michael921, no problem, glad it was well received =).
For the Duress vs Dispel/Negate question, unless you have a deck that is more of a draw-go style control deck, having a mix of the the three in the sideboard is good. There will be times where you'll want to land an Odric, but only have 4 mana and a Dispel in hand to deal with counterspells. In these cases, having Duress + any CMC3 or less creature is clearly better. Duress also lets you know when you should hold up mana for counterspells, in case you have both. Duress + Negate in hand is almost always better than Duress + Duress or Negate + Negate .
Dispel is the most narrow, so you probably want the least of it in your sideboard. If you have Negates and Duresses as well, you can probably get away with only 1 Dispel unless the control matchup is truly abysmal. Just keep in mind that a lot of removal now is sorcery speed or attached to a permanent (like Ob Nixilis Reignited). So if for example you decide that you want 5 cards in your sideboard specifically for the control matchup, a split of 1 Dispel, 2 Negate, and 2 Duress would seem optimal to me.
I like Hidden Dragonslayer in the deck since, unlike most decks which play morphs, you can represent both Dragonslayer and Stratus Dancer with yours. It'll make life difficult for midrange decks. But you probably don't need 4 Dragonslayers since he's best when morphed and there are only so many large creatures you'll be able to slay in a single game of magic. Against aggro decks he's very lackluster, but if you're playing against a white-based aggro deck that runs Archangel Avacyn Flip, he can at least be used to kill Avacyn in response to her indestructible trigger. 2 Dragonslayers is probably doable.
You could replace the remaining 2 Topan Freeblades with 2 Always Watching . You have enough nontoken creatures to justify it, and it will occasionally help a creature survive that otherwise wouldn't, such as you playing Odric when the opponent has a Radiant Flames or Fiery Impulse in hand with spell mastery turned on. Languish will still be good against you unless you have an unmorphed Stratus Dancer or a Duress/counterspell in hand, but Always Watching takes your many 3 toughness creatures out of Radiant Flames range without requiring you to have any of these cards, and also improves your clock, given all the flyers you have.
June 11, 2016 3:15 p.m.
michael921 says... #3
bpatric1, perhaps you mean Reflector Mage? I agree that it is a very good card, but it lacks real synergy with this deck and is instead more of a "good stuff" card if I fit it in with this deck. All of my other creatures interact favorably with eachother and especially if Odric is on the battlefield, so I think the Reflector Mage, while strong, is lacking the cohesion that I'm trying to get with this deck.
Odyssey, I've updated my sideboard to accomadate for the new array of counter spells and such. Thank you as always for all of your help with this deck! I'm luckily not making this a budget deck so I'll actually be able to implement the Always Watching and Hidden Dragonslayer, as I think that they would be better than the Topan Freeblade.
One issue that I currently see with my deck however, is that it seems weak against the humans deck. The mana can be a bit slow, and I may be lacking effient enough blockers to stop the swarm of humans. How can I fix this besides playing Languish? -2/-2 effects like Rising Miasma don't have enough to take out any of the humans after even one Thalia's Lieutenant, I don't have acess to a 3 damage sweeper like Radiant Flames, and I don't have the card advantage to recover after a Languish of my own. How can I shore up this weekness, or is it even as bat as I've been imagining?
June 20, 2016 9:51 p.m.
Languish is your best bet, but you have to build your deck around accommodating it.
Obviously you don't want to run the card in your main 60 because it has poor synergy with your primary gameplan. But Languish is the best board wipe against aggro decks if you don't have red. Other options like Tragic Arrogance are usually going to be too late.
Basically, whenever you face off against a faster deck, you have to adopt the role of the control deck. You can do this to some degree already since you have the ability to hold up mana for Stratus Dancer flips, Thunderclap Wyvern, or removal, but most of your cards are sorcery speed creatures that don't block well against something like a 3/3 Knight of the White Orchid.
Ultimate Price is fantastic against humans, so you can have a fourth in your board. Grasp of Darkness is also good, but makes your mana a bit worse. Besides Languish in the board, those are really the only attractive options I can think of.
Right now, you have a number of sideboard cards that I think you can prune for more removal. You have 3 Felidar Cub, but his effect is covered by the two Anguished Unmakings in your board. Yes, you'll lose life, but you have lifelink sources and the matches where you really want to kill enchantments are usually not the matches where your life total is under pressure. Cub is very good with Ojutai's Command, but I don't think you can justify that card in your list.
3 Infinite Obliterations is also a lot. This is a card that's only really good against ramp (control decks run planeswalkers and noncreature win conditions), and they'll see it coming in games 2 and 3 and diversify their threats. If you want to hedge against ramp, Transgress the Mind is better and also has utility against other matchups like Bant Company that Infinite Obliteration is very bad against. Even against ramp, you want to disrupt them for cheap while applying pressure. Transgress lets you skip your turn 2 for their best turn 3+ threat. Infinite Obliteration forces you to skip your turn 3 for a threat(s) they may never have drawn anyway.
I'm not sure you need 2 Virulent Plagues either. It's bad in multiples and you have Stratus Dancer to guard against something like a large Secure the Wastes (also Dispel and Negate out of the board). Plague is good against GW tokens, but their planeswalkers and Avacyn are the real threats, and they can still beat you with those even if you have a Plague on board.
I think the following cards can come out:
1 Virulent Plague
1-2 Infinite Obliteration
3 Felidar Cub
This gives you 5-6 slots for anti-aggro. Something like this could be added to the board then:
3 Languish (you don't want to rely on this too much, as you're still a creature deck that ultimately wants to go somewhat wide).
1 Ultimate Price
1-2 Grasp of Darkness
You can change around the numbers a bit if you decide that you want to retain a bit more discard against ramp decks (and mono blue prison, if you have anyone who plays that in your area).
Also remember that it's fine to play Hidden Dragonslayer as a 2/1 against aggro decks. He gains you two life and fogs a bigger creature (unless it has first strike and he doesn't), or forces them to kill it. Either way, it acts as a speedbump and that's what you want.
Stratus Dancer is really, really bad against the humans decks. You should take all four out for postboard games.
If you have to recover after wiping both your board and your opponent's, you should be slightly favored if you're both topdecking. The exception is if you're under 5 life (which can definitely happen by that point) and they have an Always Watching out. That'll make chump blocking much less attractive. But their topdecks are worse than yours (even though yours aren't as stellar as some decks like GB-based decks). If you are going to die next turn to your opponent's best card (that they may or may not have in hand), then Languish and count on your average individual card quality off the top of your deck being a little higher than your opponent's.
June 21, 2016 2:25 a.m.
michael921 says... #6
Instead of going for Languish, maybe an alternative plan could be having a fourth Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim and having a large number of Dead Weights also be viable? I was reading this article which talked about some of the best ways to fend off humans. Ayli seems like it would serve well as a blocker, similar to that of Sylvan Advocate in the early game which will allow me to reach the mid game.
In addition, the 2 Virulent Plagues were more for consistancy rather than having multiples at the same time, but they're also just a non-bo with my own Secure the Wastes. Maybe I should just cut it altogether...
Thoughts on these?
June 23, 2016 12:43 p.m.
michael921 says... #7
I'm going to start by discussing the cards that have come out so far and what they mean, even though we're only one day into the spoiler season, its good to consider this.
First of all, probably the most impactful card is the new Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Both playable in this deck, and most likely a format defining card. I am concerned about her ability, especially with how many non basic lands that I have in this deck. Could it be worth cutting this deck back down to only two colors to get hosed by the ability less? In addition, the Thalia works better with Odric (Flavor win!), but Drana works better on her own with the rest of the creatures.
Next, both Gisela, the broken Blade, and Thalia's Lancers need to be considered for this deck. Gisela gives three significant keywords for only 4 mana, and will probably also be pretty format defining. She does only have 3 toughness, which does make it a bit clunky against a large amount of removal, but she is very powerful and synergizes with this deck. The Lancers give me another source of first strike and can tutor for a large number of creatures in the deck, including Drana, Liberator of Malakir, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Odric, Lunarch Marshal, Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim, and Kytheon, Hero of Akros Flip. If this card made it into the deck I could include other legendary creatures as a one-of to make this a far more tool-box style deck.
For sideboarding against some of the decks that will probably survive, Instead of going for Languish against the humans deck, maybe an alternative plan could be having a fourth Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim and having a large number of Dead Weights also be viable? I was reading this article which talked about some of the best ways to fend off humans. Ayli seems like it would serve well as a blocker, similar to that of Sylvan Advocate in the early game which will allow me to reach the mid game, where my deck can take over.
Finally, a potential synergy outside of the Odric, Lunarch Marshal strategy could be using the new Hanweir Garrison with Drana, Liberator of Malakir in particlar for a RB tokens hyper agressive build. If you attack with the Garrison and Drana, that's 9 points of damage from just them when you consider the +1/+1 counters from her. I think more cards along these lines will have to be spoiled for this deck to be a thing, but there might be something there.
A different Odric deck to build could be GW with the Gnarlwood Dryad being spoiled, as a 1/1 deathtouch for 1. This would allow me to curve Gnarlwood Drayad into Sylvan Advocate into Thalia, Heretical Cathar into Odric, Lunarch Marshal, which might just be the most powerful form of this deck.
Anyone have thoughts on this? In particular, what are your thoughts on the matter Odyssey?
June 27, 2016 1:41 p.m.
It's too early to even speculate on what changes you will need to make post rotation. Spoiler season always shows off the rares and mythics first, with some of the flashier uncommons also being spoiled. But formats are also defined by a small number of uncommons and even commons, and those aren't always revealed until the full spoiler is up. Commons like Lightning Strike, Elvish Mystic, Nantuko Husk, Thraben Inspector, and Gryff's Boon can define formats or enable tier 1 decks, but those aren't always shown off until the last day of spoilers.
The new Gisela, for example, will be pretty lackluster if they reprint Lightning Strike or something similar (but they probably won't). Gnarlwood Dryad is also going to be pretty anemic as a 1/1 deathtouch if delirium is still clunky and not really worth it, as is the case currently. 1/1s for 1 don't often get played unless they produce mana or quickly grow (think of cards like Wild Nacatl reliably being a 3/3 on turn 2). If a delirium deck exists that can reliably turn Gnarlwood Dryad into a 3/3 quickly while developing its own board state (e.g. maybe something like Satyr Wayfinder gets printed), then maybe it'll be good. Otherwise probably not.
There's just too much that you can't know right now.
June 27, 2016 5:08 p.m.
michael921 says... #9
Now that the entire spoiler is out, the cards that seem to benefit this deck the most are very similar to the ones I saw near the beginning of the spoilers. Here's a list of the potetial cards that I see and my current thoughts. I would love for input on these and discussion on what cards to replace!
- Collective Effort for the +1/+1 counter mode seems like it could be useful, In addition to having utility against larger creatures, and Demonic Pact.
- Gisela, the Broken Blade is obviously powerful enough to be a standard staple, along with having a large number of keywords which is relevant for Odric. That being said, Radiant Flames, Fiery Temper, Fiery Impulse, Lightning Axe, Languish and the new Incindiary Flow all slay her, even ignoring all of the "exile target creature" and "destroy target creature" spells that are in white and black.
- Thalia's Lancers is a little bit expensive for the deck, but the ability to tutor for any of 5 different creatures at the moment is very powerful and should not be ignored. The biggest drawback for this card is it's 5 mana CMC.
- Thalia, Heretic Cathar has a very powerful ability, but is too fragile, with every piece of removal in the world being able to tempo out whoever plays this card with just one or two mana compared to the three it takes for thalia.
- Selfless Spirit is a two mana two powered flyer, but has the added ability to protect my team from combat, damage based sweepers, and spot removal spells. That being said, the one toughness makes it vulnerable to most forms of removal, so you may be forced to pop him without getting value off of the ability.
- Turn Aside and Unsubstantiate could be decent as counterspells / removals for my deck. The Unsubstantiate is like half of a remand, and the Turn Aside counters a lot of spot removal. However, the fact that Turn Aside doesn't hit sweepers makes it a lot weaker as a card.
- Fog Walker or Vampire Cutthroat could be decent for providing skulk and a another relevent effect. This is mainly if I wanted to make a more token heavy deck, where the skulk would be more relevant. The fog walker is better in the current deck, I believe, as it can tap down a blocker for me to crash in.
- Whispers of Emrakul could be very powerful if I was pushing for delirium, as it becomes an easier to cast Hymn to Tourach. That being said, I'm not pushing hard enough for delirium for this card to be very strong.
- Campaign of Vengeance provides a very powerful effect for pushing through guarenteed life drain and speeds up my clock. The five mana does make it vulnerable in a format with Dromoka's Command however, and is not very good without a large number of creatures.
- Murder is a very solid removal spell, but I feel like the prominence of planeswalkers right now makes this card much worse.
- Chittering Host could be a decent combo to push for, as it provides two relevant keywords and a massive benefit to my entire team. Unfortunately, the scavengers cost 5 mana, but can get the rats or most of my other creatures back from the grave if they get killed.
If I were to change my spash color, there are a couple cards that might affect what that splash color is. The deck would probably become GW splashing black for the additional removal, which I think I would rather run a delirium deck if I was in those colors.
Card Images That I referenced Show
If I missed any cards, or overlooked any aspects of a card that I should reconsider, please let me know!
July 8, 2016 12:35 p.m.
michael921,
Wow this is a great-looking deck! And yeah, figuring out what to pull is gonna be tough. I'm afraid I've got nothing for you :-(
July 8, 2016 11:04 p.m.
michael921 says... #12
clayperce, thank you for trying to help! I'm at the same point as you with just having no idea what cards to replace from this deck. That being said, I don't think that the Lone Rider Flip is worth it. While he provides two keywords on his front side, and three on his back, the weakness of the card by itself is a massive drawback. The card is essentially only playable if it's built around, which in this deck means only if Odric is on the battlefield. In addition, being a 1/1 means he dies to virually everything.
TL:DR; Lone Rider Flip is dependant on having odric, and is too fragile on his front side.
Odyssey, what do you think about this deck now that the entire spoiler is out?
July 13, 2016 2:16 p.m.
I think Spell Queller straight up replaces Stratus Dancer and more or less solves the Languish problem by itself. That card is good in a lot of decks. Even without Odric on the battlefield, Spell Queller temporarily exiling a spell, followed by Thunderclap Wyvern on your turn establishes a decently fast clock in the air. You get to swing for 3 in the air, followed by 5 the next turn if they don't kill either creature. You probably won't flash in the Wyvern most of the time for the extra damage, but if you find yourself in a race, that sequence of plays will probably let you win it.
Lone Rider Flip is an interesting option that I agree isn't good enough even with Odric. However, if you had 2-3 Ojutai's Commands or Blessed Alliances in the deck, that might be a different story. But by then your 4-drop slot would be pretty crowded.
Thalia's Lancers is probably playable as a singleton here, but when you tutor for a creature you have to consider what situations it's going to get you out of. The only one I can think of is tutoring for Odric when you have a flyer and a source of lifelink, with possibly another creature or two. Basically if you are in a board stall with your opponent, or if your opponent has a large ground creature that you can't attack past. I'm not sure adding a singleton Lancers would add much since you can already get first strike from Drana. It's possible that it would just be better to add a source of card draw like Painful Truths or Read the Bones if you find yourself in this situation often. I think Lancers is much better in EDH, and not very great in pretty much every other format.
Turn Aside and Unsubstantiate are both much better in the sideboard here. Assuming you don't maindeck either of them, most of the time you would rather bring in Dispel, Negate, or even Horribly Awry over Turn Aside. This is partially because a lot of targeted effects these days are attached to permanents instead of spells (see Stasis Snare, pretty much any creature in Bant Company, Ob Nixilis Reignited, and so on). Another thing to consider in the short term is that, whenever a new set comes out people rarely play decks stuffed with removal. Most people want to play with the new threats and see which ones are good, but since nobody knows what the meta looks like yet it's hard to figure out what removal is even worth playing. So cards that only protect your existing creatures are probably going to be pretty bad right after EMN comes out.
I think Gisela, the Broken Blade can replace Thunderclap Wyvern. You need 3 other creatures with flying for Wyvern to give you more flying power than Gisela does. I don't think you need to go all in on her and Bruna though. Your 4-drop slot is a little crowded and you want to drop creatures early if possible, so 2-3 should be fine, considering the legendary status.
July 13, 2016 6:49 p.m.
michael921 says... #14
Odyssey, Im glad that our thoughts on many of the cards were very similar. One that I want to discuss a little more is the Thunderclap Wyvern vs Gisela, the Broken Blade.
Gisela hits a lot harder, and is another source of important keywords for the deck. That being said, the Wyvern has flash, and gives an additional point of toughness. That toughness makes most of the damage spells in standard far less relavent against most of my deck, and the flash allows me to hold up mana for spells like Secure the Wastes and Spell Queller. In addition, the Wyvern costs a LOT less money than Gisela.
Speaking of Secure the Wastes, how much worse do you think that spell is in the face of Spell Queller, and is that enough to move some copies out of the main board?
Finally, do I need to emphasize token makers, lifelink, and vigilance more with Tamiyo, Field Researcher being in standard? Her -2 ability could cripple my deck in the event that I didn't draw a lifelinker or Odric. The vigilance means that the -2 hurts can't punish me for leaving creatures to block, lifelink means that I'd still be largely ahead in life, and tokens mean that I can largely ignore the effect. Thoughts?
July 19, 2016 7:42 p.m.
Wyvern and Gisela have the same toughness. I'm not sure what the additional point of toughness is that you're referring to, unless you mean that he gives your other creatures extra toughness when you have Odric out.
Wyvern pushes you in a more token-y direction, whereas Gisela is a creature that you can play and just support with instant speed spells if she lives. Wyvern wants you to commit more to the synergy approach that Odric establishes, whereas Gisela is more of a good midrange creature on her own, and an infinitely better topdeck. Against removal heavy decks, Gisela will be better most of the time. The flash on Wyvern isn't that relevant if they are holding open mana for removal, and going wide with him leaves you vulnerable to sweepers. Whereas sometimes when you play Gisela, the only removal your opponent will have left will be a sweeper and they will have to use it as a 1-for-1 sorcery speed removal spell, simply because she takes over the game on an empty board.
That said, she is currently very expensive. Wyvern is a fine substitute until her price drops (and it will--Gisela is not modern or legacy playable, so her demand is entirely driven by standard and EDH).
Secure the Wastes is still a fine card. Spell Queller can't hit it if you cast it for X=5 or higher, which is what you will likely do if you have only 1-2 copies in your deck and you draw it later in the game. The only time you'll cast it early is against an aggro deck where the chump blockers can trade with an X/1 or X/2 creature, and those are decks that won't be holding open mana for Spell Queller. 3 Secure is probably one too many in this deck regardless of how Spell Queller warps the format.
Tamiyo is a big unknown. The Bant decks may decide not to play her at all, or only in the sideboard, or only 1-2 copies. CoCo is still their most powerful card for the moment, and they can only support so many 4-drop non-CoCo hits. Tamiyo's role in any deck that plays her, however, will be to dominate the combat step. Your deck plays a combat-centric gameplan, so it is vulnerable to her. But she can only use her abilities at sorcery speed, so your flash options are still good against her, especially flyers. A 1-of Anguished Unmaking in the main may be a good idea for dealing with Tamiyo and other planeswalkers, but it'll be risky at the beginning of the new format since decks will be more aggressive than usual.
July 20, 2016 11:07 a.m.
michael921 says... #16
After the Pro tour, I realize that my sideboard needs some updates. Graveyard decks are in full force, with delirium and emerge being the two decks that mine can't deal with much besides first strike + deathtouch. Aggro decks seem to be on the decline, and GW tokens seems to have disappeared altogether. In addition, having Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim makes my deck extremely weak against Emrakul. Here are the two cards that I am considering for the sideboard in light of this. I started by taking out a Virulent Plague as the token match up is less relavent, and one Dead Weight as it doens't do much against the massive rampy decks, and there hasn't been too much aggro in the format.
Learn from the Past is kind of awkward as a 4 CMC spell, but the ability to shuffle away Kozilek's Return, turn off delirium, and make Emrakul cast sometimes 6 more mana seems very powerful and potentially a decent counter to those decks.
Summary Dismissal similarly is worse against delirium, but strong against emerge decks as well. Being able to counter an Elder Deep-Fiend, Kozilek's Return, the tapping trigger, as well as an activated ability from the sacrified creature is too powerful to ignore.
Other considerations and updates include me adding a Gisela, the Broken Blade after I cracked her and an Emrakul in the same pack. I took out a Secure the wastes to fit her in, as the additional keywords helped fit the over arching theme of this deck. I may also try to find space for another Always Watching as the buff to both power and toughness in testing has always been relavent and the vigilance that is also granted is immensly powerful. Thoughts on this Odyssey?
In addition, Argeaux, as you normally play control decks, do you have any insight or advice on this deck?
August 9, 2016 7:12 p.m. Edited.
Declaration in Stone is becoming more important to play as it can get rid of Emrakul, or wipe away one of Lili's Zombie hoards. I would try to find two more.
Speaking of Lili, don't be too fast to take out Virulent Plague as it can protect you from all those Zombies.
August 9, 2016 7:38 p.m.
If you want this to be a Control deck you should aim to only have about six Creatures in it. A bit more if you use Creatures that offer Control.
The way that Control decks play is that they decide what will happen in the game until they are ready to execute their winning plan, usually with a few powerful Creatures in the late game.
Creatures like Spell Queller and Reflector Mage work in a Control deck, because they let you determine some of what happens to your Opponent's moves.
Kytheon, Hero of Akros Flip doesn't, and cards like that weaken this deck's Control.
This deck is way too Creature heavy if you want it to be Control.
I would also advise you to try to stick with two colours. Tri colour decks don't seem to be that strong at the moment.
August 10, 2016 11:32 p.m. Edited.
There isn't any really playable graveyard hate at the moment, which is quite unfortunate. The non-creature delirium cards could have been pushed much more if there were (the delirium creatures can be policed by removal and Kalitas). Day's Undoing and Learn from the Past are really the only two options I know of.
But you don't necessarily need graveyard hate to beat a delirium deck. Especially the Temur "turbo Emrakul" deck that Turtenwald played. That deck has 12 cards specifically for enabling delirium, so you won't be able to stop their plan with 1-2 sideboard bullets. At most you'll delay them or force them to cast Elder Deep-Fiend before they would prefer too (to trigger Kozilek's return in the graveyard).
If you are having trouble with emerge creatures, Emrakul, and/or Ishkanah, Grafwidow, then play more Transgress the Mind in your sideboard. Four if necessary, as it's good against control as well (hits all board wipes, most of their card advantage generators, and finishers). You can trim Duress and Negate if you go up to 3-4 Transgress the Mind in the sideboard, as those are doing the same thing, but Negate and Duress are both bad against the emerging (heh) Emrakul decks.
Like Argeaux said, Declaration in Stone is very good right now, so you can up the count of that as well. Combined with more Transgress the Mind in the sideboard, you can play as more of a tapout deck, which is what you'd ideally do anyway (since you'd be playing one or more creatures each turn).
But you need to do some testing and figure out what parts of the new delirium and emerge decks are specifically giving you trouble. If it's their ability to stabilize with a large threat, then stripping that threat from their hand is the best option. Counterspells won't prevent the cast triggers (unless it's Summary Dismissal, which is probably justifiable as a 1-of in the sideboard).
August 11, 2016 5:01 p.m.
michael921 says... #20
Argeaux, thank you for your input and advice! I'll try and get my hands on some more Declaration in Stones! I do think that you misunderstood me a little though. Knowing how strong of a control player you are, I was hoping for your input on the control matchup, if I'm favored, unfavored, and how my deck can be sideboarded against it.
In addition, my deck has the hintings of control between the Spell Quellers and the counter magic in the sideboard. I think that my spread of counters and hand attack is sufficient, but I was wanting your input from a mostly control player.
Odyssey, thank you as always for your input! The biggest issues I encountered in testing against emerge and delirium decks are Emrakul Vs Ayli, Kozilek's Return on the flashback, and Ishkanah, Grafwidow. Most of the creatures in my deck have 3 toughness, so I can't attack into a grafwidow unless I have an Always Watching or Thunderclap Wyvern, and even then, I'm only bouncing off the widow.
I will be putting in 2 Transgress the Mind into the sideboard for -1 Negate and -1 Duress. I need to double check, but I believe I only currently have two, so that will be the change for now. If I have 3, what would be your next cut?
I'm going to a Sunday standard event tomorrow, so I'll keep detailed notes on the matches and post an update!
Finally, Odyssey, If you're wanting some janky graveyard hate, play Hedonist's Trove!
August 13, 2016 6:48 p.m.
I would trim either the 4th Ayli, or Learn from the Past.
If you spend your turn 4 getting rid of their graveyard, they'll still be able to repopulate it with other self mill effects that they have in hand or draw, so you're only really slowing them down. But you're also slowing yourself down since 4 mana is a lot for a one time GY shuffle effect. They'll still be able to emerge Elder Deep Fiends and such on the next turn, so you're only really preventing spider tokens and Emrakul from being a problem for a few turns. Strategically, the turbo delirium decks are more like ramp decks than anything else, so they run relatively few threats, but those threats are very powerful. The rest of their deck is an engine that is designed to get them to the point where they can cast those threats. If you attack the part of their deck that they have less of (the payoff cards) then you'll probably have more success than undoing their turn 2 and 3 setup plays on your turn 4.
The other GB decks are more midrange oriented (the ones that run cards like Grim Flayer and Mindwrack Demon) so getting rid of their graveyard might be more worthwhile, since they won't be able to turn delirium on as fast once you've turned it off (as they rely on hitting it naturally with removal, discard, and creature combat). It just depends on which type of delirium deck is giving you more trouble.
Ayli is fine, especially against aggro & midrange. But she's not an especially powerful sideboard card and the legendary status can sometimes cause problems if you have all 4.
August 15, 2016 5:41 p.m.
have you thought about using Insidious Mist with the odric? with the boost from drana it could be a pretty nasty combo, you would no longer have to pay to flip it.
BioProfDude says... #1
If you're including the blue, then certainly consider Stormchaser Mage. It is one of the most annoying cards. It's mana cheap () and prevents any creature with the same name from being cast during the next turn. I saw it performing well at the local FNM last night, and a friend runs a deck based on that theme. It worked particularly well in white weenie decks.
Admittedly, though, it does little for the synergy with Odric, Lunarch Marshal (i.e., it doesn't bring an ability to the table for Odric to amplify), but it can certainly benefit from Odric. It can also clear blockers!
Just a thought.
June 11, 2016 1:09 p.m.