It's generally the artifacts removal i'm more interested in. But you are absolutely right, i'm not EXTREMELY sad to see him go, since he saves something else that gets bigger.

I have Shapers' Sanctuary and Lifecrafter's Bestiary that i want to try instead of Tezzeret's Gambit!

Ya, so many drawing engines with each one being a different flavor. Kinda tough to optimize as each is a bit situational. I am curious as to what other creatures you add in.

In general, do you feel like the deck is getting more or less competitive over the last few weeks?

I'm honestly not sure. Probably more? but not by a big deal. Need to try more, lately have been playing mostly pauper, so one or two games don't help too much. I do feel mana starved often tho, but i haven't tried the last version without Oran-Rief, the Vastwood

Drestlin - Understandable it is difficult to gauge the improvement of the deck given the small sampling size of games you actually get to play. I get to gather data pretty quick as it only takes usually like 20 mins to play like 2-5 games on MTGO online. So if I am in the mood to play and sit down for an hour, I can actually in quite a few games in one sitting. The hard part is finding any kind of consistency in opponents...you might see Storm then Living Dead then treefolk tribal, then control deck, etc...

The mana situation is understandable, I mean 19 is close to the minimum you could run. I think I mentioned I crunched the probabilities for the number of lands opening hands given the number of lands/size of the deck as well as the subsequent probabilities of drawing lands in the next three draws. This does not have a way to share files but if you are interested, I can email that to you. I have been using it to try to make my decks more consistent based on the average CMC of my deck and the probability of having X lands in my opening hand...I bet increasing it up to 21 would feel much better as that is what I have been running for a while and even with , , and mana it is pretty rare I struggle for mana or getting the right color mana.

Yeah but what do i cut T_T There's already ton of stuff i'd want to put in...

I think maybe with the scry from Lifecrafter's Bestiary it'd be ok to add another couple lands?

Personally if it were me, I would be dropping the 4xArcus Acolyte, 1xBasilisk Collar (only 1 here because I know you like it in the deck otherwise I would drop all of them), and 3xEnter the Unknown. I think if we made a ramping counter deck that Enter the Unknown would be better but I feel like most the time I play it, I just get a +1/+1 counter on a single creature which is not very impressive. I swapped that out for Snakeskin Veil to shield some removal. That gives you 8-10 slots to play around with!

I know you are not running him but Luminarch Aspirant is a workhorse for getting out +1/+1 counters. She is my main way of getting counters out on the field as I usually draw at least one per game and consistently allows me to generate counters, pumping up creatures so I can strategically get the Training ability present on many of the creatures to trigger. Easy to remove yes, but usually at least makes some contribution prior to removal.

Had some games today - felt terrible, i think the deck is losing his focus A LOT.

At this point i basically removed all the white creatures in favour of Portable Hole and 2 Gavony Township - i also DEFINITELY like Lifecrafter's Bestiary as both a passive scry every turn and the now and then draw: i think i need to go back to the origins and concentrate on green creatures more - even with 8 double lands i often find myself without the right mana to cast creatures, the first few turns: especially with training, not having more than the lonely initiate down, because i'm missing the 2 green to cast, is just pain. Might have to find space to put back the Pelt Collector Will have to decide eventually, but the deck felt smoother a few iterations ago, and definitely without the white creatures in (i literally have NEVER been able to train the Savior of Ollenbock ONCE in however many games - i managed to use the initiate ability today more than once for the first time - and he trained once). I feel like training, apart from being slow in general, is also too dangerous with the amount of deathtouch stuff i'm dealing with, and having the creature die to a 1/1 dt or stay a 1/2 forever because that's my main way of pumping him up just doesn't work.

I'll update the deck with the latest revision tomorrow, so you can lmk what you think!

p.s. i have the Luminarch Aspirant, i might try him around eventually!

Drestlin - If nothing else, any feedback is good feedback so you have some direction! But I am not actually surprised to hear that. I mean I think I'll Raise you +1/+1... is floating around $450 via Cardkingdom and yours is floating around $160 and the real only difference is the lands. I have fetch lands, shock lands, filter lands, and pain lands at my disposal that do not come in tapped and all allow me to "force" the mana I need when I need it, which is especially important for the three colors. I think keeping yours more green or white focused with the lands at your disposal is a solid play. Also in your defense, it seems like half my games getting like at least two lands in my opening hand (like a 70% chance with 21 lands in a 60 card deck) is a success as I still fight with the random number generator!

I also hear you with the training ability. Some games it is super awesome and literally crushes my opponent. An example is Hardened Scales + Hopeful Initiate + Luminarch Aspirant out and attacking with those two on turn 3. Savior of Ollenbock is also a love/hate relationship as he has to train to be effective and you are right, it is tough to trigger that at times. Thinking I might swap him out for something that fills a similar roll but is easier to do.

I look forward to seeing the new version of the deck! I have mostly just been playtesting stuff for mine so you have not seen much updates. With my recent addition of 4xEsper Sentinel, I no longer have need of Shapers' Sanctuary as the two are similar so trying out Driven / Despair...I like it for its upside but have not actually drawn it yet.

lhetrick13 updated! will see in the weekend how it works!

Drestlin - Generally, I like the edits! Surprisingly you dropped the average CMC down a bit which I am not sure if that was intentional but that alone will speed things up.

For the lands, out of the 20 lands, you have 16 ways to get and 8 ways to get so you may still feel like it is tough to get when you want it but at least the deck is more of a splash of instead of like 50/50.

I do not recall but did you need graveyard hate with Lion Sash? If not, I would bet Luminarch Aspirant would be a better fit for those slots as you do not have to reconfigure and lose a body on the field to move around the counters.

Lastly, I noticed you changed out Baffling End for Journey to Nowhere. I am guessing most the decks you are playing must not run much artifact or enchantment removal given your removal (Portable Hole and Journey to Nowhere are exactly that. A buddy of mine hits me with Condemn pretty regularly which is pretty powerful if you take out a key creature or just a big hitter as most decks lack any kind of effective searching.

Hope the changes pay off!

You are right regarding Luminarch Aspirant, i could try it instead of the lion - lion can pump himself up to disgusting with just 2-3 mana on the same turn he comes down tho, if i have one or two Hardened Scales or Conclave Mentor. 2 or 3 permanent counters for 1 mana each is basically GG if he stays down.

I think it's a side situation maybe. Also, don't underestimate reconfigure: while attached it isn't a creature so it can keep pumping up the creature it's attached to and survive removals - or at least the first one! Useful in case of a deathtouch defender for example.

ohhh...I had not thought of the potential of Lion Sash...Not likely a card you want in your opening had as you likely will not have the mana to throw at it but a great card in the mid-game when you hand is more depleted and you are limited in options as you can toss it out, and as you said likely use its ability 2-3 times and in the presence of a a single multiplier, that little 1/1 sash becomes a monstrous 5/5 of 7/7...you may have convinced me to run it in my deck! Sounds like Lion Sash will work nicely with the number of creatures you are running with trample or ability to get trample...Why is optimizing a deck so hard, lol!

at this moment it is one of the biggest threats i can put down!

Drestlin - I was scrolling through creatures today killing some time at work and came across Sigardian Paladin. A bit expensive for a 4 CMC but thought I would mention it given its synergy with +1/+1 counters and lifelink. I would have loved this card if it was a bit cheaper and a little less powerful.

I think that's a "win more" card for my deck...at 4, it's too late to start pumping out stuff i think... but might try as proxy!

I still have to test it "for real" but this version seems to be running way smoothly!

Drestlin - I played two hands of it, the first I did not start with a land so and the 2nd actually went pretty well but I did not draw mana for a bit and had a few cards that required it. So I see your pain when you were running more than you currently are.

My offer still stands if you want me to make up your deck in MTGO and play against you there!

lhetrick13 i installed it, what am i supposed to do now? ^^'''

Basic idea is send me a friend request (I have the same username there) as that makes it easier to challenge each other.

From there, I can either tell you how to get the cards you need or can trade you the cards you need to build your deck. Do you have a steam account or discord? It would be much easier to explain via an actual chat feature like what those have.

can you drop me your discord username?

lhetrick13 sorry, this should ping you!

Drestlin - my discord username/tag is lhetrick13#5760. I have not seen anything on MTGO from you so hoping it is going ok so far, lol!

What is your MTGO username?

lhetrick13 i added you both on mtgo and discord

Looking good! Let me know how the next game night goes. I am hoping your friends sit down and make adjustments to counter YOUR deck now. After like 6 weeks or so, finally your deck may reign supreme, lol.