京 An illusion? What are you hiding? (cEDH-$T4KS) 京
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 287 | 178 COMMENTS | 51039 VIEWS | IN 114 FOLDERS
@pato_mtg From one Derevi player to another with pleasure! Please do keep in touch with your findings as well as my opinion is never absolute! All I can give you is my personal experience because I have been spam playing this deck in a few different meta (Since its release) and I am still able to hold down every Cedh deck (from fully tuned to experiments) out there under certain locks or with certain "hate" cards, which for me is most crucial... As soon as there is a problem deck or recurring strategy in your meta it should be solvable by running more of the same kind of hate or running different hate while not jamming the deck full with redundancy.
Stax is trial and error and will always be that way with the new stuff people find and break during new releases!
January 5, 2019 7:42 p.m.
Glad to see someone who also really enjoys playing derevi and willing to spread the art of stax across this platform. Your deck is very inspiring and refreshing, and with all the updates you had I'm able to further improve my own derevi deck. But recently, I've encountered situations where my own deck is unable to take the stage. There're these two players in my play group, one plays prossh and the other one plays the Ur-dragon. When comparing the power level between everyone's deck to those their decks, the different is basically in-measurable. But as soon as I pull out my superstar (In this case, derevi), they will immediately put me on the watch list without considering the fact that they've won for almost every games we've played, especially the prossh player. Nearly all boardwipes were used against me, having to rebuild my board nearly every single turn. The real question is, how much stax is enough? And just what can I do to prevent them from trampling my board again? How should I make it less "hateful"?
p.s. Will Prime Speaker Vannifar be good in derevi?
January 10, 2019 3:42 a.m.
@Rats1la, Hey there! I've discussed Prime Speaker Vannifar a few comments back!
++ So you are facing these two decks :
- Scion of the Ur-Dragon ; So this deck has a few ways it can be played :
. ("Hermit Druid combo + Laboratory Maniac") ,
. ("Hermit Druid + Necrotic Ooze") ,
. ("Insta gib Moltensteel Dragon+Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon") ,
. ("Casual dragon tribal")
. ("Reanimator")
and probably some more janky ways... But I've played against versions that spam out Mana dorks as well for a quick Win with either the "Insta-Gib" or "Hermit" win conditions as well as reanimator. Every version of this deck is comparably slow to the higher end CEDH decks out there. While it may surprise very very rarely with a super early victory they do both have access to Fire Covenant , Toxic Deluge , Red Elemental Blast , Pyroblast , Negate and other counterspells as well as Abrupt Decay and can be packed with artifact and enchantment removal...
- Prossh, Skyraider of Kher ; This deck is mainly focused on Food Chain while General tazri does it way better and faster this deck also plays an assortment of mana dorks to try speed up the process and also has access to the same wipes and control as mentioned above except it doesn't have ... Nothing extra special here though.
Conclusion: Both decks suffer from an early sphere and orb effect Like any other CEDH deck, but these suffer a tad harder as they still need to amass a certain amount of mana to blow out their win conditions compared to the fast decks that run under 2 - 3 mana (like a hermit/hulk deck).
Depending on your meta: if it's more casual The likes of Gaddock Teeg stop most of the late game wipes and the common sphere effects will delay the faster ones so you can aggressively tap their mana under orb effects... If none of the above if accessible you either kept a bad hand and didn't really have a gameplan with your opening hand or they raced out the right things at the right time which happens...
(If both are actively just focusing you because they think it's fun let them collude! Just find Cards that utterly Wreck what they are trying to do and actively search for those in games!!!)
Sanctum Prelate on also works wonders in this matchup as it stops food chain as well as the faster wipes like deluge and covenant...
Also prioritizing hate/Stax that is unaffected during a creature board wipe will genuinely result in a positive outcome for you. While not always Obvious at first some cards just also stop what they want to do in the future like recently I pulled a turn 1 Aven Mindcensor in response to end step fetching shenanigans while hitting a tutor at the same time from someone else... (Good Scoop!)... Grave hate might work for reanimator versions and Rule of law effects stops Prossh from going infinite. Linvala also does wonders if they are on a lot of dorks... Just got to Mulligan far more aggressively... (Down to 4 is possible but 5 is the recommended low!)
(If you come across problem cards feel free to leave them here and we will try and find answers for you!)
January 10, 2019 1:16 p.m.
( Running counterspells yourself also stops some of them if they do happen to bypass your stax like Negate , Spell Pierce etc anything at Mana or less that isn't too color intensive either because double blue is not always available at the early stages of the game!)
January 10, 2019 3:08 p.m. Edited.
@Kiyomei, thanks for all the advise above. There're still some extras that I need to specify:
-
It's The ur-dragon from edh 2017 precon (apologies for not specifying the card) and just like the comment above, he ramps, but not as hard as the prossh player. But he will eventually end up having tons of dragons on board and smack us all down.
-
The prossh player, doesn't have food chain. Always win on the occasion of having tons of tokens and either smack us with them (Hit/Run or beast master ascension) or sac outlet and drain all/one (usually me) of us with mtg zulaport cutthroat or blood artist which no one will ever take attention of them.
-
By the time when those 2 players and I have all the pieces ready, everyone (most of the time, will be a 6 way game) will just start taking me down. And by next turn, they will all just die because there weren't any counterspells or stax materials on the board to shutdown prossh. The best part is they will literately call out anyone who plays blue or had a counterspell and start talking about how it should've been used against prossh.
I've always been targeting the prossh player every start of the game. If I kill one of his stuffs, he will blame me, and I'll either get boardwiped or die to 450 on hit. If I don't, we all die together except the prossh player.
Ever been so frustrated by the fact that we all knew who's going to win but no one is willing to take the action or even build alliance in order to just kick prossh out of the game? That's me for like the past 50 games....
I know, this isn't about the ur-dragon. But prossh, is my greatest fear.
(I recently had a game where the prossh player helps the ur-drag player so he can win, end up being just the two. Guess what? prossh won, because he lied :P)
There really isn't any chance for me to political-talk-out-of them because derevi gives no advantages to anyone and they prefer ending the game fast so they can move on to another one.
January 10, 2019 4:49 p.m.
Hey Rats1la, I'm afraid I can not help you with precons and low tier commander builds... Derevi Stax is a deck that scales with the power level of your pod as is known for the STAX Build sadly. Meaning you would want to have an entirely different build than this to combat what you are facing.
(Also I don't ever play in pods larger than 4 as that is no longer the way commander is meant to be played! I do a lot of tournaments, fnm, and online pods so I generally am not familiar with large casual group play!)
So I can help you with cards that stop certain interactions I guess... But First and foremost check out the Derevi SideBoard I made, Perhaps you can find Cards of your liking that will interact with your playgroup!
京 An illusion? (SideBoard) 京
Commander / EDH*
SCORE: 1 | 27 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER
And The tier list which has many different Versions I deem worthy of checking out! :
京 The Cedh Derevi tier list collection 京
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 5 | 2 COMMENTS | 144 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER
I myself also don't get political or emotional about people working together as that is not part of our gameplan... Ours is of a hard lock victory and no one is going to want to work with you ever and because of this, we run a tight curve that leaves no breathing room for fast CEDH decks. The longer this deck does not lose the more inevitability there is to present a hard lock victory by piecing together parts of the puzzle. (These interactions include board states where one can attack safely for example with a Winter Orb out and some sphere effects like Sphere of Resistance + Thalia, Guardian of Thraben + Trinisphere so they can't even cast spells that cost 0 mana while you aggressively keep tapping their lands... This is just one tiny example but this deck is packed with answers to the Highest end CEDH Decks and while the ability to lock down people is consistent the board state is and should never be the same!)
January 11, 2019 11:05 a.m.
AzureOctive says... #8
Upvote for the title alone, no idea what the deck is about
January 19, 2019 9:16 p.m.
Archon of Valor's Reach is a 6 drop that doesn't win you the game if you are going to cut anything for Prime Speaker Vannifar , thats what I would cut unless the archon really does so much work that you are willing to go up the chain hardcore and grab it. In that case I guess you wouldn't want to cut a pay off for an engine.
January 24, 2019 5:08 p.m.
@Noahsucks, Well it has won me many games at the moment and naming instants breaks most of our CEDH meta, but he doesn't only do that he is a stasis enabler for the more casual slower tables... Because I attend a lot of leagues,fnm and commander tournaments here, I do as well meet lower end decks or more casual decks among the first rounds for example and this is a niche card that does a good job at combatting both kinds of playstyles...
But you do have a valid point as a drop is borderline huge in some cases and is never out fast enough vs our most fast decks anyway...
I'll consider it when testing this weekend!
January 25, 2019 12:58 a.m.
I was originally just going to upvote for the WoW reference in the title, but the expansive information you've provided is actually worth the vote.
Nice job.
January 25, 2019 8:59 a.m.
After a solid amount of testing Lavinia, Azorius Renegade this is what I found,
She Shines in Stormy meta where a lot of rituals and extreme artifact ramp is used as they won't be able to cast what they want as early as they would have wanted... Her first Ability really slows down some of the Faster decks that cheat things in play from anywhere be it A High CMC Card that wants to go through with Artifact ramp or early Mana-dorks trying to get ahead...
She also stops certain Flashback cards with alternate costs (Like Dread Return before the 4th land drop as they can still hardcast it from their hand after a while) or even Counterspells, draw spells or any other Non-Creature spells with alternate costs Like Force of Will , Pact of Negation and Gush ...
To be blunt This Ability is at best a Soft-lock with a ticking time bomb unless they don't make their land drops and they get stuck... Her second ability it is still impactful enough to consider her a threatening Stax piece solely because both of her abilities are an asymmetrical advantage...
Countering Spells that your opponents cast and didn't pay mana for is an obvious Stax must have but also Stopping scepter combo's and infinite Non-Creature outlet spells because they just can't cast them that way is very interesting!
All that while only costing you ...
25-1-2019 - Players may cast spells that they know Lavinia will counter. Any abilities that trigger when spells are cast will trigger and resolve if appropriate, and any effects that count spells cast will count those spells if appropriate.
25-1-2019 - Effects that modify or replace the cost to cast a spell (such as spectacle) don’t affect the spell’s converted mana cost, so they won’t change whether Lavinia’s first ability restricts that spell from being cast.
25-1-2019 - For spells with Variable Colorless in their mana costs, use the value chosen for X to determine the spell’s converted mana cost.
25-1-2019 - If an effect allows a player to cast a spell without paying its mana cost, that player can’t choose to cast it and pay its mana cost unless another rule or effect allows that player to cast it that way.
(Also on a minor note card effects that state "You Can't" always beat effects that say "you can" for example if your spell can't be countered and it costs zero somehow Lavinia will trigger and won't counter the spell)
Some minor Glitches I found:
When I Started to test her as a commander for a short while she usually slowed down a lot of the "Fast-Cedh" decks and stopped most of the "cheat in-game" ones... I can certainly say she is better as 1 in the 99 than using her at the helm of any deck as her win conditions are really slow and bad while being a great Stax Piece.
(Apart from being a solid support deck In 2HG she has high power in controlling the Game but no real chance at consistently winning...)
-
Helm of Awakening For example makes a Sol Ring , Mana Vault and any spell that would have costed cost instead and countering those cards...
-
yet we run a lot of Sphere Effects (+) contradicting her second ability and allowing your opponents to yet again cast their moxes and crypts... Although it is just a minor setback to what the card can do it still has its powerful Soft-Lock interactions...
January 27, 2019 5:54 p.m.
Cuickbrownfox1 says... #13
Has anybody thought of using food chain to make infinite mana with Derevi? The way it works 1) Play food chain 2) Play Derevi 3) Exile Derevi then play for alternative casting cost. The net gain from this is one untapped permanent. So you can continually get, at minimum, one mana, as well as tapping down your opponents board. This can be done at instant speed!
February 2, 2019 7:08 a.m.
@Cuickbrownfox1 so i have the rules here for you ;)
- 17-10-2013
You can activate Derevi’s last ability only when it is in the command zone.
- 17-10-2013
When you activate Derevi’s last ability, you’re not casting Derevi as a spell. The ability can’t be countered by something that counters only spells. The ability isn’t subject to the additional cost of casting commanders from the command zone.
So if I am not mistaken it is impossible to use the Food Chain 's mana for Derevi since you are using an ability and not casting or playing a creature spell. To make This work one would need a third piece that could generate Mana like Eternal Scourge or Misthollow Griffin and then proceeding to use Derevi's ability to create an arbitrarily large amount of taps and untaps...
I'm not a huge fan Of three to four card combo's (Even if one is one is in the command zone you still lack outlets) outside of scepter combo's as they just outright synergize with basic ramp cards like sol ring and mana crypt, etc etc... But I'm very positive you can find people that have tried to abuse her this way on tapped out... The thing is though she doesn't compare in speed to real food chain decks unless something in Bant colors is printed that could break that.
February 2, 2019 10:05 a.m.
Cuickbrownfox1 says... #15
The way Food Chain works is you exile Derevi, producing 4. Now note that Derevi's ability puts her onto the battlefield. When Derevi enters she gets to untap something. So you exile Derevi using Food Chain producing for, then re-play using her ability. So you just exiled and re-played for free. But remember you also get to untap a permanent using Derevi's ability, therefore you actually net a one mana profit. Therefore infinite mana. Exiling Derevi allows you to put her into the command zone, therefore allowing you to use her abilities.
February 2, 2019 1:38 p.m.
Cuickbrownfox1 says... #16
Hold on never mind I am a fool. Just realized how Food Chain actually works. Thanks Kiyomei
February 2, 2019 1:42 p.m.
NP! Glad I was of help, I wish it was that easy as well but sadly it doesn't work that way as you can't use the mana for abilities even though they are for creatures :'(.
As I said if you wanted the Infinite mana you'de have to use the scourge or Griffin mentioned earlier and then one could start using Derevi for untaps and taps but it's so much stuff to work around it becomes redundant.
There are also possibilities with Stonybrook Schoolmaster and Intruder Alarm + Azami, Lady of Scrolls or Drowner of Secrets But then you would be looking at kinda a lower power Wizard build.
February 2, 2019 5:53 p.m.
Hello again, @Kiyomei! I've had the chance to play a bit more with the deck and have a couple of questions regarding card choices...
Any reason why you don't play Crop Rotation ? I know Weathered Wayfarer does something similar but I feel like the "instant" thing on Crop Rotation should be a good reason to use it and get that Nykthos or Cradle.
Same question for Swords to Plowshares and Nature's Claim . Have you found that you have such a good lock most of the games where your oppponents don't play anything that you don't have to worry about removal?
I run a list that's pretty similar to yours but now I have to find something to cut in order to play Lavinia (she is amazing!) and noticed you don't run any of those three and was wondering why, anyway, thanks in advance!
February 16, 2019 10:43 p.m.
Hi , @pato_mtg . Thank you for your Question!
So the reason I do not run Crop Rotation right now is that I don't feel it is truly 100 % necessary as a must have mainboard card just for its one-time use... When used Solely for explosiveness that ultimately could still get you nowhere while it doesn't advance our lock in any way nor does it provide us with a turn 2 Derevi just seems Redundant to me... It Could also end up being a very very dead draw at some points in the game for just a "single-use-1-land-fetch" compared to Weathered Wayfarer in our longer grindy games which this deck aims for anyway or after the occasional Mass land destruction occurs ( Ravages of War ) :'( ...
But then again I've had success with it as well before by gaining quick access to Gaea's Cradle with some dudes out and a Yisan, the Wanderer Bard in play or finding me Forsaken City to fuel my Stasis -Lock... While it can also give you card draw trough Horizon Canopy or soft counter a Wasteland / Strip Mine type effect finding you a replacement... I mean there is nothing wrong with running it and sure has some uses... It's an excellent card to be sure. but my Problem with it has always been the sheer disadvantage of losing card + Land Advantage and the possibility to have it be countered instead. losing all your tempo for just explosiveness is not my playstyle as I'd rather look at plays to keep my opponents from winning at all!
I am pretty aware of most Combo creatures and threats for us that are hard to deal with. But just one effect like this doesn't feel right and Chances (%) are so slim of you having this at your disposal and it being castable as well... I do run effective removal that is also a little more grindy in the form of Ulvenwald Tracker ... I've become a huge fan of this card as you can force Derevi or other creatures heck even Dorks to smash into a Hermit Druid for example... Most of these combo creatures are very low toughness. Or the ability to keep removing Dorks and such is also very effective.
As a creature heavy deck, most combo decks won't get through to you that easily by aggro either or go for aggro at all anyway as that is mostly not their go to win condition... I mean we can eat Tymna the Weaver or Najeela, the Blade-Blossom all day unless you're facing a lot of reanimator or Toolbox threats like Yisan that you need to deal with at instant speed... Yeah, then I'd side it in too!
If you could actually share or talk about the number of times this saved you from specific things that would definitely be interesting to take in consideration for other people looking for flex slots, or talk about the cards that force you to run this?!
With a deck so packed with hate towards artifacts and enchantments, I feel this only really becomes truly necessary over something like Aura Shards if an opponent managed to slip through your Stax and resolve a crucial combo piece which surely happens from time to time... Especially after the Aetherflux Reservoir and Paradox Engine / Iso-reversal prints... It could fit in the deck instead of Aura Shards easily. The Only reason I haven't had to do so yet is because of grindy cards that allow me to take piece by piece...
Sure I've died to Aetherflux Reservoir while having Stony Silence + Null Rod in play and losing both with a bunch of other Stax in play... But I mean Nature's Claim would then still need to be just that right card at that right moment with such a low chance (%) being the card you draw or get access to every game for just its single use...
Hope that was of help and explained my thought process behind not running them in the current iteration for the time being. (Subject to Change according to meta or personal needs anyway and all of them are in my Sideboard explanation in the Primer!)
(Ya win some ya lose some :'( , But consistently wise I prefer the Grindy setup that aims to remain effective over the one time uses.)
February 17, 2019 1:09 a.m.
Thanks so much for the detailed explanation!
All of them make a lot of sense when reading your thoughts on it. I think I am a bit biased since last week I played against a friend who managed to Reanimate a turn 2 Sheoldred, Whispering One and it definitely felt like a losing battle most of the game until I top decked the Swords to Plowshares but that was just lucky on my part and not something I can rely on since I don't even have any method of tutoring it. And, as you said, you win some, you lose some.
That also showed me how important Containment Priest is and added it to my list, I wasn't previously running it because of Birthing Pod , Chord of Calling , etc., but now I think it is really worth its slot.
Thanks again!
February 17, 2019 5:10 p.m.
@pato_mtg, I've actually been thinking about replacing Aura Shards for a while now because of these pesky artifacts... And going over your question, again and again, has changed my mind about it...
Scenarios, where it could have been way more useful than my enchantment, is plentiful as far as I can recall! also, the only way to stop them with Aura Shards would be creatures with flash which also has very low odds to pull of anyway and we already have a fair bit of hate towards artifacts so it could actually act as a backup you can keep up if you have a Null Rod out and people are looking for an end step removal to try and go for a win on their turn regardless of how Staxy your board is with Artifact combos mentioned in the previous post.
Although for the other two, I'm still not 100% convinced even though Reanimator occasionally screw you over with a turn 1 or 2 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur or any of the commonly used targets like Sheoldred... we do still have a re-castable untapping/tapping bird at our disposal that can still prolong the game to a point where those beasts won't easily beat you down anyway. And it will eventually require other people to respond too if it doesn't snowball to far out of hand. I feel like running Counter spells like Flusterstorm , Spell Pierce And similar cards like this for these early reanimator scenario's is something I'd prefer as they could also prevent board wipes that slip through at other points in the game! And imagine a pod where 2-3 of your opponents manage to put a reanimated beast on the table... Your singular swords won't save you and you just move on I guess :'(...
Or yea to flash in Containment Priest only for these kinds of scenarios :)! Heck, I'd even run more grave-hate before I'd consider swords if Reanimator was a problem as you have so many choices...
Ground Seal , Grafdigger's Cage , Rest in Peace , Silent Gravestone , etc, etc...
(It will be a pain to see Aura Shards go as I've had so much success with it removing every single Ramp artifact and later on crucial pieces they needed a turn cycle for to go off with :'(... but the day has come to accept that CEDH loves its Paradoxfluxervoirscepter or chain veil combos too much and storm is everywhere xD)
February 18, 2019 2:23 a.m. Edited.
thanks for all the info, I'll take everything into account and of course, play more, to see what do I need for my meta. I think you are right,a low cost counterspell will be more beneficial for that early game interaction.
Thanks again and I look forward to more of your updates!
February 18, 2019 3:21 p.m.
justindomingue says... #23
Awesome deck! Just finished sleeving up a budget version of it! So much fun to play!
Question: what do you think is the optimal time to play Root Maze ? Suppose you have Root maze and Fyndhorn Elves in hand. Would you prioritize the elves on turn 1 to (maybe) get ahead of opponents or would you slam it on turn one to slow down everyone?
Also have you thought of Academy Ruins as late game recursion? I'm hesitant to fill a slot with Sun Titan or Eternal Witness but a colorless land seems okay with a flexible mana base.
February 25, 2019 5:59 p.m.
Hi, justindomingue
I'm glad you are enjoying the deck! So Root Maze or Fyndhorn Elves is a choice you regularly have to make and both are interchangeable with other Mana Hate or Mana producing cards... Generally depends on your turn order as going last will put you behind the most with Root Maze while opponents have already played lands or Artifacts, But going first will slow down Fetching and people that try to go for early explosiveness so let me explain my thoughts.
This all just comes down to what decks your opponents are on. If you are aware or even slightly feel like Generic-person or Generic-Deck wants to race you. You slam down the maze (Not if you're last). this mostly only applies to hulk decks or a few fast combo decks out there as most of them really only go live turn 3... While Hulk can occasionally go live turn 2 sure but that won't always happen either as there are still other people that could be holding answers (This also applies to Sphere/Orb effects as they only go live turn 2 to 3 really depending on your meta! But getting them out turn 2/3 can be crucial!)...
So with that said going for The Elf on your first turn is never really a mistake in most matchups... Because getting Derevi out on turn two means you can simply follow up by untapping a mana source and adding a Hate piece, in this case, the Root Maze .
About Academy Ruins , So this deck has a really low land count, to begin with, and not providing you with any colors Academy ruins is just not justifiable as it will hurt its consistency. If I had to make the choice the range or targets for both Sun Titan and Eternal Witness are far better... (and on a side note Sun titan can keep a Stasis alive and smash people hard!)
I understand in many scenarios you will lose Artifacts along the way but this card alone won't bring you back in the game and is very slow if you are getting wiped of Artifacts or focused, I am pretty satisfied with the land base except that I'm missing Horizon Canopy but I refuse to get me a Future sight or the ugly new one :'( (Soon I'll order the expedition).
February 26, 2019 4:04 a.m.
BattousaiYngwie says... #25
Why haven't i seen Seedborn Muse in the most upvoted Derevi decks in this site? Sounds like it would be amazing, plus it being 5cmc gives you a tutor for Yisan's fifth counter, which most derevi decks seem to lack
pato_mtg says... #1
@Kiyomei thanks for such a detailed response, I really appreciate it! I look forward to your findings regarding Prime Speaker Vannifar, I think it is a really interesting addition and hopefully it does well, I'll keep an eye on your primer for sure!
And regarding counterspells, that is really interesting! I guess I'll have to finish building the deck and give a try with my playgroups and decide if I can manage without any counterspells or if I have to make room for a couple or so, thanks again for the time you spent with the response!
January 5, 2019 2:32 p.m.