Infect is an easy matchup, and burn isn't terrible either. Tokens isn't bad against combo in general, just specific combo decks like scapeshift. Are you building this to fit your local meta?
May 2, 2016 12:03 p.m.
CavalryWolfPack says... #3
@xzzane Infect is pretty rough if you have a bad opener and Burn can just crush us. Bitterblossom doesn't help either.
May 2, 2016 12:10 p.m.
CavalryWolfPack, I'm not a huge fan of shambling vent here. it is a good utility land, but it doesn't do as much as windbrisk heights in here. I do like the idea of Gideon however. Im going to work him in.
xzzane, I disagree that infect is an easy matchup for this exact build. if I don't open with a path, I generally lose game one. burn is really really hard for this deck to win against game one, because thoughtseize and bitterblossom do a lot of the work for them. If I don't lose before I play sorin, than that is great, but it doesn't always happen that way. I am building this for my meta. My meta is chock full of junk, jund and control. Tokens just seems the best way to go with it.
May 2, 2016 12:12 p.m.
CavalryWolfPack, I think I am going to try Elspeth, Knight-Errant over gideon
May 2, 2016 12:16 p.m.
LordDerrien says... #7
This deck looks quite amazing! A few suggestions of mine would be:
Dark Confidant for card draw; Spectral Procession would have to be replaced, but awesome card draw in a low CMC deck would be the upside. I think it is a matter of taste and might be a horrible idea, because he enables the enemies removal, but still worth a consideration for when he sticks around...
Anguished Unmaking in low numbers (one-of maybe) for MB or SB, because it is a 'catch-all' answer for taking car of things, that need to be taken care off. The life loss schould be negligible for your deck and the added utility a great upside.
Westvale Abbey Flip is an awesome land to play in a deck, that plays so many creatures. A simple one-of does not strain the mana-base, but adds the ability to churn out 1/1 tokens and in the end a 'can you answer this?' - threat.
A 9/7 Haste, Flying, Lifelink and Indestructible either gets destroyed or ends the game. You have the advantage of hand disruption and the ability to take Path to Exile from the enemy. One of the only MB viable answers to him.
Secure the Wastes can be a very strong card to play. Maybe not the playset, but a two-of. The strongest it can do is being cast in the enemies turn for messing up combat math or at the end of turn to have them ready once its your turn again. Obviously it scales quite good into late game and has great synergy with Westvale Abbey Flip.
Liliana of the Veil might be worth a thought. It would further enhance the pressure through hand disruption and pressure the enemy board through using her -2. It would also be a hard counter to bogles in the Mainboard. She may be not needed at all, but I lke to mention her, if somebody play 6+ Thoughtseize cards.
The only cards, that I really do not like in this deck are Timely Reinforcements, because this card could literally always be a dead draw. Maybe sideboard, but not mainboard. Also Altar's Reap; the card is actually not bad, but I kinda feel there could be better. While you are admittedly playing with huge board states, I do not like sacrificing for drawing. Might just be totally irrational.
Anyways, I really like your deck and B/W Tokens was always on my mind recently, because I could easily transform my Mardu Aristocrats deck into this archetype. +1
May 2, 2016 12:35 p.m. Edited.
Infect is an easy matchup, trust me. We have hand disruption to take out their key cards, and if they don't have an unblockable card then we have a plethora of chump blockers. With the right build, burn is definitely managable. We are capable of mainboarding both Auriok Champion and Timely Reinforcements. I know what I'm talking about, trust me.
Dark Confidant is suicidal with Spectral Procession, and spectral is too good to take out. I've tried.
Anguished Unmaking is good, I run one in the main one in the side.
Westvale Abbey Flip is both expensive and win-more. Not worth it.
Secure the Wastes isn't worth the cut. It's better in Raise the Alarm shells.
Liliana of the Veil is great in certain metas, but I'm not sure she has a place in this meta. I used to run her as a 2 of.
Altar's Reap is an admirable way to try to get more card draw, but it isn't worth it.
May 2, 2016 12:49 p.m. Edited.
LordDerrien, Bob would actually do much more harm than good. Life loss is a serious issue that this deck has. Sorin and vault of the archangel are where the lifegain comes from, but sorin is counterable and very answerable and ghost quarter is played in almost every deck. Bob would inevitably kill me alongside bitterblossom. That is the same reason I won't play anguished unmaking. Can't lose too much life. I love the idea of the abbey in this deck, so I will be working it in. Lili is far too expensive. I own a playset for online purposes, but don't think I will be buying any in paper. Thanks for the suggestions and the upvote!
May 2, 2016 12:50 p.m.
LordDerrien says... #10
@Sergal Always happy to help! If Life loss is such a great issue, maybe Shambling Vent?
@xzzane I agree with almost everything you said; just not Westvale Abbey Flip, she is too good to pass up. You do not have to crack her, sometimes it is enough to have a great sink for mana and getting 1/1 bodies.
Win more could hold true to some extent, if 5x 2/2 fliers are out thanks to Intangible Virtue, but still Ormendahl, Profane Prince Flip could be good for gaining a massive amount of life.
May 2, 2016 12:58 p.m.
Shambling Vent is good; I run 2 myself.
I have tested Westvale Abbey Flip. The making token ability is too expensive, and I'm not just referring to mana. There is a reason why tokens doesn't like to play multiple Bitterblossoms. The life loss for a non-flyer just wasn't worth it. In order to trigger the flip, you need a massive field presence, and by that time you're winning already. Not to mention that it's a bad idea to overextend.
May 2, 2016 1:02 p.m.
LordDerrien says... #12
Ok, could only speak from an Aristocrats perspective. In that type of deck it is well worth it, but seemingly only, because of Zulaport Cutthroat. This also makes it into a 14 point life swing. First drain for five through sacrificing tokens and than 9 lifelink damage from Ormendahl, Profane Prince Flip.
Consolidates the fact, that B/W tokens is more about cost and card effective beatdown, while at least Mardu Aristocrats is more a mixture of drain and beatdown through Sacrifice-Outlets.
I am actually thinking about Bitterblossom in Aristocrats now, because Zulaport Cutthroat negates the damage from token producing.
May 2, 2016 3:27 p.m.
Tyrannosary says... #13
I think 24 lands is too much for the curve you have. 22 would probably be better.
May 6, 2016 9:55 a.m.
Tyrannosary, there are 3 utility lands in here which are not being tapped for mana the majority of the time. Also, trying to consistently get to 4-5 lands in 4-5 turns get hard without extra lands. The original deck which is linked in the description has 25 in the list. I cut one because i thought 24 was the sweet spot.
May 6, 2016 10 a.m.
RamblinMan says... #16
xzzane, get over here!
Also, you have way too many lands that don't tap for white to be running Spectral Procession and have it have any hope of casting T3.
May 26, 2016 12:07 a.m.
At 6 lands that are incapable of producing mana, you're going to run into a lot of trouble casting Spectral Procession on turn 3 - sometimes we don't draw Lingering Souls, and not having flying tokens up is a massive loss of tempo. Either compensate by going downa spectral - though this would mean you have less token producers, and effectively less win conditions - or replace some of the non white mana producing lands with lands that can produce white. For example, Urborg is unnecessary, and you don't need 2 Vault of the Archangel. Prioritize Temple Garden over Overgrown Tomb because after turn 1 mana becomes much higher priority.
May 26, 2016 12:19 a.m.
xzzane, i haven't once had a problem with the landbase. There are 8 fetches in the deck, so color fixing has never been an issue. Playtest the deck and you will see that turn 3 spectral is always do able.
May 26, 2016 9:10 a.m.
I have issues getting spectral out with my own deck every now then, and my own deck has a more optimal land base than yours for getting out spectral. To say that you haven't had an issue once with this deck leads me to think you haven't tested it enough; even with the perfectland base, variance would still cause issues every now and then. Fetches are great, I run 8 myself, but relying on them for triple mana of the same color on turn 3 is pushing it.
May 26, 2016 9:59 a.m.
xzzane, Generally, i am not going for spectral on turn 3 so much as i am turn 4. Generally i like turn 2 bitterblossom, turn 3 intangible virtue, turn 4 spectral, turn 5 sorin. I try to get the engine out as soon as possible. I have played this deck extensively, and can only recall one time that spectral wasn't castable when i was at 3 lands. But thats only because i fetched overgrown to cast abrupt decay. Next turn i played a land and cast it. I proxied this deck and have played it at my LGS against level 1 judges that play on professional levels. I usually win. Spectral doesnt HAVE to be cast for 3 white. Just like dismember doesnt HAVE to be cast for 1 and 4 life. Its more efficient to do it that way, but it has alternative costs.
May 26, 2016 10:22 a.m.
A turn 4 spectral would be perfectly doable with this deck. Keep in mind though that by not having a lingering souls or spectral on turn 2 you're losing a lot of tempo. Against aggro dexks like merfolk or zoo, going turn 3 spectral into turn 4 sorin, SV can make a game changing difference in the outcome of the game. I'm well aware of the alternate costs of things, I'm just worried that you'll be weaker to aggro decks with that setup. We already do really well against grindy midrange decks like jund or abzan as it is; we don't need to devote more resources to being better at those kinds of decks.
May 26, 2016 10:34 a.m.
One or more Wilt-Leaf Liege seems like a solid addition, perhaps in place of a Sorin. I play Wilted Junk in modern and getting off a Liege with a bunch of Lingering Souls tokens is usually really strong; and it makes your Voice of Resurgence & Voice tokens nuts. It doesn't buff Bitterblossom tokens, which I can see would be annoying, but it's certainly both an impactful midrange threat and a token anthem, which are the two cores of the deck.
CavalryWolfPack says... #1
I personally run a split of Windbrisk Heights and Shambling Vent. I would try a one of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. A lot of people say it works great for them. Zealous Persecution isn't just for Twin. Affinity and Elves just fold to it, and against Burn it drastically changes combat math. I would put at least one in the main and always have one in the side.
May 2, 2016 11:57 a.m.