Mindcrank would be excellent with theDuskmantle Guildmage. Infinite combo for the win.

Ouch, that's nasty. That would basically work with Bloodchief Ascension and any source of mill too?

Ye but you would have to get the counters on that one. But post my EDH mill deck on here soon and let you look at it and see if you can catch any ideas. But feel free to have a look at my other EDH deck Krenko Madness give me any advice or comment your imput if you'd like!

Mesmeric Orb. That is all.

I second Mesmeric Orb

Tunnel Vision + any card that would put a known card to the bottom of the library like Spin into Myth, Hinder or Spell Crumple. Another good mill combo is Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void

Will certainly consider Mindcrank. Definately not Mesmeric Orb as I want any self-mill to be controlled, to run orb efficiently I'd have to shift my whole deck to a full on reanimator strategy with huge fatties and whatnot, and that's not what I want from this deck. I will also consider the Tunnel Vision combo, I'm just not sure how many insta-kills I want to be running. I do like me a fair game of magic.

Although, I could keep them around, and decide to use them or not, depending on how fair the playgroup I'm up against is.

Not sure how you "...easily dump 10 creatures in graveyards in one turn." from play for Grave Betrayal like you suggest, as you only have one boardwipe.

I also disagree that you "have to shift my whole deck to a full on reanimator strategy " in order to take advantage of Mesmeric Orb. The orb is the single best mill card available to the deck, far far better than any of the, what, like 5-6 mill cards in your deck? And besides, you yourself say that your deck "packs a good reanimation package". And if your reasoning is that you dont think milling opponents is viable "because Eldrazi see a lot of play", just consider the fact that the faster you mill their eldrazi into the grave, the faster you get to have your Lazav turn into a giant eldrazi himself.

Also to get around eldrazi, run more instant speed grave hate, which is generally a must I have found with milling decks, as a bad match-up can leave you at a huge disadvantage otherwise, for example against reanimator decks like you suggested. Relic of Progenitus and the like will help.

But yeah, its all about the orb man. It has been the MVP of every game I drew it, early or late game. But hey, thats just my personal experience with the card.

You don't dump creatures into a graveyard with a boardwipe. You mill them into the graveyard of course. The deck contains 13 sources of mill, most of them repeatable. My point is the deck is geared towards reanimating and utilising other players fatties, I don't have a huge arsenal of reanimation worthy creatures, and fitting them in would mean diminishing the flexibility of it and have it more reliant upon itself, which is a legitimate strategy, its just contrary to why I built this deck: to have a deck that will play very differently from game to game.

That said. I do agree with the instant speed grave hate. Makes hella lot of sense.

To again quote your description " Grave Betrayal single handedly makes opponents lives extremely difficult if it resolves. Because you can easily dump 10 creatures in graveyards in one turn." And since Grave betrayal doesnt work from from milling effects, you would need some way to kill 10 creatures a turn.

I dont use Mesmeric Orb as a self mill item, it is just the best mill available to mill your opponents. Milling myself has little to no effect on my gameplay. You dont need to add a bunch of fattys to reanimate in order for the orb to be a good card, its just good for milling your opponents.

Wait, creatures have to die to trigger grave betrayal, not simply hit the graveyard. I misread the card. My bad. You're right on that count. I guess that'll be a card to cut then.

I'll get some games in and see, I might give the orb a shot. I guess I'm just mostly worried I'll end up milling myself out of combo pieces or answers.

the orb does wonders I know this first hand. it has won me games by itself

It's in the maybeboard, I'll run it as soon as I decide what to cut.

I told you I'll show you my edh Mill deck here it is! Wait Where did my deck go?

Thank you sir. I will look into that this evening.

Leyline of the Void is pretty important in a mill deck. I run the eldrazi titans, and just having one in your deck can stop a mill deck cold. If you run that then there are a few other cards to add. Energy Field is a pretty sweet super pillow fort. Helm of Obedience is a cheap infinite mill combo with that enchantment. I use it in my black deck. If they both resolve, 1 mana exiles a whole deck.

Eater of the Dead is fun with phenax. Not sure if you want him in here though.

I'm super conflicted about leyline of the void. It's an amazing card and would add it in a heartbeat if it was a pure mill deck. But here, it kills half the flexibility of my reanimation package. Plus it seriously cripples my commander. So much of this deck is built around abusing my opponent's graveyard, I feel I'd hurt myself by playing it more often than not.

I'll think about eater. It's a cute infinite combo, but without Phenax it's kind of a dead five frop scratches head

Thanks for the continued input on my projects by the way. Much appreciated.

No problem. Those were just some sudo suggestions for some fun plays.

I have few things that are more serious suggestions. Necropotence, Phyrexian Arena, Mystic Remora, possibly Bloodgift Demon, Vampiric Tutor, Cyclonic Rift, Mystical Tutor

And some lands. Playing tapped lands is really restrictive for any deck especially one that has control aspects. Underground River, City of Brass, the new city of brass

River of Tears-- amazing in control. Gives you black when you play it so you can play a tutor or necropotence or something, but is a blue on your opponent's turn.

Minamo, School at Water's Edge is great. Even if it does not get you super advantage with abilities of your guys. You might really find a useful ability from your opponent, or just allows you to attack, and block with your guy if you need that. Also it is just a utility island. Untapped blue.

River of tears is awesome, and as such, already in my list. The slow mana base is a bit of a necessary evil stemming from having so many awkward UB casting costs, I run so many duals mainly to keep up consistency on that level. In thr end it works out to better speed than single colour fast lands. I'd run Underground Sea gladly, the sad truth is I can't afford to drop 300$ on one land. The taxing mana costs are also why I opted to cut colourless sources. Even Sol Ring. That said, I hadn't thought of Minamo, School at Water's Edge, it will definately be taking the spot of a basic island. City of brass I don't know. I could add either that, or phyrexian arena. Not sure I want to run both. The deck doesn't really run any lifegain, so both of those kind of put me on a serious clock

I've been looking pretty hard at Cyclonic Rift and I think I'll find a slot for it sooner or later. I'm running two tutors so far, demonic and rune-scarred, I'm not sure if I can fit the others in there. But I might if I find myself needing them more.

To consider running Necropotence I'd have to run more combos. Maybe I misunderstand the card, but it seems to me that it's just hurting you more than anything in a multiplayer format with usually 120 life needing to be whittled out. Necropotence only works if you're sure by paying all your life in one turn you'll draw into an insta-win infinite combo or some such. I just can't see how necropotence helps in a typical "grind them out" game. If I'm missing anything here please enlighten me. I'm sick of being the only person who regards necropotence as a bad card in most EDH shells.

Oh, wait, you suggested Underground River, not Underground Sea my bad. Will certainly run that too.

Whoops, missed the river there. Thought I double checked. My bad.

Just one out of fifteen suggestions. Not a big deal

Life is something to use as a resource. How many games will you get arena, city, and necropotence out all at once.

In EDH I think of consistency. If you take a 60 card deck, how many demonic tutors do you want? 4. So you take a 100 card deck, and I would be trying to run a min of 4 tutors, but prob closer to 6-8. Same goes for draw, and ramp. I try to scale for consistency.

Necropotence is broken in combo, but just is also great draw in any other situatiion. I am very comfortable losing 15-20 life in self damage because it will be advancing me beyond my opponent. Shocks, arena, tutors that damage, other lands. It really makes a difference being able to do more. You could always get wurmcoil(great in all EDH decks) for backup life. That is what I do in my esper deck. I take tons of damage through my own moves in that deck, and it pays off. I am also anti lifegain for the sake of gaining life. It does not advance your position in the game, just prolongs it. There are a few wincons you can use with life gain, I am still not a fan though.

Sometimes it is good to add a little Trinket Mage, and tool box. I suggest putting sol ring back. It is too good. Other things that are good for a trinket mage toolbox are Seat of the Synod, Vault of Whispers, Basilisk Collar, Expedition Map, Magma Mine - if you end up with an infinite mana combo in there at some point, Brittle Effigy, and there are other things too, just depends on what you are looking for.

Man, too many useful things to add... I'll have to play it for a while to figure out what to cut.