Crow_Umbra says... #2
I agree with plainsrunner. I'm currently trying out Karlach in my Isshin deck. I like it a bit more that Aurelia and some of the other extra combat creatures since Karlach doesn't have to attack to trigger. Making sure you have a volume of Vigilance anthems will help though.
Reconnaissance is an awesome pseudo-Vigilance anthem, and also helps protect your creatures at end of combat. I see you have it in Maybeboard already. Tocasia's Welcome would also be a good fit for your deck, since you seem token focused.
Of all the creatures in your 99, Phyrexian Dragon Engine Meld and Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines feel like kinda awkward fits. Having played Mishra, Claimed by Gix Meld, this dude alone is a closer/win-con for Isshin token decks. Elesh Norn mostly feels awkward because you don't really have ETBs to double, but I do recognize how powerful it is to turn off opponents' ETBs. Torpor Orb is another option if that's of interest, but is symmetrical.
Since I don't see them in your maybeboard, I highly recommend Impact Tremors, Witty Roastmaster, and Purphoros, God of the Forge. At least one of those paired with creature token production can help round out your group slug and damage effects. Purph is the least budget, but having the Indestructible makes it difficult to deal with.
January 17, 2023 12:58 p.m.
@ plainsrunner and Crow-Umbra(Cool name btw) Thank you both for the suggestions and help! This was the average deck on EDHREC, and I will be making cuts post haste! I already switched out Blasphemous Act for Wrath of God, but now I'm leaning towards Toxic Deluge. I'm not sure why so many decks run Blasphemous, as I tend to encounter either permission or indestructible often enough that it seems over valued among the EDH community. Anyway, good to see some auto cuts. @ Crow-Umbra I have a Purph deck already, and love how quick it can be, so the idea of leaning into tokens with Purph is obviously already up my alley. I like the idea of extra combats, but if they aren't untapping each time, then I see that point very clearly. I was thinking of putting in Gisela, Blade of Goldnight, and it looks like I'll have the space right away. Thanks for all the feedback, and please keep it coming!
January 17, 2023 8:06 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #4
It sounds like you're on the right track with your swaps plainsrunner. I'm glad you have a Purph already, because it is an absolute heater in Isshin. It's helped me close out a few games, especially once I crank out tokens enough. Toxic Deluge is good if you have a lot of indestructible in your meta.
Slaughter the Strong and Retribution of the Meek are both potentially asymmetrical options, especially since they let you save Isshin. Promise of Loyalty is another wipe I've had some decent success with in other decks. I think Farewell is probably your best option. Ruinous Ultimatum is good, but the restrictive cost has hampered me in a couple games, so I nixed it recently.
I think the extra combats are a sliiiight trap, but I haven't played one out irl to finalize judgement. My ideal scenario is to have extra combats paired with any of the group slug options, eliminating some need for all creature damage to connect or be spread out.
If you lean into tokens I also highly recommend Plumb the Forbidden and Scapegoat as draw & protection options. In a game I played this past weekend, I played a Plumb the Forbidden in response to a Living Death. I was able to get Isshin and Grave Titan in my yard before Living Death resolved, and they both came back upon its resolution; I also had Purph on board. I closed the game out a turn or two later.
January 17, 2023 8:40 p.m. Edited.
Crow_Umbra says... #5
Whoops, just realized I meant to tag you in my last response Michigone, and not Plainsrunner.
I like the updates that you've made since I last looked at your list. If you like Captain's Clawsm I'd recommend checking out Inquisitorial Rosette. The equip cost is steeper, but it produces beefier tokens with Vigilance, and is also a Menace anthem to boot.
I'd recommend adding a bit more draw to your deck. I counted about 7-9ish effects that net you some type of card draw or advantage. Since you have a lot of token creating effects, I think that Skullclamp could be right at home here. I think getting about 3-4 more drawing effects in your deck could help it feel a bit more fluid & consistent.
I know I already mentioned them in my last comment, but Tocasia's Welcome and Plumb the Forbidden are both excellent draw options in token focused strategies. I use them both, along with Skullclamp in my Isshin deck to decent success. Tocasia's Welcome might look a little modest because it only draws once per turn, but is fairly reliable if you have a lot creature generating effects. A couple of repeatable draw effects will bolster the one-off and burst draw effects you already have.
Lastly, I'd recommend checking out Ogre Battledriver, since you have Ardoz, Cobbler of War in deck. Haste anthem volume is really helpful with the reliability of some of your big finisher creatures.
January 22, 2023 8:56 p.m.
@Crow-Umbra Thanks for all the awesome feedback! I really appreciate you taking the time to give me some solid pointers to really make this deck pop. Okay, Inquisitorial Rosette in for Captain's Claws, 100% easiest switch ever! And where would you make some cuts to the deck in order to fit in Skullclamp, Plumb the Forbidden, and possibly Esper Sentinel?
January 23, 2023 12:47 p.m.
also, @Crow-Umbra, what's your take on putting in some tutors? I own the big ones, but haven't really envisioned Isshin as needing tutors. I could slot in Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Imperial Seal, you name it. But I don't know the deck well enough yet to say in a given situation, "I need card X in order to win."
January 23, 2023 1:07 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #8
No prob Michigone! I've had a lot of fun playing Isshin for almost a year now.
Honestly, I think you could cut a couple of your higher end CMC. I had Etali in my Isshin deck for a while, but cut it because it felt too boom or bust. In general, I think keeping your curve low will help with recovery against removal. For this reason I also cut Paladin Class from my deck fairly early. Too much mana investment for the effects.
I think Tutors can certainly help. I currently run Diabolic Intent because of my high token production. I think as long as you have enough repeatable draw, you should be fine. I usually tutor up board protection effects or finishers.
January 23, 2023 1:19 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #9
- cut higher end CMC creatures.
If you have a lot of token strats in your meta, I'd recommend checking out Authority of the Consuls & Legion Loyalist. I think ETB damage effects will also be your best friend to help you get "around" those boards.
January 23, 2023 1:34 p.m.
After looking at my deck list, I've realized that the deck functions highly around creatures getting their attack triggers doubled, which is obvious. What's not so obvious is that almost all the creatures are four cmc or above, which means Sun Titan doesn't really grab me back much value in terms of what the deck needs to win. It's really just a lot of artifacts that are ramp related. So with that in mind, I'm cutting Sun Titan and putting in Marton Stromgald. I think this will help with combat and reduce my curve which was a recommendation from Crow-Umbra and is good practice when making a deck that's more aggro. I also really want to put Karlach, Fury of Avernus back in, as even just the one additional combat is fantastic for the deck and proc-ing triggers.
January 28, 2023 12:48 p.m.
January 28, 2023 12:50 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #12
Marton Stromgald is a decent swap Michigone. I'd also recommend checking out Delina, Wild Mage as another potential swap with Marton. The tokens she creates aren't Legendary.
I'd also recommend Grave Titan as a potential swap with Sun Tian. Creates tokens on both ETB & attack, if that's something you'd like.
In case you haven't seen them, there are a few new creatures in All Be One main & commander sets that are worth a look at:
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Skyhunter Strike Force: a mini Adriana, Captain of the Guard, with Flying to boot.
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Neyali, Suns' Vanguard: double strike anthem for creature tokens, & can dig 2-6 cards on impulse draws with Isshin out.
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Otharri, Suns' Glory: Has Haste & flying, & can potentially be recurred.
January 28, 2023 1:23 p.m.
@Crow-Umbra Thanks for all the awesome suggestions! I looked over the spoilers and added the cards you talked about (they all made sense in terms of token support and impetus draw) and saw a token doubler in Mondrak, Glory Dominus that can protect itself! I think leaning into the token theme might be the best way to go, and I've had a couple of games recently where I'm not really producing tokens at the rate I want to be. So with that in mind, I made some changes to the deck to support tokens and produce more of them.
January 29, 2023 5:36 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #14
Your updates look pretty solid Michigone.
I had a chance to play-test proxies of both Mondrak, Glory Dominus & Skyhunter Strike Force this past weekend. Mondrak's self-protection let dodge a couple board wipes, & was a great chump blocker.
Skyhunter Strike Force felt good to play in mid-late game. I reached a point where I had a decent board of tokens & Mondrak. I was able to cast Strike Force & recast Isshin in one turn, then have a little mana leftover for protection.
Impressed with both so far. I'm sure you'll like them when you get a chance to play them.
January 29, 2023 6:25 p.m.
January 31, 2023 11:07 a.m.
Deck needs more card draw, and ramp and lands are just about right, may cut a single land, not sure. But more card draw is needed, and so Campaign of Vengeance is getting moved to the maybe board because I already have effects that are similar, and Skullclamp is getting added to the deck. This was a suggestion by Crow-Umbra and I think it's the right call.
January 31, 2023 11:11 a.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #17
Lookin good! If you like Revenge of Ravens and Emberwilde Captain, you might want to consider swapping Revenge of Ravens with Marchesa's Decree. Marchesa's Decree and Emberwilde Captain can work together in tandem.
Similarly, Norn's Decree is a kinda pillow fort/draw effect in a somewhat similar vein as Karazikar, the Eye Tyrant and Breena, the Demagogue. Norn's Decree might be a bit more useful if you have a lot of Goad in your meta.
Lastly, Gruesome Realization is like a Night's Whisper with the additional modal option to soften up an opponent's board before a swing, if needed.
January 31, 2023 11:25 a.m. Edited.
@Crow-Umbra - Thanks for the awesome suggestions! Marchesa's Decree is a good potential switch for Revenge of Ravens, as it gives me more card draw, and I really want to find a home for Gruesome Realization. As you pointed out, the modality is fantastic. My current meta really only has Kardur, Doomscourge as a commander for goad, and the deck is essentially just the per-con at this point, as the player is brand new to magic and bought two of the starter commander decks to play with us.
January 31, 2023 12:20 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #19
My personal playgroup implemented a house rule that introduces Monarch to each game, only if there isn't a Monarch deck at the table. Basically, the last person in turn order becomes the Monarch at the end of their 3rd turn. It's made our games a lot more fun and dynamic, but it's also removed my personal need for any Monarch cards in my decks.
I've tried pillow fort effects in my deck and eventually moved on to just lean as much into aggro and group slug as possible. Personal preference thing for sure. Pillow Fort effects can put in work in the right metas.
You could potentially swap Read the Bones for Gruesome Realization. Not getting the Scry 2 is a bit of a bummer, but the trade off for the modal option isn't too bad.
One of my friends in my meta has decks for Kardur, Doomscourge and Marisi, Breaker of the Coil respectively. Kardur can get nasty with just a bit of upgrading, especially with a Conjurer's Closet or reanimation effects. That friend is moving away, so I might not see those commanders as often, LGS variety aside.
January 31, 2023 12:30 p.m.
From the beginning, I liked that this deck focused on the attack trigger. In looking at EDHREC and other people's builds, I've always wondered about inclusions that have myriad, whether it was Battle Angels of Tyr or Hammers of Moradin or even Blade of Selves. And I've had discussions where the other player has made solid points about inclusions, from tapping down creatures to card draw to life gain to ramp, and those are valid. BUT (You knew there was a but in there somewhere), for me, if you can't double it, it just seems like I want to slot something else in that can be doubled. Now with all that said, card draw in Mardu is one of the major challenges of the deck space, and each card draw slot must be examined extremely carefully when thinking about a cut for something else.
It is with this balancing act in mind that I decided to cut Emberwilde Captain, a card that offers both card draw and politicking. I know that sounds crazy, but my justifications are thus. When he ETBs, I become the monarch, which is great, an extra card draw at the end of my turn is always amazing. Additionally, he provides me with a little security, in that for an opponent to attack me while I'm the monarch, he will deal direct damage to them equal to double the amount of cards in their hand. That also sounds good right? Well here is the issue with the Captain. 1) What does my deck do? It swings, often with all my creatures, as even the tokens I control usually enter tapped and attacking. So what does that leave me with for blockers so that I can retain my monarch status? Nothing, I'm usually wide open. Which might make you say well yeah, but what about his second ability? Which leads me very nicely to point 2) In decks that want to attack me to win, my assumption is that those decks probably aren't heavy on card draw either, so they may take 6-8 damage from swinging at me. Not really a lot of damage in commander, certainly not enough to warrant holding back on attacking me. Additionally, in the act of attacking with Isshin, my board state is going to make blink deck level changes and hopefully do a ton of damage, drawing a massive target on my back. So the first player to attack me once Emberwilde Captain is out is going to feel a bit of a sting, but the next two players won't feel that same sting when attacking me, as the monarch is most likely someone else at the table now. And an additional card draw is not enough of an incentive for those other players to warrant attacking the monarch, when they've seen my deck go from six o'clock to midnight. And maybe you're wondering about decks that draw a lot of cards and aim to have max hand sizes. Those decks aren't winning through attacking me. So they're not concerned about a single additional card draw on my part at the end of my turn when I have to wait a full turn around the table to utilize it. They'll just combo out. So Emberwilde Captain provides a single additional draw and little deterrent for the slot it takes up in the deck.
So what to replace it with? Well, like I've mentioned earlier, I've kicked around the idea of myriad, but always found it to be not on theme enough for my taste. I even cut Delina, Wild Mage from my deck for a while because the tokens she generates don't benefit from Isshin, as they are never declared as attackers. Which is dumb, I know, because I realized that I could target Isshin, resolve Delina's attack trigger first and have multiple copies of Isshin out to triple (or more) other attack triggers on the stack. He, you live and you learn right, we all make mistakes sometimes. ANYWAY... sorry for the rambling, what happened is a friend reminded me of Helm of the Host. A light bulb went off in my head! Instead of doubling, how about tripling? Dare we even dream of quadrupling? I already loved how it worked with Delina, why not have redundancy (my favorite thing when deck building)? So Helm is in, Captain is out, and I'm going to keep tuning!
February 5, 2023 3:46 p.m.
February 5, 2023 3:51 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #22
I like your detailed update Michigone. I had a very similar realization with Emberwilde Captain & some of the other pillow fort effects.
They were clunky in that I wanted them to dissuade attacks at me, but their benefits happened if people attacked me. Often times people I played against would remove either Isshin & tank through standard triggers from the pillow effects, or removed the pillow effect all together.
I may re-examine Neyali, Suns' Vanguard at some point as a potential swap with Professional Face-Breaker. I do like that Face-Breaker is kind of like a Tymna the Weaver, except with treasures & impulse. Neyali's "no time limit" is cool, I just didn't like having my instant speed protection/removal stuck in impulse, & hampering that reactive element.
Drawing in these colors is a balancing act that takes plenty of playing to see what feels right.
My only knock against Helm of the Host is that it's 9 total mana to cast & equip to something.
February 5, 2023 4:54 p.m.
You know Crow-Umbra, the point you make about Neyali, Suns' Vanguard is a very valid point. I feel like I rely on my spot removal significantly to clear the way or remove stax or whatever. And having it stuck in exile where I might not be able to get to it would feel bad. I was thinking of revisiting Tectonic Giant as a switch because six damage to each opponent's face is 18 damage in a 4 player pod, which is not insignificant. The other card I was thinking of is Sigiled Sword of Valeron as it provides vigilance, which the deck could always use because of the amount of attacking it does, and it makes tokens - which is what the deck is all about - which also happen to be vigilant. And those tokens are knights, which is a small sub theme in the deck (the only support being Myrel, Shield of Argive, but still).
Thoughts?
February 5, 2023 5:14 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #24
Neyali is cool, but I think she may be better off at the helm of her own 99. I run a handful of instant speed protection effects, & having those stuck in impulse isn't ideal.
Personally, I like Tectonic Giant. I did a recent 1-year comparison of my earliest version(s) of the deck, vs where it's at now. I think Tectonic Giant is one of about 10 creatures that have stayed in deck since day 1.
I like the versatility in Tectonic Giant being a group slug or minor impulse draw effect if needed. I use the burn option more often, but have used the impulse on occasion.
I personally like Inquisitorial Rosette, which you already have in 99, a bit more than Sigiled Sword. Rosette is 1 mana less to cast & equip, & it anthems your entire board instead of just 1 creature.
Again, just my personal playstyle, but I'm not super big on other equipment options for Isshin, aside from Swiftfoot Boots, Lightning Greaves, Captain's Claws, Inquisitorial Rosette, Skullclamp, & Sword of the Animist.
February 5, 2023 5:51 p.m.
Change Log 06-Feb-2023
Move to Maybe Board:
Move to Main Deck:
plainsrunner says... #1
I feel like Karlach, Fury of Avernus will do work in this deck, but maybe not as much work as you'd think. Your commander will double its triggered ability, so you'll get two additional combat steps, but both untaps will happen immediately, so your creatures won't be untapped at the start of your third combat, unless you have Brave the Sands out. Having multiple combats on a stick in this deck is still great, just wanted to make sure you were aware of the non-bo.
January 17, 2023 12:32 p.m.