThePillowman#5629

...Welp, that's awkward. No list! Try this one:

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/XpVwmqgF9k6XBmVv6tKg-Q

On to questions!

• Has Crucible of the Spirit Dragon been valuable for you? Or is it a slow land?

• Have you had Exhume backfire on you? Or is its low CMC and early-game, (kinda) asymmertrical value consistent enough to warrant a slot?

• How have you found Feldon of the Third Path to play here?! I'm SUPER curious to add Feldon into mine for all the combo potential!

• Have you had success with Dark Ritual, and have you tried Seething Song or any of the other rituals? I'm very curious about those.

X-Factor11105 Definitely a fan of your list, though I don't really have much in the way of suggestions. I'm not sure if I like the idea of running Moltensteel Dragon outside of Scion combo/infect shenanigans. How has he been for you?

I like that you're running Daretti. I used to run him and he was great, and I've been tempted to find a spot for him again.

Anyway, some answers:

• Crucible is... whatever. I'm pretty sure I've only ever used it to store mana like three times in the entire time I've had this deck, but at the same time it has never really screwed me over either, so I don't feel like I'm losing anything by including it. Its probably one of the first lands I'll cut once I have the money to upgrade my mana with stuff like Ancient Tomb or more fetchlands.

• Exhume is admittedly sometimes dead, but when an opponent has a dangerous creature in their yard I'll typically just loot Exhume away for something else.

• Feldon is amazing, yet I'm still somehow kinda meh on him. Recurring stuff like Solemn Simulacrum, Utvara Hellkite, and Dragon Tyrant is awesome, but I have had a lot of games where I draw Feldon before I even have anything to meaningfully reanimate, and he just kinda... sits there. Or he eats a removal spell before I get a chance to untap with him.

• I love Dark Ritual. At the very worst it lets me cast Bladewing two turns early, but you know what feels amazing? Using Dark Ritual to cast Phyrexian Arena on turn 1. It also lets you do stuff like turn 1 Entomb your dragon of choice, then Exhume it right into play. Turn 1 Utvara Hellkite is funnnn.

On another note, I am so ready to windmill slam Feed the Swarm in here once Zendikar drops, butttt I'm not sure what to cut for it. Any ideas? I'm kinda thinking of swapping out Gratuitous Violence - it's been feeling like overkill lately.

Fuzzlewuzzle I'm gonna experiment with Feldon of the Third Path - with how many ETB cantrips there are here, plus the occasional LTBs, there's a lot of ways to make him hyper-valuable here.

I do feel like Feed the Swarm needs to slot in to decks running black, especially Rakdos where enchantment hate is limited. Thoughts for possible swap:

• Burnished Hart: I feel like this card is always so, so slow.

• Oubliette: With how much spot removal Rakdos can pack, plus all the direct damage that can be served from ETBs on Terror of the Peaks, Dragon Tempest, and Scourge of Valkas, I don't feel like the 3-mana phase out is as efficient. Plus it leaves the enchantment on the board waiting to get sniped.

• Gratuitous Violence: I agree - this feels a bit like a "win more" card, though the scaling up with the likes of Terror of the Peaks, Scourge of Valkas, Drakuseth, and Skittles feels pretty nasty.

• Ashes to Ashes or Praetor's Grasp: if these are pet cards and they've done work for you, 100% agreed to leave it in. I just see an opportunity to reduce average CMC while still having a good removal suite.

• Grave Upheaval: The 6 CMC revive doesn't seem worthwhile in this build, and at 38 lands, plus all of the drawing and looting the build does, I don't imagine you're often hurting for a land drop. Plus the 2 CMC landcycling is the same cost as the removal you'd want to add!

How has Molten Echoes played for you? I hesitate to use a perma-copy enchantment like that or Flameshadow Conjuring because of how many Legendaries don't wanna activate it.

How often have you gotten to Sneak Attack in with Purphoros, Bronze-Blooded? It felt a little slow for me so I swapped back to Chainer, Nightmare Adept and have felt pretty good about it. The conditional haste doesn't feel like such a limit as we have so, so many ways to get the Dragons hasted already.

Other questions I'm thinking about with Zendikar Rising:

• Does Leyline Tyrant as an inclusion want to push this build to use more red-generating rituals?

• Does Soul Shatter have to find its way in here? At 3 CMC, to edict out 3 creatures/planeswalkers feels like a pretty fantastic value.

I also like Moltensteel Dragon - the artifact synergies are here, it gives me a way to potentially OTK an opponent, and with a 4 CMC cost I like that it gives me another early-game option. My build has no cost reduction so if I can find ways to be a bit less mana-dependent I want to for sure.

X-Factor11105 I appreciate the suggestions, keep 'em coming! I think I'm going to try swapping Feed the Swarm in for Extinction Event, as exiling my own stuff feels pretty bad when it happens.

Two quick counterpoints:

• Oubliette is different from all the other removal rakdos has access to, in that it can completely remove opposing commanders from the game. If you phase out someone else's commander it is gone forever, at least until they find a way to remove Oubliette (which some colors struggle to do).

• I know Grave Upheaval is high-CMC, but every time I've cut the card I've regretted it. I like the flexibility - in the early game I can pitch it for a land to make sure I don't miss my land drops, and in the late game I can yank a hasted threat from anyone's graveyard. Cards that are useful in multiple situations are really nice to have.

Molten Echoes is awesome. I used to run Flameshadow Conjuring, and Echoes is a major upgrade. The legendary issue isn't much of a problem - it doesn't work with Skittles, Drakuseth, or either Kolaghan, but works amazingly with pretty much every other dragon, especially with Utvara, Terror of the Peaks, and Valkas. It's also one of Bladewing's infinite combo pieces, which is great for killing people out of nowhere.

I actually haven't been all that impressed with Purphoros lately. I initially loved him, but I don't use his sneak attack all that often, so most of the time he's just an indestructible 5-mana haste emblem. I've been thinking of swapping him out for something like Fervor, but I'm not sure.

Leyline Tyrant looks really neat, but my meta has a lot of exile-based removal, so I don't think I'd get a lot of mileage out of him. Then again, even if he just stores one or two turns' worth of red mana, that's still essentially a free casting of a 7 cmc or higher dragon, so maybe he's worth it? If I were to run him, I don't know if I'd use red rituals, but I'd definitely try out running Braid of Fire, though in that case I think I'd want to include more dragons with firebreathing to take advantage of the free mana.

Soul Shatter might find it's way in here. A 3 mana instant that kills everyone else's biggest threat, while leaving my board totally intact definitely seems worth a shot.

Fuzzlewuzzle let the discussion flow!

• On Grave Upheaval: To be honest, I'm surprised you're experiencing instances where you may miss land drops. Have you hit a lot of those instances? I'd almost rather that slot be occupied towards something that pushes the strategy forward more while also reducing the likelihood of missing land drops: Cathartic Reunion pushes your deck forward faster while also pitching dragons, Gamble lets you tutor what you need while also pitching something, or Patriarch's Bidding lets you have another mass recursion spell (and probably acts to kill one or two players, depending on ETB cantrips/volume of dragons).

• On Molten Echoes: I might be a bit worried about this being a 4-drop, when Heat Shimmer and Twinflame can come down earlier. I think I'm worried about a 4-drop that doesn't impact the board and requires another turn to see value. I've added it to my "Considering" section. While we're on the subject...

• On Combo Focus: How come you haven't included Worldgorger Dragon? I've found it a bit tricky to trade for but I believe it has very similar combo lines to Bladewing the Risen. What's also kept you from adding a go-infinite suite with Dualcaster Mage, Heat Shimmer, Twinflame, and maybe even Splinter Twin?

• On Oubliette: I think we're different players - I'd much rather just send a Commander to the yard.

X-Factor11105

• In my experience (maybe I'm just unlucky), no matter how carefully you build your mana base, there's always times where you miss land drops. That's just one of the things you have to deal with when you're running a 7 CMC commander that doesn't have green. Gamble and Patriarch's Bidding are nice, but I don't own any copies (if I did, then yeah I probably would be running gamble somewhere in here).

• I strongly recommend giving Molten Echoes a shot. Heat Shimmer and Twinflame are good, don't get me wrong, but Echoes wins out imo because it is repeatable, and doesn't require any additional mana, which means you can tap out to cast dragons on curve and still get their copies. Provided you have Echoes and an ETB trigger like Scourge of Valkas or Dragon Tempest, Echoes lets you tap out to play Bladewing and combo kill the table without having to hold up mana to make the clone.

• What's kept me from running Worldgorger Dragon? Two things, and both are because of my playgroup. The first is that I don't actually want to lean too hard into the combo aspect of the deck. Winning with an infinite combo once or twice a night is fine, but do it too regularly and people in my playgroup start getting grumpy. I want people to like playing against me, so I try to only pull off a combo win when I absolutely have to. The second is that I don't think the Worldgorger combo would work well in my playgroup. Everyone else runs a lot of instant speed removal, so I feel like I would win maybe once or twice off Worldgorger, then everyone would wise up and hold up removal to interrupt me. I really don't like the idea of getting my entire board permanently exiled by my own card.

• One last thing about Oubliette and then I promise I'll leave you alone. Yeah, there are a lot of more efficient ways to kill commanders in Rakdos, but your opponent can (and will) just send their commander back to the command zone. Oubliette doesn't allow that to happen. Remember, phasing is not a zone change, so if you hit your opponent's commander with Oubliette they don't get to redirect it to their command zone, because their commander isn't technically going anywhere. Their commander is just gone, along with all auras and equipment that were attached to it. They are never getting their commander back unless someone removes Oubliette. Green and White have enough enchantment removal where this isn't too backbreaking, but if you use Oubliette against a deck without those colors there's a very good chance their commander is just out of the game forever.

Fuzzlewuzzle I’m finally getting round to building Bladewing after picking up a FTV foil

iammute Welcome to the club! This year has been a pretty great year for Bladewing.

Fuzzlewuzzle accidentally sent that message half way through typing. The edit function doesn’t seem to work either so I just look silly now

Fuzzlewuzzle it's cut off half my message again. Maybe because I'm using my phone? This is my last try and then I'm giving up haha

Have been trying to ask if you have ever thought about including Kokusho, the Evening Star? It can replace Dragon Tempest/Terror of the Peaks as your wincon in the Molten Echoes combo. The lifedrain could have some good incidental value too. I have a lands player in my playgroup so I'm always looking for nondamage wincons to get around Glacial Chasm

iammute Kokusho, the Evening Star should almost definitely be in here. The only reason it isn't is because I (stupidly) didn't buy it after its latest reprint when it was only $5, and now I'm just bitter about how much the price has increased since then.

That's it. That's the whole reason.

shakes fist at sky

Fuzzlewuzzle oh no, that’s really annoying. There can be such a small window of time on some cards before the price creeps up and out of budget again.

I run Koko in my Gonti etb deck and equipping it with Blade of Selves is such a great feeling.

Fuzzlewuzzle I'm glad you keep working on this deck! I'm still working to tighten mine up as well!

Some questions and thoughts:

• Molten Echoes: I think we differ on this because of playstyle. Of your 18 dragons (including Bladewing), 4 are Legendary, and three of them are nonbos with Molten Echoes (Bladewing goes infinite). In my deck, , I have 7. At least Ryusei, the Falling Star and Kokusho, the Evening Star would be funny triggers with Echoes. I think I'd rather be selective about what to copy and focus on building up board presence or draw in the mid-game than play a payoff.

• Avaricious Dragon: How has this played for you? I feel like that drawback is pretty massive. If I feel like I need to get some draw I may rather include Dragon Mage.

• Command Beacon: You have this included for a 2nd or 3rd cast of Bladewing? My normal play is to let Bladewing hit the graveyard, knowing there's so much recursion packed in to bring him back.

• Altar of Dementia: You went with this as the sac outlet to end the game versus, say Ashnod's Altar, which requires an additional play? I think there's a pros/cons discussion to be had about Altar vs. High Market, but if going infinite is the purpose of that slot, I can get it.

• Nightscape Familiar: Does this card dramatically accelerate your deck? I see why it could be valuable with cost reduction, I'm just not totally convinced its a strong enough 2-drop. The regeneration is nice though, so I 100% see how it could be so worthwhile, especially if it can stick on the board for a turn or two.

EDIT: Here's a link to my current Bladewing deck:

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/XpVwmqgF9k6XBmVv6tKg-Q

X-Factor11105 curious to hear which dragons you consider to be nonbos with Molten Echoes. Even if a legendary dragon dies straight away it’s still another Dragon Tempest/Scourge/Terror trigger. It’s also an immediate Ryusei/Kokusho trigger as you’ve pointed out. You can even send the original to the graveyard to reanimate later and swing in with the token. Unless your opponents’ decks are built around gaining value from your creatures dying the downside seems low.

Hazoret's Monument is a possible replacement for the familiar. It costs slightly more and only affects creatures but the looting could be helpful. I like Heartless Summoning in big creatures decks too but there maybe aren’t enough creatures here to be worth it.

iammute let's discussMolten Echoes! Those are really solid points you make:

• Trigger for one of the ETB effects you listed (Tempest / Scourge / Terror)
• Send original to yard based on available recursion (PRO: fills the yard, CON: telegraphs your next move a bit). This could also be a lesser synergy with Boneyard Scourge

I think the nonbo aspect to me is that there isn't that perfect, consistent synergy with those legendaries - in this case, Drakuseth, Maw of Flames, Dragonlord Kolaghan, and Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury. It's hopefully a trigger, but choosing the token to remain on the battlefield also clearly telegraphs to your opponents what's coming next. The deck is fairly straightforward, so it's not like it'll be a big shocker, but I'd expect multiple players to hold up mana for counters / spot removal if they see you keep the token and send the original to the graveyard.

In my experience with Bladewing, I've had trouble sustaining an early-game presence, even with a host of 2-3 drops and a bunch of looting effects. Admittedly, I might be looking at Echoes through a narrow lense - the late-game synergy is truly back-breaking (multiple Balefire Dragon, Utvara Hellkite,or Scourge of the Throne triggers probably wins the game outright). I think I'd just be concerned to drop an enchantment that doesn't affect the board on T3 or T4 while my opponents continue to ramp or get their strategies really in motion on that same turn. If you've seen the benefits outweigh the negatives I'd love to know about that experience!

I can confirm Hazoret's Monument has been great, even at a slightly higher cost. Having that additional method for filling the yard has been super helpful.

Speaking of, have either of you considered Drownyard Temple? I don't think I use it currently but could see it having value, knowing how much discarding wants to happen here (hi Chainer, Nightmare Adept! Also considering Azra Oddsmaker and Olivia, Mobilized for War).

X-Factor11105: Some good points! Here's my reasoning:

• Molten Echoes is largely in here because it is the easiest enabler I've found for Bladewing to go infinite, while still providing reliable value when not going infinite. While there are some legendaries that kinda nonbo with it (though you can always let the legendary die and swing with the hasty token), there are also a number of dragons that are really good with it. Making copies of stuff like Utvara Hellkite, Scourge of Valkas, Terror of the Peaks, and Dragon Tyrant is awesome.

• Avaricious Dragon has sucked a lot of ass. I included it to lower my curve and increase my draw power, butttt it really has not been pulling its weight. I'll cut it as soon as I find something else I want to run. Maybe Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge? I see you're running him, how has he been?

• Command Beacon is in here now because there just honestly is no reason not to include it. I don't see myself using it often, but there's just really no downside to including it, since my manabase is more than consistent enough to afford the utility slot. Like you said, I generally just let Bladewing hit the graveyard to reanimate later, but if I don't have access to a reanimate spell and do have the mana to hardcast him again, I usually let him go back to the command zone. This makes that line of play a little less punishing.

• Altar of Dementia is here because I wanted a free sac outlet to enable the new infinite loop with Hellkite Courser, and it is IMO the best one in a vacuum. It's one cmc cheaper than ashnod's, can mill out an opponent if I don't have a Dragon Tempest effect on board, and can be used to fill my graveyard in a pinch.

• Nightscape Familiar is... fine. Nothing amazing, but the cost reduction applies to a lot of my spells, and being able to regenerate makes him a decent blocker if I need one.

Since you mentioned it, I think Drownyard Temple is a card I would use if I went a bit harder on aggressively self-milling to fill my graveyard, but I generally don't like doing that (makes it easier to get blown out by gravehate).

I generally don't worry about establishing early-game presence too much with this deck. I spend the first few turns ramping, looting, and sending removal at everything my opponents play, then start dropping dragons.

God Hellkite Courser is just so so good. Bladewing even gets a shout-out in one of the latest Command Zone podcasts! Link below:

https://youtu.be/CrWXs5KQo0I?t=5839

You guys are seriously making me want to try Molten Echoes...

Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge has some secondary synergies in my deck, and would certainly benefit from Molten Echoes. I have it in here mostly as a 3-drop flying blocker that happens to be a Dragon. The artifact restriction in my deck doesn't feel too heavy, though I do wonder if with Magda, Brazen Outlaw coming, there may be more Dragon / Treasure synergies headed our way. If you need a substitute for Avaricious Dragon, can I suggest Goblin Engineer? The pro's are pretty nifty in this deck:

• Tutor Steel Hellkite, your sac outlet Altar of Dementia, or a ramp artifact.
• Sac a Feldon of the Third Path artifact creature to maximize the value of the creature token.
• Use then sac any artifact captured by Hellkite Tyrant.
• If you had them, you could tutor in Great Furnace or Vault of Whispers to get an added early-game land drop.

You could always come back to playing Solemn Simulacrum for a value-added four-drop too!

X-Factor11105 Squee, Goblin Nabob is probably a better option for repeated discard than Drownyard Temple. I know it’s used a lot in Chainer, Nightmare Adept decks, just whether or not you’d get enough use for him here.