I remember the Whirlpool creatures being played in some Duel Commander lists that I looked at, but I've generally been skeptical of those sorts of wheel effects for fixing a poor hand. My luck isn't the best, so I try to cut down on leaving stuff up to chance like that. I at least like that the Whirlpool Warrior can force opponents to wheel their hands too so that it can be used as a bit of disruption if one of your opponents is looking a little too comfortable with the current state of their board and hand. It might allow your opponents to draw into a counterspell that they may not have had before but, eh, what can you do? There's no guarantee that they didn't have a counterspell in hand anyway.

Yeah, Warrior is the one I'd play. It clears out a junk hand on ETB, then you can use it a second time, even aggressively if needed. two wheels and an Animar counter for 1-2 mana is a solid deal, even if they're not "real" wheels.

I'm also really liking Phantasmal for the list. I know it's an old standard for the deck but I dismissed it ages ago as being too conditional. The more consistent the deck becomes though, the more likely it'll be a good card, so we may be reaching a point where ill be brave enough to run it, lol.

Also, fun fact i discovered playing last night: the whole Kiki combo is Recruitable! I know its a little old-fashioned to use Recruiter as a barometer for what's playable in the deck, but being able to recruit out a Kiki was a pleasant surprise for sure. Recruiter>Kiki, copy Recruiter>Pester/Exarch untapping Kiki>combo out is a sweet possibility

Yep, the Recruiter is awesome with Kiki. If you have Recruiter on the board already, and both parts of the Kiki combo already in hand, what I like to do is cast Kiki first and tap it targeting the Recruiter. At that point your opponents may be assuming that you plan to dig for a Pestermite so they might either A) attempt to kill the Recruiter in response to deny you the tutor effect; or B) attempt to kill Kiki to cut off your combo but still give you the opportunity to tutor for something once the spells and effects resolve. In either case, you've baited their instant speed removal and can cast the Pestermite in your hand in response, allowing you to combo off.

If the Pestermite is somehow dealt with though, you still get to keep Kiki if they went with option A. If they went with option B then you can either tutor up Eternal Witness to get Kiki back to try again next turn or you can instead chain into the Shrieking Drake + Phyrexian Metamorph game plan.

If your opponent's aren't trigger-happy with their removal, they might wait to see what you tutor up first. In this instance, they are probably planning to kill Kiki in response to you playing the Pestermite that they assume you are tutoring for. However, since you already have the Pestermite in your hand, you can use the tutor effect to just grab the Witness or Metamorph.

I really like this setup because it is both resilient and allows you to pivot into alternative options quickly. Your opponents will probably need to have multiple instant speed answers available that one turn to be able to stop you, and that's without you having any protection of your own available.

Oh yeah, and if they wait to see what you tutor for first, a third option for you is to tutor up Deceiver Exarch. This plays into their expectations. You cast the Exarch, they attempt to kill Kiki, then you cast the Pestermite that's already in your hand in response to combo off.

Oh man, the level of instant-speed tricks you can pull is fantastic. I was only just figuring it out last week, since im so used to playing as a sorcery-sped creature deck, but there's some really cool stuff you can do with this setup. Definitely beats Cloudstone and Earthcraft as a secondary wincon bc it can give you a wide range totally different lines even with all the same tools already in the deck. i'm really liking it!

I've had horrible luck with running counterspells like Pact of Negation and Force of Will because I keep finding myself in situations where they wind up being unplayable. I ended up taking them out and started leaning more heavily on what instant speed tricks I could muster.

Luckily, most of the commonly used counterspells that people run at a cEDH level don't stop creature spells. The most prominent ones that Animar has to worry about are Mana Drain, Pact of Negation, and Force of Will. Without counterspells of your own in hand there isn't much you can do about Pact or FoW but they are somewhat situational so you can guess the likelihood of someone being able to cast one or not. Mana Drain is something that you can kind of deal with though, especially since someone leaving up just two blue mana sources is a decently strong telegraph. In those instances, if I'm looking to combo off, I might cast Pestermite either at the end of the opponent's turn or during my upkeep to tap down one of their blue sources.

Kiki is also one of the reasons I have Scryb Ranger in my deck. Aside from providing mana fixing and ramp by bouncing land to be replayed and untapping mana dorks, I can flash it in to untap Kiki in response to removal. This has saved my combo on a number of occasions.

I've managed to combo off with Kiki on turn 3, but it requires Lotus Cobra. Turn 1) Land + Mana elf. Turn 2) Cast Lotus Cobra, then drop and crack a fetch to get 3 mana and play Pestermite. Turn 3) Drop a land, get a mana off the Cobra, then tap your elf and lands to play Kiki. It's definitely a "luck of the draw" sort of win, but I've pulled it off a couple of times.

there are definitely some very plausible Cobra lines, but i always found them to be less frequent than the times when cobra was a dead card slightly later in the game. Mana generation/fixing was never the decks major issue, so the more situational dorks like Cobra became easier targets for cuts.

Scryb is another card I picked up a while back after seeing it in your list, but without Kiki in the deck it was underwhelming. Even with, it seems a little situational, essentially requiring Kiki or a 2+ mana dork on board to be fully effective. I'm still not sure here.

Counterspells are def a place where you can meta-tune the deck. I've found that any amount of mana you feed into them is poorly spent, but that free ones are rarely a bad thing to have in hand. Force has plenty of good blue targets in the list, and making 5 mana for Pact isnt unreasonable. Misstep is def the narrowest one, but also the easiest to use. The alternative to running counterspells is to pack extra protection and redundancy. Stuff like Cavern+Crop rotation, Gaea's Herald/Serpopard, Ewitt/Den Pro all do a decent job pushing you through failed combo attempts (and of course, playing smart at instant speed is a fantastic skill!) but I like the ability of blue counterspells to shut down an opposing deck, or even just threaten to, is very valuable in cEDH. Animar isn't always the best deck at using these, but especially in my Stormy meta i like being able to Force shit sometimes. My strategy has been to run the a split best defensive cards (recursion, Cavern, Safekeeper, Skite) as well as the best counterspells (the free ones). Just being 100% defensive works a lot of the time, but having a few counterspells lets me play a bit more of a flexible game.

And of course, my favorite word when playing this deck is "noncreature". It's always fun to watch someone grimace as you combo off while they're holding Negate and Swan Song. Even better, last night I cast Brutalizer Exarch to bury a blue opponent's untapped Island, then cloned it to hit the other one. He asked "can you even do that?". you bet, since it says "noncreature", not "nonland"!

I really should try out the Brutalizer Exarch. I know that you've complimented it before, and I can't really think of anything else I would rather use to replace Hoverguard Sweepers.

I basically consider Scryb Ranger a mana dork that in some cases even refunds you the mana you spent to cast it the turn it comes into play. On any turn you don't have an additional land drop, you can just bounce a Tropical Island or Taiga to your hand and replay it for what essentially counts as a free mana that turn. It's something that I found increasingly relevant as I slowly shaved away at my land count. If you have a mana dork out, then the Ranger helps to generate even more mana. And of course, it pairs very nicely with Bloom Tender and Kiki.

Random things I've used the Ranger for include: Flashing in and saving a Tropical Island from being Strip Mined, catching people off guard by pumping Animar up at instant speed, and providing a surprise blocker when a pumped up Zur with infect was swung at me. It's kind of surprising how often that Protection from Blue can come in handy, and people sometimes don't even notice the ability when reading the card.

But yes, there are situational aspects to how useful the card is. All I can say is that it has worked out pretty well for me. I guess I'd rate it in the same category as cards like Phantasmal Image. They are both cheap utility creatures that aren't essential to the deck and are somewhat situational in their power level, but they've pulled me out of tight spots on at least a semi-regular basis and have been beneficial to the deck in squeaking out extra mana that was needed while attempting to storm off.

Hey, I just want to say I think you're really good. I've been using your deck for over a year now. I haven't updated it with your changes cause really it doesn't matter. Everyone hates me. Thinks I'm a "netdecking faggot". Fuck them. Love you <3. I've been using it against a Narset and the amount of salt I get from the player is too fucking funny. It made me literally smile for a half an hour straight. I am starting to sway away from using the deck because it is ridiculously powerful if you're not stopped immediately. But thanks for the great times with this deck. I really respect the time and effort you've put into it.

Saber: Those Scryb plays are spicy. Looks like your build leans a bit more toward the instant speed tricks than mine, which seems really fun. I'll have to test it out a bit more now that Im in that mindset. Phantasmal too.

SilentSpartan: glad you're having fun! hopefully your playgroup takes the hint and powers up their decks a bit. then the games will be even more fun!

No Aluren? It's been an auto include for me.

I've had games where I've been able to cast Aulren, cast Animar for Free, Cast Man-o-war or another card, bouncing itself into casting whatever is available.

It's occurred on Turn 3 way to many times.

Your meta may be real tight, unfortunately the league I play in has 25+ players with 3+ cEDH decks. Each week is drastically different so I need more versatility then standard lines. Animar, Soul of Combos - Turn 3 Win

Yeah, Aluren has always been a little loose IMO. It definitely enables degenerate things, but in a more competitive meta it's expensive at 4 CMC, and I hate having to go all-in on a plan that can be stopped by noncreature counters. spending 4 mana on this then having it countered often means either turn 3 or 4 is a total wash, and that can be a death sentence in a comp meta. Al least with Animar you get some protection by being a creature and having access to Cavern.

Still, its on the reserved list, so thanks for reminding me to scoop a copy to test with. I hate the idea that a decent but niche card can go from $20 to $100 overnight, but that's how things go now. better to have it in my binder than need it a year from now if the met shifts.

It's too bad that Animar doesn't have many ways of tutoring for enchantments, you are pretty much depending on Gamble for that.

One of the biggest concerns I have regarding Aluren is that I like playing Animar when there is a Stax deck at the table, but I really don't want them to have the ability to flash in their creatures like Hushwing Gryff and Eidolon of Rhetoric for free in response to me trying to combo off. Even if Animar is built to be better able to take advantage of Aluren, I am not fond of the idea of giving my opponents the ability to cast spells for free at instant speed in such a competitive environment.

Granted, a lot of cEDH decks aren't as creature heavy as Animar or Bloodpod, so I can see how in terms of averages it can potentially win you more games than it backfires on you.

I think that using Aluren is risky, but if you are willing to use it and are able to snag wins with it then I think they are wins well deserved.

Yeah, i'd be more keen on the risk if it weren't a 4 CMC card. Its just such a blowout if it goes wrong, and a smart opponent will know what to do to screw you over.

Like, best case scenario is that your Drake, Stalker and Man-o-war are all Statues now, starting on turn 3-4. Worst case is your get brutally hosed by some hate piece with flash. Most likely though it just seems like you'll be utterly blown out by a counter when you should've pushed Animar through, and you'll scrub out on a crucial turn. So high risk, high reward, but pretty weak middle ground too, in a decent pod.

And yeah, Saber's right, its just as untutorable as Earthcraft and Cloudstone, so you'll have to work hard to build a line around it. It could just as easily ruin a good opeener/topdeck as it could save a shitty game. Thats a level of unevenness i'm trying to smooth out from the deck, given that we have some pretty sketchy starts sometimes already.

But hey, I spend $40 on the thing so I'll give it a few games once it comes in. Seems fun but the slot is probably better filled by the next worst draw/tutor/protection piece available. I'm currently looking hard at Peregrine Drake for a cut, but that slot may just got to Crop Rotation instead. I rituals the same way by fetching Cradle, but can also grab Cav, and can be snagged by Seeker.

As always, it's a blast chatting with you guys and finding new tech to try out. I think Kiki will be a really good addition to the deck that I never would've bothered to test/research if it weren't for this thread!

It's nice to have a thread like this for discussing Animar. I wasn't finding many up-to-date threads on Reddit prior to finding this list, so I was working off of Duel Commander deck lists and what little I could scrape together from the odd tournament video. Having a place to actually discuss ideas has been great, even if a lot of ideas unfortunately end up on the chopping block.

Well thats just how it goes! if we get one great idea for every 10 that dont work out, we still had one good idea!

Is there a reason to run Peregrine Drake over Palinchron when Palichron is another one card combo with Animar given X counters?

@ Whatever777

The decision comes down to a matter of speed and efficient expenditure of mana. Palinchron doesn't just need 5+ counters on Animar, you also need at least 6 lands out with four of them able to produce blue mana. Animar has ways of fairly consistently comboing off on turn 4, so as you refine the deck you tend to focus more on those combo lines. While Palinchron could still potentially help net mana, a lot of the time it was just too expensive to cast and net any serious value from before Animar finds another way to win. It starts to become a clunky draw most games due to the amount of setup it needs to be effective.

So Palinchron gets the boot and Peregrine Drake stays in because the drake is cheaper to cast, requires less colored mana, can net a large amount of extra mana earlier in the game, can be tutored for with Imperial Recruiter, is easier to tutor for with cards like Eldritch Evolution, and can still be a combo component with other cards in the deck.

If you are in a play group where games tend to go longer you might find Palinchron a viable addition, but if the group is really competitive then you often don't get enough turns to put Palinchron to good use.

Palinchron falls into the category of big splashy thing you can do with a ton of Animar counters, vorinclex/Jin, Savage Ventmaw/Aggravated Assault combo, boardwiping with Steel Hellkite, casting Void Winnower etc. They're all super powerful plays and can easily break parity in a midrange game. some of them even effectively win the game.

but the question is, if youre gonna set up one of those plays, why not just win with statue? none of those plays are as fast and easy to set up as spamming statue, and they're all harder to win the game with. So over time, in order to make the deck more efficient, they got cut and Statue stayed in.

Peregrine drake is a different kind of card from Palinchron in this deck. it's a +4 mana ritual most games, and can go a long way to power us through a stormy turn. thats essentially 4 more creature casts, 4 more good ETBs or cast triggers, 4 more checks with Vizier, etc. The card may not be 100% optimal all the time, especially given out land count, but it's a surprisingly useful little dude a lot of the time.

I'm just saying with the exact same counters for that to be a 4 mana ritual Palinchron is also a four mana ritual, just because 4 counters = 4 mana off any spell and those two go even with their own cost. But one just has better potential to do more than one thing. So even if you just wanted a ritual, it could fulfill that slot, as well as having win potential on top of doing what the drake does

Getting to 4 counters isnt the issue, it's spending all that U. Yes it can be a wincon, but we have a bunch of those, so i'd prefer the better ritual.

And in a deck with so few lands, the cheaper land untapper is definitely preferable. Drake is substantially better when you're on 2-3 lands.

Thanks so much for all the explaining and conversation. I made animar when I pulled one and a recruiter in a M25 sealed. Still need a glimpse and a few duels but otherwise complete. Having lots of fun with it even though after a few I seem to forget how to play the deck and fumble a ton. Was also missing the cradle. Do you feel it's required? It's just so pricey wife would have a fit haha. Thanks

Glad youre having fun! You'll definitely get better with practice; after all my time with the deck it feels like second nature now!

No, Cradle isn't necessary at all. It's good to have sometimes, but we usually reduce the costs of most of our creatures anyway. Statue+Ballista is basically free, and Kiki requires mostly red, so it's inessential to any of our combos. I do like it if I need to jam an Enchantress effect early or hard-cast Kozilek or something, but these are super niche plays. If it were more essential, I'd play Crop Rotation in the list, but currently I treat Cradle as a nice boost when we get it, but not worth building/playing around most of the time.

I've found that Gaea's Cradle tends to speed the deck's game plan up by about 1 turn if it comes down early, but yeah, it's not essential. It's probably one of the first cuts you could make to save yourself a significant amount of cash when building the deck. I hadn't realized how expensive the card is now.

Lol then don't even look at Mox Diamond.

But yeah I revised the budget lists today, so if anyone's looking for a similar deck that's not $4000 that'd be a start.