Good job, 'brudder! Used to regard Kraum/Tymna pair as an inferior alternative to Thrasios/Tymna, but this deck, to some extent, changes my opinion.

One question, though. What do you think of an inclusion of Pestilence and/or Pyrohemia? A cmc of 4 is a pain, but they have potential of hosing creatures and synergy with Swans of Bryn Argoll might be the icing on the cake. Decent in a slower meta, perhaps?

spuiopq: Thanks brother. I am pretty happy with the deck. I am working on 3 of these decks at the moment and this is quickly becoming my favorite as it plays to reds "strengths" so well. With that being said I still have some tweaking to do.

I think the cards you mentioned have some merit assuming you know your meta and most everyone is on creatures. Having it as a wincon with angel's grace is a nice perk and its very opporessive to bear decks. Unless they hit 2-3 opponents hard they are not worth it though as you pay 5 just to get any value and they are in hard colors for this deck. I try to keep my expensive cards to a minimum for Naus and for speed of getting online. I think for creature control I would chose deluge first tbh as we dont need the wincon and its super efficient and can hit big targets for 3

Lilbrudder:

Thanks for the reply. I personally have a soft spot on those vintage enchantments with dubious usage, so that overlooked the fact that they're pretty colour-intensive. I have a bear-heavy meta myself, so they might be included regardless.

On the other hand, I've just come across the absence of Suppression Field in the deck. almost no anti-synergy issues as it seems, I don't see a reason to exclude this. It's not for everyone, of course, but would you please further explain? Thanks.

Honestly, I have been trying to convince myself to bring it back and probably will for Canonist. Its just too powerful and the price is right. It does make my non infinite scepter shenanigans worse, and my top worse, and there is fetchlands to consider, but yeah its pretty badass. While the deck can technically win through canonist its not ideal and we want people to play spells so they pay us cards. Rule of Law just does not play super nice with this deck. Getting field back in makes copy enchantment a little better as well and I want that card bad for double rhystic. In my last two games with my sans red version of this deck (mystic remora+Rhystic) has drawn me roughly 30 cards each game over about 1-2 turns. Its kind of ridiculous how freely people feed the control deck and advance our gameplan for us.

However, with a primary game plan of plasma swans and a potential beat down, don't think there's much to fear for the downside of Suppression Field. Moreover, a Rule of Law effect does make Kraum worse. Having commented under the HE-MAN deck list, I've shown some doubts with Copy Enchantment, namely whether there's a fair chance to successfully get a double Mystic Remora/Rhystic Study/Suppression Field? Thanks.

Pardon me for the sloppy comprehension and a moot reply. The Rule of Law effect and non-infinite scepter have a strong synergy, indeed. Therefore, the choice might be more of a meta call.

Sure that does, but Kraum wants people to play more than one spell a turn and people pay for rhystic and remora if they only cast 1 spell a turn. Also we cant ad naus angels grace, cant protect notion thief wheel except with counterblance and we have to pass turn and risk being countered or removed on Swans plasma.

Point taken, and thanks. I couldnt help but notice a lack of Timetwister. Is it a budget thing (being the case for myself, unfortunately)?

Btw, is there a chance that Laboratory Maniac be replaced by Sickening Dreams? Slightly less dead outside combo, and a wincon with naus/grace/yawgwin, with an upside (though meagre) of instakill if Telling Time becomes Quicken. Being a spell has some obvious merit, and the cmc total is slightly lowered.

I play on trice and play edh which allows proxies so budget is never a consideration lol. I thought twister was in the deck, but I dont know if I love all 3 wheels. Twister does allow me to bring atuff in the yard back and may be better than wheel of fortune. Then again wheel of fortune feeds yawgwin so idk. The idea of sickening dreams is pretty damn interesting tbh. I may well drop labman for it. I cant think of many advantages labman has right now besides corner lifegain cases and tymna beats :shrug:

Lilbrudder:

It's good to see your update, pity for the swans, though. Looking forward to your test results and the follow-up. Good luck!

Thanks brother. Yeah poor swans. Lil fellers are just so unremarkable. I just don't think we need a 7 mana thief+wheel combo (over two turns) AND two main phase 6 mana combos. They will definitely find their way back in the deck at least once (to trigger opponents), but Toxic Deluge and Vandalblast just tickles that part of me that wants to see the world burn. Having the ability to ruin creatures and rocks so Kraum can look down with MAN-ly scorn is such an advantage over the meta. I got to maximize that vice grip. I will keep you posted .

spuiopq: I just realized I ignored one of your questions. Getting double rhystic and double rhystic+remora is suprisingly easy to pull off as they draw into the other pieces or tutors. I don't think this version needs that much devotion to those cards to include a card like copy enchantment. Sorry for the oversight

Ah, I also didn't realize it since you've replied my nearly-identical question under labman's HEMAN decklist already. Thank you and nevermind, anyway. Accord to the exclusion of Copy Enchantment, I may safely assume the deck has more sheer draw power than its sans-red counterpart, right?

I suspect it might do better in that regard. I really don't know for certain how it will play out over many games.

Lilbrudder:

All due respect, I find the deck a little thin on both graveyard recursions and hates, comparing to the sans-red counterparts. Rest in Peace and Timetwister may give rise to the current state, I guess. However, due to the fact Timetwister being a card that not everyone can afford, while Rest in Peace screwing us no less harder than the opponents, it might be necessary to find alternatives, decent if not better.

With Silent Gravestone and Grafdigger's Cage as the two most efficient pieces of graveyard hate apart from exiling, they each provide an approach to break parity. Grafdigger's Cage holds back casting from graveyards effects on one hand, namely Yawgmoth's Will, Past in Flames, and other cards that have or grant flashback, but gives permission to regrowth effects. That's the route sans-red decks have followed, and Ashes of the Abhorrent could be added to supplement the plan. On the other hand, however, while Silent Gravestone has nothing to do with graveyard casting, it does hamper cards like Regrowth, and common spell recursion in the form of Snapcaster Mage and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy  ^Flip. Problem is, the other card that have an identical effect is the green Ground Seal, which is out of question, and although Yawgmoth's Will is good enough, it's an one-off, and too often too mana-intensive casting a full combo. Meanwhile, Past in Flames, yawgwin's narrower counterpart, is just worse, usage confined in storm decks.

One can always pivot to the former plan, using sub-par recursion spells like Argivian Find, or even Replenish if enchantment heavy. Since the green counterparts can do better, why bother?

While itself being problematic, I propose Mizzix's Mastery as a backup plan. Worst case scenario, it's an over-costed removal spell. But once you've got Ad Nauseam, Angel's Grace, and probably Sickening Dreams in the bin, you can overload it and win on the spot. On more obscure occasions, a Quickened overload can be cast end of a turn of Necropotence. That said, not convincing enough even to myself, not to mention the conflict of the original version and Silent Gravestone.

Another possible solution might be Waste Not and Ill-Gotten Gains. It might sounds crazy, but with all the open information, the opponents might actually be more perplexed than us, especially when having a combo at hand. Plus, Waste Not has good synergy with wheels, act as a quasi Notion Thief, and works with Humility.

Hope you've got great results testing the deck. Good luck.

I must admit I am a bit perplexed by your comment bud. Its probably me as I dont always explain things fully. We have exactly the same amount of gravehate as the original. We have RIP (which effects exactly 1 card in the deck; 1 less than sans red) and I swapped out cage for silent gravestone as it allows us to yawgwin but stops regrowth effects. I think snapcaster mage is defensible as a way to get the double windfall line but I wouldnt use anything else as it is either too narrow, too low quality, or two expensive.

I have gotten to 2 grave hate cards by choice as I think most decks run an obligatory grave hate card so I can get by with just the most efficient (gravestone) and powerful (RIP).

With regard to Yawgwin it serves as a giant value spell (sans RIP) which also helps us win the game without scepter. Mana is not an issue tbh as dramatic reversal produces insane mana off an ad naus grace and yawgwin allows us to flash it back again. Our backup in that scenario is chain of vapor which can also get us there.

So far testing is going great. The deck has performed wonderfully. The issue is it does not uet have a competant pilot :-)

Good to hear that the test went well!

RIP is good, but sometimes I find it a bit too symmetrical. That's why I wonder if there's any substitute serving the plan even better. Pardon me if the comment baffled you, for English is not my mother tongue, and the vainly quest for a better piece might have had my mind cranked.

Anyway, thank you for the reply. I might as well stick to the status quo and may the opponents rest in peace. Happy gaming!

No worries bud, you speak english 100% better than I speak anything (except Merican). Yeah RIP sucks in that way, but the 2 mana cost and absolute lockdown is just priceless. Its one of those card that can KO an opponent so I have decided to build around it. I think if I had more than 1-2 graveyard matters card I would be more inclinded to use leyline. Getting rid of RIP and adding more graveyard cards (i.e Dark petition) is certainly justifiable

Also wheel of fortune is a wonderful alternative to Timetwister if you want to profit from the yard.

Thanks for the reply. I do think Wheel is good, and since I'm nowhere near a Power 9, it deserves a place almost definitely. For that reason, I'm a little bit inclined to make more use of the yard. However, Even though it is one-sided, I'm still reluctant to consider Leyline due to its cost. Maybe I'll try Samurai of the Pale Curtain to see how frequently it'll backfire.

Concerning the manabase, if I may ask, how does the current land count, namely 30 with a tabernacle, work for you? I used to be at 29, with all the card filtering in the deck, and still missing early-game land drops sometimes, so it worries me a little more, for a deck less stax and more control.

spuiopq: Samurai seems really bad for many reasons. I would suggest Planar Void if you want a cheap alternative to RIP/Leyline but even then why not just play RIP as both are universal effects. As for mana base I sometimes will miss a land drop, but usually its fine. If we get our engines online we will have plenty of extra draws. If you wanted to add a land I think that is fine and Tabernacle is optional so you could just do a straight 30 with no utility land.

Lilbrudder: Thoughts on Tainted Pact/Laboratory Maniac? None of the hate pieces hinder LabMan. It does want more cantrips but Tymna acts as a cantrip in the command zone. It's a shame there isn't the Kess line of Pact-Labman-Pact-Cantrip but you can't always have your cake and eat it too. It can replace the YawgWheel line in Adnaus, making graveyard hate easier for the deck (taking out YWill).

GitGudFrog: I like it! I am going to give it a test run. It makes our endstep naus more viable as we have another 2ish card combo to go for and it makes our primary combo less janky. Also 0% antisynergy for RIP is hella cool and I can play grafdiggers cage again. I dropped Linvala as 4 mana double white is hard and replaced my 2 of my 3 basic islands with a snow covered and a Shivan Reef as I wanted another red source (shockingly). We shall see how it goes.

Your suggestion immediately paid off. Got a turn 4 labman pact win for my only win of the night. Thanks brother.

Very nice! Now we just have to cry as our scepter line is mucked by the new spoiler Damping Sphere.