michael921
Oh this looks like it has potential for sure; +1!

Some thoughts, in no particular order ...

• I know he's WAY off-curve, but what are your thoughts on Sorin, Grim Nemesis? Maybe for mainboard, and certainly for sideboard in the grindy matchup?
• Had you looked at Topplegeist in place of Indulgent Aristocrat? I could argue it either way, so am curious on your thoughts. If you like it, I'd consider some Evolving Wilds too ... sure they're slow, but would be worth it I think, for the Delirium effect.
• Had you already looked at Transgress the Mind, Declaration in Stone, Stasis Snare, and Silkwrap? I'm curious on your thoughts there too.
• Always Watching maybe (just because it works even without Odric, and is harder to remove than your creatures with Vigilance)?

I'll be back later ...

Draw well!

Sorin, Grim Nemesis, albiet very powerful, is too off curve for this deck as aggro is designed to top out at CMC 4. If I however make a more midrange version, he will probably make it into the deck.

My issues with Always Watching and Stasis Snare is that they're double white which puts a huge strain on my mana as I'm allready having double black on three, double black on two, and black and white on one. That being said, I'm not sure if that down side is enough to overcome the power level of those cards.

Topplegeist could easily be better than Indulgent Aristocrat, but the lifelink might be more valuable than flying, but I'm going to have to figure out what keywords to prioritize. I'm also not pushing for delirium, so Evolving Wilds is a large downside for slowing the deck down.

Thank you as always for you help on my decks clayperce! I really do appreciate it!

michael921,
OK, so this may not be the best way to figure out what keywords are most valuable, but here's number of times Odric's keywords show up in the top decks of the current meta:

You might try Aven Sunstriker over Arashin Foremost. Gives Double-strike and Flying and cost is the same.

I was actually thinking of cutting the Arashin Foremost, as the double white is awkward with double black being on three and two. That being said, the Aven Sunstriker is better for giving flying and double strike, but I'm worried about not having enough power on the board if Odric is removed.

Should I try and max out on First strike + vigilance + death touch? Or go for more evasion with menace + skulk + flying?

You might try a mix. Something like First Strike + Vigilance + Flying. Or Menace + Skulk + First Strike. Flying seems to go unanswered a lot in my meta. I'm not sure if yours is the same. I try to find what isn't being played that could be a threat to others in my meta.

I agree, thinking that trying to get First Strike + Deathtouch + vigilance will make the most powerful board state, as It ensures that I get massive swings on offense and defense. Is it worth trying to find a source of hexproof for the Seasons past matchup?

With all of the token decks, are menace and skulk kind of mediocre?

But having few Flyers is definitely a major theme in this meta.

I would focus much more on the first strike + deathtouch + flying approach, so Drana, Liberator of Malakir and deathtouch creatures like Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim (an amazing card for a 2 mana cost, but legendary, so only one on the field at a time) and Graveblade Marauder (a 3 drop but a 1/4 with deathtouch!!!). You need to have cards/creatues that don't rely strictly on the combinations to get Odric, Lunarch Marshal out or you won't do as well. Rather, you need to have cards that can function without Odric, but playing Odric pushes all creatures to a whole new level of frightening.

For ideas, check out my similar deck: B/W Token generating machine

I don't know what you think of this but you could play Evolving wilds and have like 2 red. Then you could have some Nahiri's Machinations so every combat if you have Odrich, your creatures can have indestructible. Just a suggestion, I understand the whole point of this deck.

If you do play with red, you could also play with needle spires too, and like you needed help with when it came to the protection of your creatures, Odric's ability would work really well with indestructible.

To my knowledge, one of the bets things to give your stuff hexproof is Sigarda, Heron's Grace

Actually, if you want indestructible, I would also suggest Elusive Tormentor  ^Flip-- look at the flip of the card, both indestructible and hexproof. That would be a nice fit as well. I had that in my deck for a while, but decided to try some other things instead. It's a great card, though! Very functional even if Odric isn't on the battlefield.

bpatric1 and Cherrybomb117, thank you so much for your help! I think the indestructible and hexproof are two of the lesser useful keywords that I could potentially have though. The reason is that Odric only triggers at the beggining of combat, so my creatures don't have hexproof of indestructible during their first main phase, when they can simply just use removal to eliminate them.

Instead of splashing for Red, would it potentially be better to splash for blue so I get access to some simple control magic so that my creatures are immune to their removal spells? Languish Right now really destroys my entire deck, so I need to find a way to deal with that, either pushing the kill barrier down to four, or working around removal.

Tagging people that have helped me before, and thank you to all for your assistance!

Anguished Unmaking would be great in this deck. Three life can be pretty steep early on but with the amount of lifeline you will be pulling I don't think I'd be too big of an issue to get rid of the big threats (like Planeswalkers). I'd put two or more Transgress the Mind in the sideboard too in case they have more creatures than spells you are worried about. Same thing with Always Watching .

Some high level thoughts:

Odric, Lunarch Marshal's ability is only really gives combat-relevant bonuses, so don't bother including a creature just because it has hexproof or indestructible. If the opponent wants to Ultimate Price one of your guys, they'll do it before Odric spreads out the keyword love during combat.

However, certain combinations are still very useful. Deathtouch + first/double strike, for example. Also any form of evasion + lifelink and/or vigilance will put you ahead on the battlefield. So I would focus on those.

Also, Odric + Drana is a bit of a nonbo, as Odric will give first strike to your other creatures, which negates the extra damage that Drana would otherwise push through. I'm not sure Drana even belongs in the same deck as Odric, to be honest. You can already achieve double strike in white via a card that's good on its own (Arashin Foremost), so having first strike is kind of irrelevant. Drana does provide flying, but again there are many ways to get that in white already.

Odric doesn't care if the creatures are tokens or not, so another viable strategy is to create a bunch of evasive tokens (end step Secure the Wastes or an early Dragon Fodder would do the job) and then play creatures with menace, flying, etc. If you get the tokens into play before you play Odric, any keywords you have on the battlefield will apply to the tokens on the same turn you play Odric, which is nice. If you go this route, how aggressive/defensive your deck ends up being will be largely determined by when you create the tokens (e.g. in order from aggressive to defensive: Dragon Fodder, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Secure the Wastes).

Odric's ability doesn't care if the keyword actually exists on the creature. You can give it to the creature with a spell (e.g. Coat with Venom) and, as long as the creature has that ability when Odric's trigger resolves, Odric will spread the ability to your other creatures. So a strategy along the lines of Tokens + Odric + keyword granting combat tricks is also a possibility. Keyword-providing equipment also works.

Gideon, Ally of Zendikar provides tokens for Odric as well as granting indestructible to your team whenever you plus him precombat.

Some specific considerations, not necessarily for your current list, but for various possible Odric-based strategies:

1) Always Watching . Odric wants to go wide and you are in white. If you don't go the token route, this is a possibility with Odric synergy.

2) If you go the token route, consider Skulk as a form of evasion. Attacking with 3-5 1/1s into Sylvan Advocates is not very good if your opponent is at a high life total, but if you have a Farbog Revenant to make your tokens effectively unblockable, you've established a strong clock. Combine this with vigilance or lifelink to win any battlefield-based race. Even something marginally playable like Behind the Scenes might be worth considering in this strategy.

3) Consider Dash creatures for the haste keyword. When you dash a creature it actually has haste while it's on the battlefield, so dashing it before combat will give the rest of your team haste as well. Your opponent won't likely see this move coming. Specific dash creatures worth considering are: Ambuscade Shaman (only in a token-based build), Kolaghan Forerunners, and Reckless Imp.

4) Creature tutors work well with Odric, but the deckbuilding cost to include them may be too much. Traverse the Ulvenwald requires delirium and Dark Petition wants you to hit spell mastery by turn 5.

5) If you go for a Naya build, Arlinn Kord  ^Flip can give your creatures 3 different keywords by herself, as well as churn out tokens and act as removal.

5) If you go for a green creature heavy build, Beastcaller Savant both ramps you into a turn 3 Odric as well as provides a relevant keyword.

6) If you decide to use equipment, Haunted Cloak exists. Probably not too great, but it's there.

7) If you have enough noncreature spells in the deck, Ojutai Exemplars is worth considering for his second ability.

8) If you can get a haste creature into play early on, consider Archangel Avacyn  ^Flip. This curve is pretty much unbeatable: T1: creature (doesn't really matter), T2: creature (again, doesn't really matter), T3: haste creature, T4: Odric, T5: main phase Avacyn. Swing for all the damage with a hasty, indestructible, flying (+ other keywords) team. Try not to giggle hysterically afterwards, as your opponent won't share the feeling.

9) If you want to go for the absolute maximum jank, try the following combo: Odric, Lunarch Marshal + Zada, Hedron Grinder + Silverfur Partisan + Titan's Strength + Expedite. But seriously, don't try it.

RainbowGuts, thank you for the advice! What would you reccomend replacing for the Anguished Unmaking? I agree that it would go well in the deck, but I'm not sure what to take out for it.

Odyssey, first of all, thank you so much for your continued assistance on all of my decks! It really means a lot and thank you for your really clearly sorted insightful comments!

1. While Odric + Drana is a little bit of a nonbo when it comes to Drana's +1/+1 ability, her abilities are relevant. The Flying + first strike is double fold when it comes to the abilities that I'm trying to gain access to, as its part of (First Strike + Deathtouch) and (evasion + lifelink/vigilance). In addition, She's really good in the event that I don't draw Odric.

2. It seems like tokens is what Odric want to have, so should I veer harder in that direction? One issue is that going heavier on tokens makes it harder to get the relevant keywords.

3. What do you think about splashing from my current build? I could go red for: menace, tokens, haste, trample. Green: vigilance, rites, deathtouch, trample, tokens. Blue: skulk, counter magic. Colorless: Thought knot, reality smasher. All have pros, but the biggest con for all of them is making the mana both stronger and weaker.

4. Dash to me doesn't seem that it would be that great in an Odric build. In order for the haste to be relevant, you have to have it on board early, and the dashed creatures return to hand. Thus, you would have to have enough mana to cast two significant creatures in one turn, which my current build wants to blitz the opponent dead. Is this an incorrect strain of thought?

5. My main issues with Gideon and Avacyn at this point are honestly their price tag. The reason that I have some of the cards that already have a price tag in the deck is that I got lucky cracking them in packs. That being said, they're very powerful, and I should consider them.

6. I think Exemplars takes additional overly tight building constraints, as I would then need more non creature spells, but if I go for Dragon Fodder tokens sort of build, it might get better.

7. I tried Haunted Cloak in a previous iteration, but I found it was too slow.

Thank you again for all of your help!

I feel like Relentless Dead is currently the most awkward card in the deck. Should I switch him out for more removal, a different agressive creature, or some mixture of the two? I could use Hangarback Walker, Consul's Lieutenant, Forerunner of Slaughter or Dragon Fodder if I'm going to spash red, Hand of Silumgar, Hanweir Militia Captain  ^Flip, Heir of Falkenrath  ^Flip, or Hidden Dragonslayer as alternate creatures in his place.

I don't think the menace on relentless dead is really neccesary because the meta right now is so weak to fliers, and the rest of these cards are aggressive enough to make the cut. Thoughts on them?

I mentioned dash for two reasons:

1) It is one of two Standard-legal ways I know of to get haste in WB colors (the other is Awaken).

2) If you want this to be an aggressive deck, which is how I read your previous comments, you have to figure out how your deck beats sweepers like Radiant Flames, Tragic Arrogance, and especially Languish. These are cards that Standard control decks already run in the main 60, and which almost every non-control deck can bring in from the sideboard. Presently your deck's gameplan requires you to play as many creatures as fast as you can, but you don't really get a payoff for doing so until turn 4 or later. This means that your deck in its current configuration is hard countered by any sweeper. It will get crushed by control decks unless it addresses this problem. Having haste creatures lets you play around sweepers and shores up a primary weakness of the deck. Dash creatures, in particular, have total immunity to sweepers when dashed.

A token-based spin on the deck is probably most powerful with Secure the Wastes since it will give you additional immunity to sweepers by letting you play at instant speed and making it difficult for your opponent to play around the go-wide strategy of the deck. The difficulty of getting keywords is increased, as you noticed, but realistically you don't need 3-4 double striking, vigilant, hasty, flying, deathtouching creatures to win the game. Any combination of keywords that shifts combat in your favor is enough, and different colors will offer different directions for this kind of high level strategy.

Consider this following sequence in a Naya build:

T1: tapland (3 color deck, be realistic)

T2: Sylvan Advocate. A good card on its own that comes with a useful keyword. Your opponent has to decide whether to develop their own board, remove it, or search for an answer to it (e.g. Read the Bones).

T3: Thopter Engineer. As long as both creatures live, two keywords are provided by this one card.

T4: Odric, Lunarch Marshal. Obviously the ideal turn 4 play in your deck.

T5: Any token producing card. Main phase Secure the Wastes for 4 is fine if you know they can't play mass removal on their next turn. If they killed Sylvan Advocate but nothing else, you have a bunch of flying hasty guys and will probably win any damage race unless they play a sweeper. If they killed Thopter Engineer, you still have a bunch of flying vigilant creatures, which is also fine.

My point is that, if you get to any board state where you have 3-4 creatures and they all have a form of evasion plus a defensive ability (like vigilance or lifelink), you will probably be in control of the game. I would prioritize double strike after evasion + defensive keyword, simply to increase the damage you deal and make blocks tough for your opponent even if they find a way to kill your source of flying/trample/skulk etc.

But you still have to solve the Languish problem. Other aggressive decks flood the board and get damage in quickly, but yours is a synergy deck with a slow payoff, which means you take the risk of a board wipe early in the game but don't get the payoff for that risk until later in the game. Existing creature-based decks, of both aggressive and midrange varieties, all have ways of playing around sweepers (planeswalkers in GW tokens, Collected Company in Bant Company, Always Watching + Thalia's Lieutenant in humans, and Archangel Avacyn  ^Flip in all of them), and you will need to solve this problem as well.

There are ways to make your deck better against sweepers and thereby make its strategy more robust that don't involve the cards I listed above. Maybe you play a playset of Stratus Dancer, or play a bunch of flash creatures with flying (like Rattlechains or Dimensional Infiltrator). Maybe you put some number of Evolutionary Leap in your main deck. But you'll have to find a way to shore up this weakness without diluting the power of the deck's strategy when it curves out.

Odyssey, thank you once again for your detailed, insightful comments! I had noticed how weak my deck is to sweepers, but had not knows how to even remotely go about making my deck more resilient. My immediate change to this deck is swapping Secure the Wastes for Relentless Dead, as the dead were whelming, and the wastes are better for recovery and aggression.

I have brewed up three different decks with the same core as this deck, but with a different splash color in each, and will link them and explain my thoughts behind each.

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I tried to make the deck more resilient through more token generators and more haste creatures. However, I feel like it didn't increase the resilience much or the damage potential for weaker mana.

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This I feel is much stronger over the mardu version. Sylvan Advocate is a strict upgrade over Topan Freeblade, and I also get access to Beastcaller Savant, giving me haste. The resilience also goes up with the main board Evolutionary Leap.

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This is probably the splash color that I feel works the best, but it might be a bit weaker right now than the abzan colors. I get the Stratus Dancer on main to counter board wipes, and more counter magic in the side. Another great addition to Odric is Thunderclap Wyvern, which acts as an actual anthem when Odric is out and many of my creatures have flying naturally in this esper build.

I also haven't really considered going with a splash of black instead of being WB with a splash of something else, which might be stronger.

What are your thoughts on these three? The land base is also temporary and will get tweaked if they become more relavent.

Thank you so much as always!!

I agree that the Mardu version seems the most lackluster. Forerunner of Slaughter, in particular, doesn't do a lot since you already have Thopter Engineer in the deck. If there were more colorless creatures in that deck, it might perhaps be more justified.

The Abzan version seems strong in the abstract, but it can run into inconsistencies if you have 4 Beastcaller Savant but only 22 creatures total. Evolutionary Leap can help here, and you can even tap the Savant for mana, sac it, then use the floating mana to play the creature you search up, which is pretty neat. But my guess would be that a 22 creature deck can't really support 4 Savants, even with 3 Leaps in the main deck.

Constructing a consistent manabase for the Abzan variant will also be difficult. According to Frank Karsten's manabase article, being able to cast Kytheon, Hero of Akros  ^Flip by turn 1, Ruinous Path and Drana, Liberator of Malakir by turn 3, and Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim by turn 2, you will need a manabase with at least 14 white sources that come into play untapped on turn 1, at least 19 black sources, and at least 20 total sources of white and black mana. But you also want at least 13 green sources by turn 2 to cast the multiple green 2-drops in the deck. Accomplishing this without playing 28+ lands or having your lands come into play tapped 80% of the time is probably not possible in the current standard format.

The Esper version's manabase will probably be smoother, as the blue cards are really just a splash color. If you morph Stratus Dancer most of the time, you won't need an untapped blue source until turn 4, which is very achievable in an esper deck right now. Since the manabase is smoother, you can also run 1-2 Westvale Abbey  ^Flips, which tends to win games when it transforms (and also provides keywords if you have creatures left over). Secure + Abbey is a solid backup plan against control decks with lots of removal, especially if they don't have access to counterspells (BW, Mardu, and Jund control variants, primarily). Esper colors typically have some of the best sideboard cards as well.

The Esper version is the least aggressive out of all of them, but I think that's a good thing. You won't generally be able to out-aggro an actual aggro deck with an Odric/Drana synergy deck. But several of the creatures in the Esper version give you the option to hold up mana on your opponent's turn, which is good against aggro decks because you can use it to play removal and good against control decks because you can use it to play around sweepers. I think the Esper version will have the most reliable and powerful late game, especially if you add a Westvale Abbey or two (some color combinations like Jund have no good game 1 answers to a flipped Abbey and it's usually an auto-win if you flip it).

The only lackluster creature I see in the Esper version is Topan Freeblade, but there don't appear to be a lot of good low CMC options in Esper for providing vigilance. Still, you can assemble deathtouch + first strike, flying + lifelink, flying + vigilance, and even indestructible via Kytheon. It may be worthwhile to abandon vigilance as a keyword, as all your other creatures are either good on their own or have other synergies independent of providing an Odric keyword. If you do this, lifelink + flying is what I would focus on, as that is what will win races on the battlefield. If you really need to block, you can try to assemble first strike + deathtouch.

Your 3-drop slot is a bit sparse in this version, but Eldrazi Skyspawner is a good turn 3 play (ramps you into turn 4 Odric even if you don't hit a land drop) and also a decent topdeck late in the game if the board is stalled. Maybe not a 4-of type of card, but potentially useful.

So i really thing that a x4 of Duress is needed in this deck. Really, if Odric can get past the removal most decks have, then he will be able to stay on the board and use his ability.

I like decks like this, but I'm running into problems of heavy, and I mean heavy removal decks...most notably wb control, and red burn--i.e. fiery tempers, anguished unmaking, grasp---and they do it constantly, as such these almost seem unplayable in my meta. I suppose I can duress, but that will only midly work, and assume I draw it as well.

mlssufan01 and eddiehiii, I have a similar strand of thought to you two. First of all, thank you for your suggestions, and I agree that the control match up is by far the most difficult for this deck at the moment. Duress I think may not be the best card here for the match up. I think being more reactive with spells like Negate and Dispel could be stronger as it allows me to choose which effects and spells I counter, while also giving me more ways to deal with planeswalkers and be a general nuisance. Thoughts?

Odyssey, thank you so much for what you said on clayperce's wall. I really do try to build interesting, unique decks that still have a chance against the teir one decks. I don't think you realized how much of a compliment that was to me, but it was, so thank you!

I have made the full change to the esper version, and am really enjoying it in testing as well. The mana base still definitally needs some tweaking though. For a replacement for Topan Freeblade should I maybe consider Hidden Dragonslayer as a source of lifelink? I could also use Hanweir Militia Captain  ^Flip, but I may not be going wide enough.

For the issue of three drops, Eldrazi Skyspawner could be a good fit in, but that I was thinking that I would normally cast Stratus Dancer as morph on three, so I would actually have four more three drops. Hidden Dragonslayer can also be another three drop source If i use him as a replacement as well.

As another option that I could consider is putting in some card draw or planeswalkers. Cards such as Jace, Unraveler of Secrets or Ob Nixilis Reignited, to provide a source of card advantage and additional removal. Straight card draw could be Read the Bones or Painful Truths As I am running a three color deck. Thoughts?