FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #2
Femme_Fatale but that would make it a completely different deck. The whole "Manifest" thing going on here is what makes this deck fun and original.
February 20, 2015 4:32 p.m.
Uhm.... Ok....
Femme_Fatale.... So, to sum it up, you are saying that I should run polymorph, and then make it black to add a lot more discard. And then take out every blink and almost every search card.... Uhm.... That would totally change the deck. That wouldn't even be a manifest deck anymore! It would just be a polymorph deck.... Which is not my attention....
So, I agree, that this deck is soooo vulnerable to control. However, Boseiju, Who Shelters All is quite good. Soul Summons, Reality Shift (going to add this card), Turn to Mist and Cloudshift are all cards, that are my win con.... Making those uncounterable makes my deck uncounterable.
You are saying, that discard would kill me. No, it usually don't. Yea, they may take my manifest card. Wow. But when I look at the top 4, it is really common to see a manifest card, which I then just draw next turn.
Sideboard is bad, but it is not done.
This is not a polymorph deck. However, that could be really quite funny to make...
February 20, 2015 5:04 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #4
You can't rely on Boseiju, Who Shelters All. I have to hammer this point home. Not all decks use counterspells, so the opponent can just remove your creature in response to the flicker. If they discard the few cards in your hand (you are going to get your hand cluttered with emrakul's and iona's), you are shit out of luck as you just lost your first 2-3 turns of playing. Turn to Mist and Cloudshift do jack shit without a creature, so if they control your creatures it is game over. Cloudform and Soul Summons do jack shit without top deck filtering, so if they discard and counter those it is game over.
The top two decks in modern at the moment are RDW and Abzan. Those both house lots of removal to destroy your game plan. Doing some testing with yours against an Abzan midrange deck, and you just don't have the ability to withstand against it. Not enough counterspells to protect your stuff, and nothing to defend yourself against the opponent having free roam over the board once they spend one removal spell or one counterspell to destroy your game plan.
The deck relies on too much interaction to work. You are essentially doing a 4+ card combo, and let me tell you, 3 card combos with the exception of Storm don't fly in modern.
February 20, 2015 6:02 p.m.
Femme_Fatale is making some good points here, but I think this should explain part of why she is so impassioned about the subject.
February 20, 2015 7:29 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #6
InDirectX hahaha I can see that! Also strange the she changed from Jeskai to Esper in the middle her making the deck... Would explain why she's so keen on that here.
February 20, 2015 8:04 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #7
UWR proved to be convoluted. There aren't many good UWR token procs when compared with esper. Esper has Bitterblossom, Creeping Tar Pit and Lingering Souls, and the deck list looks much more streamlined. When I was running UWR it was full of one ofs and two ofs and the focus was everywhere. Lacking hard removal made me itch for black. Oh, and the mana base was horrendously difficult to manage. With Esper combo control, the only cards I really have to worry about in terms of coloured casting cost are Liliana of the Veil and Creeping Tar Pit. Oh, and don't forget about the Lili hole. That in and of itself is worth using for black, and it works so well with getting rid of an Emrakul from your hand.
February 20, 2015 8:48 p.m.
manu_vignali says... #8
so...let me understand....if you cast a Cloudshift on a manifested non-creature permanent (let's say Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker), it enters the battlefield with no problems!?!?! Amazing!!!
February 21, 2015 5:46 a.m.
On the kitchen table, you could even Cloudshift Gleemax :P
February 21, 2015 7:14 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #10
NorthernRaven could this be at all competitive?
February 21, 2015 8:36 a.m.
You should run 4 Boseijus.
Oh and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur may even be more powerful than Iona. Certainly more versatile. She doesn't do much against 3-color decks. Jin-Gitaxias pretty much closes games. When you only have 1 card in your hand, combos are pretty much cut off. Plus the card draw he gives you could give you another cloudshift and another creature to play.
And I doubt this would be competitive. Not enough different combos. If you went to the same tournament twice, this deck would be dead in the water since it's not hard to prevent the one combo.
February 21, 2015 11:30 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #12
Just from playtesting, it cannot FAMOUSWATERMELON. It wins on rare occasion, but all it takes is a little bit of disruption to destroy it. The main decks in the meta right now aren't things with counterspells but things with hand disruption and removal.
February 21, 2015 12:23 p.m.
Okay, Femme_Fatale.... You clearly doesn't seem to be a fan of the deck.... Which I actually quite understand.
After I have made some playtests (definitely not enough!), I found out, that the deck sometimes can really be inconsistent. When you don't see that Emrakul, or when you just can't find a Manifest spell, it really is quite hard to be as fast as the aggro decks.
And then you talk about control. I have tried to play around the counters with Boseiju, but as you say, every card doesn't counter. Discard and removal are two really common things.
I have basically no way to face discard. If I only have 1 search spell, and it gets ripped, I'm basically dead, which is NOT good. I really like the idea of the deck, but I can clearly see it flaws against some disruption. What about See Beyond? It kind of draws me two cards to negate the discard.... Maybe?
And for removal. First, if my creature gets removed, I am then just going to blink my own creature. I play a manifest card, they remove it, I blink it. If I had multiple manifest cards, I could just play some different ones, and then the opponent don't know which to remove! Also, Cloudform is quite good against removal, but quite bad against counters.
When I made the deck, I didn't think, that I would get 56 upvotes within the first 500 views. Now I feel kind of obligated to make the deck better and better. I can't just forget it. For some reason, most of the T/O community loves this deck. Maybe they just love weird combo decks?
I don't know if this could ever be real competitive. Maybe not, but it's worth to try it out :)
February 21, 2015 4:38 p.m.
blasphemale says... #14
Maybe you could try another version that is more controllish? Add some lands, switch out some of the redundancy for a removal/counter suite? Or go aggro with value manifests and the manifest enhantments such as Lightform, and still keep the bombs in. might need another colour for that though (I'm thinking green for the GW stax decks that have been good in modern), but that shouldn't be really bad as it' modern. You could simply add value aggro creatures that are also great when manifested. I see a lot of options. Might dive into it myself. It's a real pity that modern doesn't have Brainstorm that would totally make this deck waaaay better.
February 21, 2015 5:59 p.m.
A control deck's a good idea. You could also include some white manaramping cards like Weathered Wayfarer or Gift of Estates to help you bring high cost creatures out fairly early anyway. Maybe swap a couple Emrakuls and Ionas out for some 6-cost/7-costs. If somehow your opponent's not getting more land out than a control deck, you can still fall back to controlling them to last until you can bring your big creatures out normally.
February 21, 2015 6:16 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #16
T/O community loves 3 things. Joke decks. Combo decks. And jank decks. The more a deck fits these criterias the more votes it gets.
Manifest is not meant to be combo. Manifest is meant to be value decks. Look at GW manifest in standard. Whisperwood Elemental and the likes. Total beat down and most decks just can't handle it. That's the direction you want to go with manifest but do you know the problem? We already have a much better value deck. And that is Abzan midrange. Tarmogoyf, Siege Rhino and Tasigur, the Golden Fang basically just kill any manifest creature you have.
So the only thing that is left for you to do is go control. Want to know how you go control? You run Akroma, Angel of Fury as your win con. You can draw it, you can manifest it, you can Polymorph it. It works. This way you can run your Eldrazi, your Iona, your Elesh Norn all as one ofs while leaving Akroma, Angel of Fury as the main beater.
February 21, 2015 6:47 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #17
Yeah, I gotta admit that Akroma would pretty much wreck ass if you got her out. Try that.
February 21, 2015 8:40 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #18
And also T/O community loves featured decks and top decks. That's partially why the count is so high here.
February 21, 2015 8:41 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #19
Not really FAMOUSWATERMELON. Otherwise many of my decks would be so high. It just so happens that the jank decks, joke decks or budget decks are also the top decks because of their popularity.
I can make a deck that is really competitive and really unique and it won't really go that high and still catch a shit tonne of views.
February 21, 2015 9:09 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #20
Femme_Fatale I don't agree, but whatever. That's not the point here.
February 21, 2015 9:12 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON take it from the people who have been here a long time. Joke,Jank and Combo will always get higher votes.
February 22, 2015 3:58 a.m.
that being said I like the concept of the deck and I feel it would entertaining to play with.
February 22, 2015 3:59 a.m.
Traveler247 says... #23
I wish Worldly Tutor was legal in Modern so you could splash G for it.
February 22, 2015 8:24 a.m.
Well if it was vintage or legacy I'd say Brainstorm and Brago, King Eternal.
February 22, 2015 7:21 p.m.
This doesn't work, etb effects don't work with manifests, so Iona wouldn't work
Femme_Fatale says... #1
Yes you should NorthernRaven. Because regardless of what you are doing, things like Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Abrupt Decay, Dismember, Path to Exile and Slaughter Pact will ruin your day. If you think Boseiju, Who Shelters All will protect you, think again. Not only do you only have it in your sideboard, but you only have it as a 3 of, and the only cards it actually protects are Soul Summons, Condescend and Turn to Mist. Everything else is completely fair to counter. Now once your opponent realizes you are running Boseiju, Who Shelters All, they will side in Ghost Quarter and Blood Moon against you.
Lantern of Insight is another card to use, but you should focus on the eldrazi so that you can discard them and reshuffle your library with Liliana of the Veil (hint hint, make this esper). In fact, I honestly say that you don't need the lantern or ball effects. Just make this deck a Polymorph deck that also uses Proteus Staff and Bitterblossom. This allows you to run some man lands like Creeping Tar Pit and makes your Cloudform really quite useful. It discards the blink shell and leaves room for a more control deck.
Don't forget that your sideboard is utterly terrible, and your deck isn't even modern legal. You can't run 7 copies of Condescend.
February 20, 2015 4:28 p.m.