Hi there. I love Ghave, as it's been one of my favorite combo decks for the last 3 years. I've written up quite a bit about what my particular deck can do, combo-wise, so I'm not going to make an exacerbatingly long post here about individual combos. If you want to check out the list, they're on my deck, here: Ghave: Baby Makin' and Alimony. With that out of the way, I've got a lot of suggestions, many of which stem from experience from playing the deck for so long.

Diabolic Revelation should become Eldritch Evolution. Cheaper, insane value as it finds whatever you need at the time, be it sac outlets, or whatever.

Increasing Ambition should be Vampiric Tutor. 1 mana is a far cry from 5, and even if it has flashback, getting one card for 1 mana is huge.

Reveillark and Karmic Guide or Saffi Eriksdotter contribute so much to this deck's shenanigans that I think room should be made for at least 2 of the three. They help you recover from board wipes and removal, and you have a tremendous amount of cards that are purely win-more that you could do without.

For example, Black Market is win-more. If you have sacrificed enough things that you gain reasonable amounts of mana from this 5 drop enchantment, then you should be well on your way to winning already. Cryptolith Rite costs less to cast, still benefits from you having a few creatures, and you don't have to sac them after it comes into play. Oftentimes, Rite will make up the mana you spent on it the turn you cast it. Can't say the same for Market, even if it can make more mana, it takes too long to do so.

Squirrel Nest is win-more. If you have Ghave and Earthcraft, you can add literally any counter source and go infinite, which makes Nest less useful than, say, Champion of Lambholt. Whom, you should be running. She's pretty incredible- a counter source for multiple infinite combos and she helps your army be unblockable when you have to play fairly.

Wurmcoil Engine doesn't need to be here. Zulaport Cutthroat would help you significantly more and would be a stronger win condition in Commander.

Perilous Forays- truly win-more. It's already 5 mana, but instead of giving immediate bonuses like Mirari's Wake, you have to sac creatures to get the extra mana. While it can function as a sac outlet if you have Earthcraft or Cryptolith Rite, Evolutionary Leap would be a much better use of the slot as a sac outlet. Forays comes down too late to give significant boon.

I like Smothering Abomination a good deal more than Deathreap Ritual. Considering the number of sacrifice combos to which you have access, Abomination can take empty-result loops with no net gain and let you draw your library, then kill with Blood Artist or Zulaport Cutthroat. I guess it's pretty inconsequential, overall, but just a thought.

Vitaspore Thallid is just kind of useless. I'd drop it. Reveillark could take this spot, easily.

Melira, Sylvok Outcast isn't actually necessary. You can reset Puppeteer Clique with Ghave or Cathars' Crusade or Bloodspore Thrinax or Sigil Captain, since +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters counteract one another. Melira is extremely narrow in that she only works with 2 other cards in the deck (Clique and Cauldron), and could easily be Karmic Guide.

Cauldron + Geralf's Messenger + a Sac outlet does not work. I just want to make that clear. Messenger re-enters the battlefield without persist. neither does the Eternal Witness one. The official ruling on Cauldron of Souls reads: "6/7/2013: When a permanent with persist returns to the battlefield, its a new object with no memory of or connection to its previous existence." This means the returned permanent will not have Persist.

Cauldron of Souls, while cute, doesn't enable infinites because, as aforementioned, it would need untapped in order to give the returned permanents Persist again. Karmic Guide or Saffi Eriksdotter, on the other hand, enable an infinite combo where Cauldron and Melira could only do a loop one single time. Again, I suggest Saffi, Lark, and Guide, lol.

Anyway, hope this helps. Have a good one.

First of all, I want to thank you for taking a look at my deck and giving me feedback. You've given me a lot of very helpful suggestions. This deck used to be a fungus tribal deck which I dismantled and rebuilt into a combo deck. Some of the cards remain from it's previous life.

I like Diabolic Revelation because with an infinite mana combo, I essentially tutor my whole deck which I then play and give everything haste with Vitaspore Thallid to swing for infinite damage. Though I suppose now with all the other combos it's more of a gimmick than a useful combo. I just laugh at the thought of playing my entire deck. Eldritch Evolution looks like it could be a lifesaver. In terms of usefulness, I think the switch is worth it.

I prefer Increasing Ambition for it's flashback, but you have a point about Vampiric Tutor's one mana for one card benefit might come in handy. Definitely considered.

I didn't know about Cryptolith Rite. SO much more useful than Black Market especially early game.

I have Champion of Lambholt in two other decks that use counters and tokens. She's one of my favorites, so I don't know why I haven't included her yet. Guess I was focusing too hard on combos.

Why would you suggest Zulaport Cutthroat over Wurmcoil Engine? It has the same effect as Blood Artist which I have (and granted having two of the same effect would be welcomed as it would increase my chances of pulling off a combo with them), and it can't combo with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed since it's a human. Wurmcoil Engine however, can.

With other ways to ramp mana, I definitely like Evolutionary Leap over Perilous Forays which was mostly there as another sac outlet. The former will be a more useful one at any rate.

I want to thank you for pointing out the ruling on Cauldron of Souls because I didn't realize it worked that way. That's disappointing and also makes Melira, Sylvok Outcast lackluster since she was just there for Eternal Witness. I will definitely replace that with the Reveillark + Karmic Guide combo. I have that in my Oloro deck and love it, so feels fitting to add it in here. I might be able to make room for Saffi Eriksdotter as well.

What is your opinion on the cards in my Maybeboard? I've heavily considered adding Cream of the Crop. The more draw power and deck filters I can get, the better off I'll be.

Thank you again for reviewing my deck!

With Reveillark, Karmic Guide, and Saffi in the deck giving you another outlet to abuse Wurmcoil, it's probably fine to keep it. I'd still recommend finding room for Cutthroat, however, as it is absurdly good. Producing 40 creatures in any fashion while controlling Cutthroat and a sac outlet is a kill on all players since he deals the life loss to all opponents, not just one player. Cutthroat is just way more useful in practically every respect and doubles your chances of drawing into a valuable Blood Artist effect. Cutthroat isn't commonly the one being sacrificed in any of the combos I would mention with him (so he not being able to be brought back by Mikaeus is moot). Your Young Wolf, Butcher Ghoul, etc., is commonly what's being sacrificed repeatedly while Ghave generates a token off of them, and Cutthroat drains your opponent's life totals so you don't need to touch combat and fight through Fog, Crawlspace, Ghostly Prison, Dueling Grounds, and the like.

Which, I also just now noticed that you're only running Mikaeus and no actual Undying creatures. They're super useful because themselves + Earthcraft + Ghave = infinite tokens. Toss in Blood Artist or Cutthroat, and you win on the spot without even touching combat. You don't even need a mana-less sac outlet, Ghave and Earthcraft + an Undying creature is all you need. You'll also notice that I love Geralf's Messenger, who goes infinite with either Altar, Ghave, and himself to kill all opponents without the need for combat, as well.

Cutthroat is probably a little better with the Undying creatures as Artist/Cutthroat is how I end the vast majority of my games- but the Undying creatures are already so good that I don't see why you wouldn't run at least one or two of them.

If I had to make suggestions- and this is just spit-balling- I would say you could probably drop Nim Deathmantle (I know it enables a combo with Wurmcoil, but it's a 4 card combo and Deathmantle's usefulness is lowered with 3 other recursion tools in the deck, I would think. I took out Deathmantle a couple years ago for Saffi and basically never looked back). That would let you slot in either Cutthroat, Bloodspore, or Vampiric Tutor.

If another slot is needed, I guess I could ask if Glare of Subdual is really that important. Preventing attacks has never been something I've tried to do (I usually have the most creatures at the table so only Voltron decks are scary, but oftentimes they have pro-green anyway so Glare wouldn't help in that circumstance at all). I don't know what you run into, but Glare seems kind of weak, so maybe it could become another of your maybeboard cards or Young Wolf/Geralf's Messenger or something.

I'm not entirely sold on Cream of the Crop because if you have anything that boosts token's power then you're already in a winning position. A token entering the battlefield would let you look at your top card and put it back. You can't choose to bottom the card, unfortunately, since it reads, "Put one of those cards on top and the rest on bottom." However, if you do control Bloodspore Thrinax/Eldrazi Monument/Cathars' Crusade, you're probably ready to kill and don't need the filtering. I could easily recommend Fecundity since it is probably the best mana-less draw you have access to at the moment. Also, there's Mentor of the Meek which is kind of similar to Psychotrope Thallid, except he enables infinites with mana-less sac outlets + Earthcraft + Undying/Persist creatures for draw, too. So, if you're thinking hard about Crop, maybe try Fecundity or Mentor of the Meek since Crop doesn't do anything for the copious tokens you generate (it would be such a better card if you could scry 1 off of each token that enters, but alas...).

Anyway, this went on for much longer than I intended (I have an extreme habit of being very verbose) so I'll end this here. Sorry for another long post!

Scratch Geralf's Messenger, don't know how I missed it in the list already. I still stand by the inclusion of Young Wolf, though, since it's just another easy route to infinite tokens, lol.

Nim Deathmantle is useful with both Wurmcoil Engine and Avenger of Zendikar when I have Ashnod's Altar. Gives me infinite mana and tokens. However, I suppose that outside of those combos, they don't really have much use interacting with the rest of the deck. I do see what you're saying, and Young Wolf is looking more appealing the more I think about it.

I guess I wouldn't really need to tap my opponents' creatures if I can just make them sacrifice them, huh? I made an aggro token deck with Trostani a while back, and I guess I just carried a lot of the enchantments I like over to this deck. In that case, Glare of Subdual could probably go on the chopping block.

The only thing I don't like about Fecundity is that it allows opponents to draw as well. Kind of a double-edged sword there even if it would be easy to abuse for me. Mentor of the Meek is rather appealing, though.

Hey, I prefer longer analytical posts to a single sentence that doesn't help me much. Make your post as long as you like! You've given me a lot of great suggestions.

Maybe not Primal Vigor, but definitely Parallel Lives and Anointed Procession because doubling tokens makes a Ghave deck

Edit:Corpsejack Menace?

Omgawall

Those are all good suggestions for a Ghave deck that isn't so combo based. In fact they were all part of this list back when I just wanted to make insanely large numbers of tokens and counters then start swinging. However for them to have a spot in the deck now, they would have to either replace a combo piece and do it better or provide some more needed control. I don't see these doing either. Since the deck is centered around getting out combo pieces, I don't have as much use for cards that just make more tokens for the sake of it.

Primal Vigor is actually better than Parallel Lives and White Parallel Lives because it doubles both counters and tokens. But why try and get both Corpsejack Menace and Parallel Lives on the field when I can get the same value from one card? It would basically be a third Doubling Season since Illusionist's Bracers is my second. That one would only go in to increase the resiliency of Doubling Season combos if I could sacrifice another combo substitute elsewhere.

Only hesitant about Primal Vigor due to it also affecting your opponent's field. If that's not an issue, I'd say go for it. But honestly, I'm suggesting the other two enchantments with Earthcraft in mind as they go "infinite" with Ghave. But I guess if you wanted a lot of Saprolings, you'd be running a Mycoloth. Other than that they'd be a little redundant with Doubling Season, but redundancy is consistency.

What about +1/+1 counters? There seems to be a better focus on them in this deck. Have you taken a look at Sigil Captain or Retribution of the Ancients?

Here’s a source of infinite enchantment removal to mull over: Kithkin Spellduster

Omgawall

Redundancy is what this deck is built on, so it wouldn't be a problem to add in additional ways to get the same combos. However I already have so many that can combo with Earthcraft that also function as combos elsewhere that I have a hard time justifying the token doublers.

Cathars' Crusade, Bloodspore Thrinax, Ivy Lane Denizen, and Juniper Order Ranger also combo with Earthcraft for infinite tokens, but they also combo with persist creatures while the token doublers don't.

Sigil Captain is one I like and used to be in the list at some point. I took him out to help with resiliency of other combos since I already had 4 or 5 others that did his job. I'd put him back in if I could rationalize a reason he would be better than something else I'm running.

Retribution of the Ancients is interesting. It would be good with infinite counters as long as I had the mana, but Deathspore Thallid seems to do that job better. Infinite saprolings to sacrifice to him boardwipes my opponents and gets around indestructible. Retribution does this, too, with infinite mana, but I have more combos that I can use Deathspore with since he only needs infinite tokens. Retribution needs infinite counters and mana.

Fair enough. Only other card I'd bother to mention would be Utopia Mycon since you mentioned mana. It's kind of a strictly worse Phyrexian Altar, but I love the little guy anyways. One of my favorite cards to play turn 1 aside from Sol Ring Other than that, +1. Love what you're doing here with Ghave.

KayneMarco

More enchantment removal would be good. I think Kithkin Spellduster has some potential. It would work well with a Phyrexian Altar combo because I could get infinite white mana that I can then dump into its ability. With Ashnod's Altar I could only use it for as much as I already have available. Its uses are a bit more limited, I think, than my other persist creatures, but it's something to consider. Reclamation Sage would be easier to abuse, and I've been considering adding that to the list for some time now. I just don't know where I would make the cut for it.

Omgawall

I love Utopia Mycon! It definitely works just fine when saprolings are all you're dealing with. It used to be in my fungus tribal version of the deck and was part of the first combos. But again like you said, Phyrexian Altar is just better.

Thanks! I appreciate your attention to the deck and your suggestions.

What about a Blade of the Bloodchief combo with Ghave and Ashnod's Altar?

rippinstrider

That’s an interesting idea. I feel like Blade of the Bloodchief is a better fit for an Edgar Markov Aristocrats deck. I actually have one of those brewing on the back burner, and ye old blade is definitely in it. I’m not sure I see as much value in Ghave, though. Using it with Ashnod's Altar would yield infinite colorless mana, but that’s about it. It’s a little underwhelming compared to my other options I’ve already got going.

Yep, Pattern of Rebirth was made for ghave!

Elenda, the Dusk Rose + Blade of the Bloodchief (as mentioned) is a great combo in my Vampiric Ghave deck - I suppose it woould be taking away from the intensity of combo synergy here. However, Elenda seems like a good powerhouse to have around - an infinitely large giant life-linker ready to swing in.

Pitiless Plunderer is in another version of Ghave I have and, with any sac cycle, he will make it infinite. I'm sure someone has recommended him already, but just in case.

This is awesome to see. Ghave is definitely a favourite of mine as well - he's pretty good for enabling janky strategies.

Here's my Janky Ghave work in progress:

Google Ghave, Search Engine of Doom *Help Wanted*

Commander / EDH* goldlion

SCORE: 8 | 29 COMMENTS | 543 VIEWS | IN 3 FOLDERS

I'd appreciate any ideas for speeding it up and enabling the general strategy. While I use some of the strategies you listed here in my regular Ghave, seeing them here have given me an idea on what to adopt for the Jank version. I've got the core idea in, but now I think it's time to bring in the altars, undying, and a few cheaper counter multipliers like Bloodspore Thrinax and Sigil Captain and Ivy Lane Denizen as Cathars' Crusade is interfering with Ghave's casting turn and the rest of the combo (in my context).

It's great to see Ghave at his best. My friends hate seeing him come out - I don't get room to breathe cause no matter what's happening on my board, the know it's a matter of time before the explosion of spores happens.

goldlion

Using Elenda is a good idea. I can see the potential there, but you're right in that it would disrupt the combo synergy of the deck just a bit. I try to make sure I have multiple paths to combos, and so I hesitate to run something that is niche or doesn't combo with as many other cards. Having a beat stick like her is great, but swinging is usually a last resort for this deck and is usually done through infinite tokens or an infinite/infinite Ghave or Carrion Feeder.

You're actually the first to bring up Pitiless Plunderer. I'm always surprised by the amount of value cards I see coming out of Ixalan. This one is actually a good one to consider for various ways to abuse infinite death triggers. I'm not sure who's spot it would take, but you've put it on my radar.

Okay...that deck idea is awesome! It's so jank, and I've never seen something quite like that before. I'll take a look at it more in depth and give you my thoughts. I tend to put a lot of stock into clever deck names, and I think you've definitely got a winning name there.

Thanks for taking the time to look at my deck. I just hope I've done Ghave justice.

I remember taking a look at this deck years ago, glad that it's still up here and running! :P

I've used your deck name plenty of times when I'm referencing a Ghave deck love your creativity!

hkhssweiss

That's great! I think the deck has gotten a little more refined since then. I'm still playing with a few ideas to tweak it as well. Most recently I've updated the deck description so it better explains the combos.

Thanks for the references! That's awesome to hear that my deck can be one that is referred to.

I recently found your deck Tenebu's Gravedigging Tendencies (Combo) and loved it!

Haha same here Abzkaban! I just recently redid my page for Teneb to make it easier to see and not have a long drawn out description lol, I'm focusing on foiling out my deck and have just 14 more cards to go... I'm dreading to obtain a foil Academy Rector and Judge Promo Survival of the Fittest....

Honestly the deck is hella solid, only thing i recommend is removing as many tap lands for faster lands. Great read and thanks for all the effort you put into the guide, I can tell it was a labor of love.

Inkmoth_

Thanks for checking it out! Yeah, the landbase is sort of semi-budget. Faster lands could and should replace the slower ones, but taplands are cheap. They also serve to make casual games more fun as I won’t combo off quite as fast which gives them a chance to disrupt me. I see this deck as walking that fine line between cEDH and casual commander. It might be able to win a few cEDH games if I’m lucky but probably not consistently so.

The Primer definitely took some time. Sorting through all the combos was a beast on its own! Lol I’m glad you liked it.

I figured one out the other day that you may like. Ghave+Slimefoot+Pitiless Plunderer+Parallel lives. Obviously Doubling Season works too. You can also replace Slimefoot with Zullaport cutthroat or blasting station. The second they hit the table it’s game over.

Nice Kederekt. While it may be slow in this deck, I have a "Vampiric Ghave" I'm building that each of those cards is in. Thanks for highlighting that for me! It's funny, I have Pitiless Plunderer and Parallel Lives in my regular Ghave, but haven't had them both on the battlefield at the same time and didn't even think of that interaction.. Just automatically thinking creature tokens. Sweet!

I think Phyrexian Tower is a better fit in your deck than Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth since you have nothing in your deck that exploit swampwalk to counterbalance the free swamp for everyone.

As you, I'm a big fan of recycling and resiliency. In that optic I think that your deck will fit pretty much in a reanimator scheme. I have made a proof of concept of what its might look if you go that way: Forthy Two. Of course this need some polishing but I think it's a good start to work around. I have also add few more combo for the win.