But adding Cyclonic Rift back in seems smart for sure

Been playing with Opt and Cyclonic instead of Orzhov and Counterspell. Thinking maybe Dispel as well for another Flash Hulk deck that's been showing up. How are the changes working for you?

@Alexdagreat I haven't played it with the changes yet so I can't say. I was gonna respond after playing, but it looks like it'll be another week at least

Hey, been playing around with subbing in Dispel for Nihil Spellbomb occasionally with some great results (for a couple Hulk and storm decks in my meta now). Still keeping Orzhov and Counterspell? Cyclonic and Opt have been good for sure.

Hulk typically plays druid as the secondary line, so I think nihil still makes sense. I haven't gotten around to making the changes for that meta, but played a couple games in the meta where the current list works very well.

I will make some swaps when I do some more testing, though. Opt is a good include for sure.

...What cards should i take out so i can add the silver cards like Blaker lotus and framed and the others

I'd replace the weaker versions of the cards for the stronger version.

So LED -> Blacker lotus, Necropotence -> Necro-impotence, and so on

My mets is now Tazri, Breakfast Hulk, Teferi, and Zur. Zur and Hulk are the top winners and IMO probably the best in the format. This list is so beastly man. Way to go in this creation.

Hahaha thanks man! Funny enough, in my work meta I run Zur and Breakfast hulk :D I think hulk is by far the best in the format speed/consistency wise, For me it's sitting at 12/23 games won. Over 50% avg win rate is just absurd.

Are you tracking the deck stats?

Zur still does a great job, too. Here is a shameless plug to a recent lab maniacs stream featuring... me and Zur!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_pUTIF5b6U

Very nice! So far its 2 for Zur, 2 for Hulk, 1 for Teferi, and 1 for Tazri. What makes Hulk better than Zur? Maybe I'm just not playing it right haha! I always found them to be in roughly the same category power-wise.

I think Hulk is faster, but Zur is more resilient and has better back-up lines. I think Dan from Lab Maniacs also said Zur, Teferi, Hulk, and Tazri are the best decks in the format currently. What are your thoughts?

I agree those are the top decks. I think hulk is better than zur because:

1. Thras/Tymna are card advantage + inf mana outlet in the command zone rather than card advantage/ removal
2. You get green for dorks/ramp/tutors so you do better in mid/late game if the game goes that long
3. Ad naus is a BACKUP plan in hulk while it's plan A in zur. If the best spell in the game is your backup plan...
4. It's the fastest deck. Flash + hulk is super quick to assemble, so is hermit druid combo.
5. Resilience is pretty OK for hulk, it actually wins through most stax easier than Zur would.

Rule of law effects: You can flash hulk on upkeep, get lab man + cephalid combo, mill and use draw step to win. This mostly applies to mana constraining cards like trinisphere/ etc. as well.

Tax effects barely hurt the combo, you only need to pay extra for flash and dread return.

Against grave hate or macabre, there's memory's journey to reset/ try later or just the flash of insight line to stifle the macabre.

Against elesh norn or linvala effects, you ad naus and assemble dramatic scepter combo.

Yeah, I'm going to start playing with Hulk more now. You make some very valid points. It is probably the strongest deck in the format right now when I see the points sized up.

Depending on the cards in the deck, there's also the hulk pile of: Lab man, druid, sylvan safekeeper. You can do that on your upkeep or on last opponent's turn, then you only need a single green to activate druid and win on your draw step, and you can sac lands to protect lab man/druid. You can even sac the land you used to pay for druid activation.

That's a nice one shot pile to get through even the weird fringe stax people might be playing, like harsh mentor. Lab man's already out so macabre doesn't stop it.

You can afford to sac all your lands, sac up to three creatures (after protecting lab man and activating druid, safekeeper and druid can be sacrificed. Druid's mill also find narcomoeba at instant speed) and still have a protected win.

So my meta has become more control-heavy, and now Zur is beating Hulk. The more control decks, the harder it is for Hulk to break through. The Necro-into-Doomsday ability really does shine over Hulk in those situations, but that being said, the Hulk combo is insanely efficient and streamlined. It really feels like even Tazri has slipped, and now Zur and Teferi are the only real viable options to actually challenge the Hulk and partner decks.

I sideboarded Dispel, Stifle, and Faerie Macabre, which has really let Zur compete with the Hulk matchup.

I like dispel and macabre against hulk, but what does stifle do that a counter doesn't?

It's pretty narrow agasint common wincons, and for the hulk matchup it stops the hulk trigger. Stifling hapless draw/dramatic scepter activation/druid is just a tturn delay. If the hulk player has a counterspell to protect their combo it's the same effectiveness, as just a counterspell IMO.

Hulk plays stifle to stop macabre, since they can play it post mill with flash of insight, but I'm not sold on it in Zur unless the meta has mostly wincons that stifle stops.

Also, is that a beta twister in your deck? Damn, man

Good point about Stifle. I was looking for cheap options that might also stop Teferi as well, so it seemed like a valid choice. Sadly, that's an Unlimited Twister haha, but I did get a signed LED, signed foil Mox Diamond, and first printings and hand-alters of everything else. The whole deck is now completely pimped. Hey, you've got one of the best decks in the format, might as well make it look the part!

I'm still debating removing Orzhov for Opt. I think Dispel for Counterspell may be permanent simply because I'm constantly facing Hulk. How's your testing been?

That's some serious pimpage. Congrats!

I agree, Zur deserves style. I'm working on foiling it out too.

I'm most likely making the orzhov swap, dispel is a meta call and I can't do it in my meta. My opponents' wincons are primarily dread return/reanimator/creature based/food chain, only 1 opponent runs Ad Nauseam, and I'm the hulk player so it's not great for me.

Okay, so you inspired me and I've been playing more Hulk recently against my group. I have to say I still prefer Shimmer Zur in a lot of situations. The Hulk combo suffers from all the dead draw that has to be either discarded or reshuffled, where as the Necropotence tutor line is WAY easier to assemble and overwhelms Hulk fast with card advantage. Do you find the version you have with Ballista plays better than the Sigi list?

Dread Returning Lab Man when Fatestitcher is in your hand or hard-casting Cephalid, Nomads, or Salvagers into a wall of counterspells is not fun.

I have this version Thrasios Tymna Hulk Flash which I should probably update since it now has hermit druid/fatestitcher/stifle. People like Sigi's list more, but I like the primary wins to be dramatic scepter or flash hulk -> lab man.

That is much less all-in than bomberman, and having more artifacts deals much better with blood moon effects. It seems wrong to me to get a bunch of cards and protection with ad naus, just to discard them all for LED lines.

There are certainly more dead draws than Zur but it is consistently much faster and deals with stax much better. Dorks + carpet mean your ramp continues through null rod and thorn effects.

Haha yeah, but no one enjoys walls of counterspells

Definitely see your point on stax and speed. I just found it increasingly frustrating when combo pieces were showing up off draws haha. Zur has the consistency that simply casting the commander will enable a winning line, but Hulk is very efficient. My issue is mainly the interaction level of the other decks and the targeting of my tutors for the Hulk wins vs Zur's Necro fetching which can't be countered. That's still the beauty of Zur, and especially Shimmer Zur!

Hey man, any new updates? I did the Opt swap, but that's it. Been working on the Breakfast Hulk list, and subbed Flash of Insight for Preordain as well as put in Merchant Scroll and Dark Confidant. I liked your list, so I tried to combine it with the Sigi build. His build feels a little too fragile in the mid/late game, whereas yours was more proactive. I felt with his, I was top-decking WAY more than I cared to admit, and I don't know why he took out Bazaar of Baghdad.