@ DragonGodKing90

That's pretty much what I was saying. Basically, if a person says, "I want to play a 4 color humans deck in Modern," and then builds the deck from scratch without looking at any Humans lists online to avoid netdecking, they'll probably be able to build a deck that is capable of winning some games. After that, they'll try to make their deck better so that it wins more often by taking out cards that aren't as effective and replacing them with other ones. Once that person gets the deck to the point where they can't think of any more possible changes they could make to the deck and then looked at netdeck human lists online, they'll probably find that their list is really similar to a netdeck that has already been developed for the archetype. At that point, someone may accuse them of "netdecking" even though they didn't look at any other lists to develop their deck.

That's why I don't think that netdecking is inherently a negative thing that should be scorned, because a netdeck started off as an original deck list that people liked enough to work together to refine to the point where is wins often enough that it could possibly win a tournament. If there isn't already a list for the particular archetype you are using, then congrats, your list will likely be considered the netdeck version if it gets posted online, particularly if it managed to top a tournament. Then people who also want to win will take that deck and tweak it to suit their own meta.

Copying and using a netdeck doesn't make you an inherently better player or guarantee you more wins though. There are a lot of other play skills and judgment calls that you have to be able to utilize in a game. If a player doesn't have those, then it can be kind of like handing someone a chainsaw and then watching them try to cut down a tree by swinging it like an axe.

I assumed the guy you mentioned earlier was in your playgroup, and you were the one who had been talking about netdecking. Point stands tho, I guess. No point in calling someone out for a totally part of the game.

Glad we're coming to a bit of a consensus here on the bigger picture.

SaberTech: just one small nitpick...pretty sure humans is 5c

@ DragonGodKing90 I am just going by the Modern deck titles listed on mtgdecks. The top deck I see is listed as 4c but it looks like it does runs all 5. I guess the original archetype was just 4c but they have are now going with 5 without bothering to change the name.

Anyway, sorry for sidetracking a bit there JMCraig. And thank you DragonGodKing90 for the discussion. It was a topic that I was thinking about and you gave me a good chance to try and organize my thoughts and see how well I could explain them.

So with Cloudstone Curio out of the deck, do you think that puts cards like Peregrine Drake, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, and Kozilek, Butcher of Truth under scrutiny? One of the major reasons to include them as a top end to begin with was because of how they are able to combo with Curio, so how effective is their role now considering that they don't work with Kiki?

There are still a lot of ways for the deck to bounce them back to your hand multiple times. On a number of occasions I've gone off with Ancestral Statue, cast Ulamog, bounced it back to my hand with Shrieking Drake, cast Ulamog again, bounced it back with the Statue, then cast it a third time. Exiling 6 permanent in one go is usually adequate for clearing the way to kill a player with Animar.

On the down side though, the Eldrazi are awkward to get in an opening hand. Are there cheaper options that aren't as reliant on the Statue to be viable earlier in the game?

All three cards are still great in the deck, but since the lack of the Curio removes a number of the lines of play that they were normally a part of I figure that it is at least worth throwing the question out there for consideration.

And as another thought, does Spellseeker make Grapeshot a viable inclusion in the deck? It allows 3/4 of your 3 CMC tutor creatures to be able to fetch up a win-con after going off with the Statue, and with the number of spells Animar can cast on a non-combo turn the Grapeshot would still make a decent removal option for clearing out annoying creatures like Hushwing Gryff that would otherwise be tough for Animar to get rid of.

And just to clarify in regards to my previous comment, yes, I know Peregrine Drake still works with Kiki. I was focusing more on the Eldrazi with that comment and phrased it awkwardly.

You know, I was just throwing the Grapeshot idea out there as a possibility, but I'm starting to think that it might actually be a reasonable option.

The strongest argument that I can think of at the moment is that by including Grapeshot in the deck you turn Spellseeker into a tutor that is capable of helping you get BOTH Ancestral Statue and a win-con, potentially even all in one turn if you also have a cantrip creature in hand.

With Animar in play with 3+ counters on it: Cast Spellseeker to get Worldly Tutor. ==> Cast Worldly tutor before the beginning of your next turn to put the Statue on top of your deck. ==> Draw the Statue and cast it 120+ times, then use the Statue to bounce the Spellseeker to your hand. ==> Cast Spellseeker to tutor for Grapeshot, then cast the Grapeshot for game.

With a cantrip creature in hand you can speed the whole process up by 1 turn. This is about the same as if you were to cast and activate Survival of the Fittest twice to discard two creatures and grab both the Statue and Walking Ballista.

Grapeshot would suffer from only having one card in the deck that can tutor for it, much like the issue with Cloudstone Curio. Unlike the Curio; Grapeshot it cheaper to cast, has utility on its own, deals with Hushwing Gryff even without any other spells cast that turn, and is part of a tutor chain that also includes tutoring for Ancestral Statue.

I think all of that at least makes it worth testing out.

So I've sometimes considered running Bolt/Rapid Hybridization/Pongify in that slot, as a 1CMC removal option. Seeker makes that a whole lot more compelling, and makes Grapeshot the obvious choice for that slot.

So my question is, why not just run Reckless Fireweaver? Grapeshot is at best another Animar+Statue outlet, and fireweaver can be tutored by almost everything in the deck. the only reason I dont play him now is that we dont really NEED another outlet.

So if we want to consider grapeshot instead, what we get it (good) situational creature removal and turning Seeker into a wincon. The downside is that there are plenty of games where its basically dead. a 2CMC sometimes-bolt isnt worth running if bolt itself isnt, despite being tutorable by one of our 12+ tutors. Not when the other 11 can get you a different wincon.

In my opinion, this is a question of playing a card that does two jobs pretty well vs. a card that does one job really well. and for what its worth, Im not convinced we really need another card to do that job.

Could never see cutting Curio, it's so easy to get it out - Especial with Trophy Mage

Spellseeker is so dang good. What do you normally search for with it?

I still cant justify running a single-use tutor to enable an expensive combo when we have access to much better options. just add a few counterspells and tutors to make the Statue line smoother. I would also look into swapping the kiki combo into those slots too, for all the reasons mentioned above.

Seeker is typically there for a tutor or counterspell. we have access to Glimpse too, but I've never pulled it in a game yet bc the alternative are so great!

Reckless Fireweaver only triggers off of an artifact entering the battlefield though, so it is only useful when you have Ancestral Statue. Sure, any of the tutors that can get creatures could get it, but it is only of any use in one particular situation. It's not even like Purphoros, God of the Forge, which can trigger off of any of your creatures entering the battlefield.

In comparison, Grapeshot also requires Ancestral to be a win-con, but still has utility on its own. The reason why I like it is because it gives you a line of inevitability off of just one tutor. The only other tutors in the deck that have that same inevitability are Imperial Recruiter and Survival of the Fittest.

Survival of the fittest: Discard a creature card for Statue, combo with Animar, then discard the Statue to get Walking Ballista for the win.

Imperial Recruiter: Get Kiki, copy the Recruiter, get Pestermite, combo with Kiki

With Grapeshot in the deck, Spellseeker gets the same sort of "either deal with this line of play or I win" factor, offering up the possibility of a turn 4 kill:

Turn 1) Land + mana dork. Turn 2) Land + Animar. Turn 3) Land + 1 drop creature + 1-2 drop creature + Spellseeker to get Worldly Tutor. You should have 1 land left to cast Worldly Tutor before the start of your next turn to put the Statue on top. Turn 4) Draw Statue, pay 1 to cast it, then cast it 120+ times for free. Use Statue to return Spellseeker, then recast Spellseeker to get Grapeshot and win.

If you are going to focus the deck on Ancestral Statue as your primary means of winning, I think that such a clean line of play is beneficial to the deck.

On the topic of Purphoros, with Earthcraft and Cloudstone Curio out of the deck he has kind of been relegated to a backup win-con in case Walking Ballista is rendered unavailable. There are less ways to tutor for him and in fringe cases he doesn't work as well as the Ballista because you can't do stuff like discard Statue to Survival of the Fittest to tutor for Purphoros and still win. You aren't likely to win a pod with just occasional damage from Purphoros, although him and Shrieking Drake can put pressure on an Ad Nauseam or Necropotence player.

I see how Seeker can be a 1-card win over two turns, but can't you also use it to get a 1CMC tutor after being bounced or Glimpse to dig Purph/Ballista. It's a turn slower, but you dont need to run a 2CMC sometimes-dead card. I think my main issue really is the 2CMC, which is pretty rough.

Now Purph actually does seem like a viable cut if you want to run Grapeshot. I run ballista and the pair of Enchantresses and rarely need the least-tutorable fourth option. This is prob the slot i'd test it in.

Isn't having to wait that extra turn more of a hassle than the mana cost of Grapeshot? At 2 mana it still fits into a 4th turn win, and that's taking into account possibly failing to make a fourth land drop.

I'm purposefully not taking the enchantress effects into consideration because I'm trying to work out the plays that require the fewest cards. Bouncing and recasting Spellseeker to get Glimpse only works if I used a card other than Statue to bounce back Spellseeker. If I bounce Spellseeker back with the Statue, then the Statue is stuck on the battlefield and can't be used to draw cards.

And even if you were to tutor up a second 1 CMC tutor after recasting Spellseeker, if you wanted to draw that creature off your library on the same turn then you would need to cast a cantrip creature as well. So you are either having to wait a turn, risk discarding Ballista off of Gamble, or you'll need to have a cantrip creature in hand. A tutor and a cantrip creature would cost at least 2 colored mana, the same as if you had just tutored up Grapeshot, while also requiring an extra card for the whole process.

And in regards to Purphoros, yeah, it's a bit weird how it works out but the 4 CMC creatures are some of the most awkward ones in the deck to tutor for. And when you are tutoring for a 4 CMC creature, it's almost always Statue unless you are grabbing the Archmage for some protection. Purphoros and the Vizier exist in this weird limbo where I hardly ever see them because when I could tutor for them there is almost always something more important to get instead.

I mean... I would jokingly suggest Storm Entity for lols...

Now onto Grapeshot, it feels meh on it's own, Spellseeker is a bit of an interesting synergy, and I think O'd test it out. I don't think I will disregard it though, as it is a fast-ish line of win. Too bad Animar isn't in white for Eladamri's Call, that'd be insane. As is with Worldly Tutor, its cool enough for me to run playtests with.

Alright, I'll give it a shpt. still feels like a dead slot sometimes, but it may surprise me.

*I'd

@ JMCraig lol, you sound so beleaguered in that last comment. You don't have to run it if you don't want too, I've just been in a mood for debate over the past few days and I thought the whole Grapeshot thing was worth discussing. Sorry if I've been a pain.

I'm putting my money where my mouth is and included Grapeshot in my own deck to test it out. Spellseeker isn't as great in my list because I don't own copies of Sylvan Tutor or Gamble. I took out Birthing Pod, Zealous Conscripts and an Island for Spellseeker, Grapeshot, and Pact of Negation just to see how things work out.

My current results are that I don't actually see Grapeshot much. I had it in an opening hand during one test, and it offered the possibility of sniping a couple mana dorks if I wanted to cast it early to slow opponents down. Choosing to hold on to it, it ended up being a backup win-con because having Ancient Ziggurat in play meant that I wasn't able to squeeze out both the Grapeshot and an Eldritch Evolution for Statue in the same turn. You could blame that on Grapeshot for not being a creature, but I've always had issues with Ancient Ziggurat due to those sorts of situations so I guess you could cast judgment either way.

Other than that though, I haven't actually drawn into Grapeshot in any of my tests thus far. It is the same thing like with all the other cards in the deck that aren't part of the usual tutor chains, they tend to end up in statistical limbo where they only seem to pop up on odd occasions unless you specifically tutor for them. On the upside, never drawing Grapeshot means that it is never a dead draw.

Brutalizer Exarch has been putting in work though. It's become the card that I tend to get the most often with Fierce Empath. I should have taken your advice on that one sooner.

Lol, I'm always happy to test new stuff. Sometimes it's optimistic bullshit (pls ignore the foil Ironshell Beetle and Kujar Seedsculptor in my binder) but other times its like Kiki and I end up loving it. Or Brutalizer Exarch, for example, who just plain ended up be awesome for me too!

Your issue with Grapeshot (currently in my cart at TCGP, for what its worth!) kinda confirms my suspicions. The fact that its one of those things you have to draw into is a little concerning. That's why i ended up cutting Earthcraft/Curio. Without support from our tutors/protection/conditional mana producers it becomes a little awkward in the deck. We're straining the upper limit of the number of noncreature spells in the deck as-is. I'd caution against adding a new card to the deck just because Spellseeker is so dank; she'd be playable even with just Worldly and Pact in the deck. In fact, she does a great job of covering for you if you don't want to pay the bullshit inflated price for Sylvan.

In general, my goal lately has been to trim out bad draws and conditional effects (awkward combos, narrow hate, overcosted ramp) in favor of more low-ceiling but broadly-applicable redundant effects. Less flashy but more consistent. So i'll def want to try Grapeshot out in my build, but I'd just caution against adding the deck's new most-marginal line at the expense of a slot that could go towards better support for our 2+ really synergistic lines.

That said, I really like the other tweaks you're trying. Conscripts was a little too awkward in my testing (you're totally right about tutoring 4-5 CMC guys, esp with non-recruitable stats) and Gilded Drake filled the non-combo aspects of that role just fine. Pod had all those same non-creature, medium-CMC issues. I think Pact will def come in handy tho, esp if your pod is getting savvy about when to nuke Animar or trying to deal with your combo pieces. I would also recommend Force and Misstep if you're not already using them; they've been invaluable as my meta gets better (seriously, Breakfast Hulk is a bullshit deck and you need all the interaction you can get).

As always, i have a lot of fun on here discussing the deck. i think we're all learning a lot from one another's experience. Like you said before, i think we're starting to converge on a really tight list, even if there's room for a few preference/meta picks.

I've been testing grapeshot in the list against a few tier 1-1.5 strategies, and tbh I feel it isn't very powerful. Spellseeker brings a wincon feel to it, but it's a line that in many games is too slow. I would rather gamble up a Walking Ballista and save the slot if that line was reasonable in game. Cool in idea, but lacks promise. That's what I learned at least.

My main thought behind Grapeshot was that one of the main goals of Spellseeker was to grab you a tutor to get Ancestral Statue. That is its primary purpose, with its secondary role being to grab counter magic if you are ready to combo.

I was looking to see if Spellseeker, after getting Statue, could pull double duty and get a win-con as well. I haven't done extensive testing yet (10-12 games thus far), and I've yet to play a game where I have drawn into Spellseeker. Heck, I somehow haven't drawn into Imperial Recruiter in any of those games either. So yeah, all I'm working from is basically initial impressions here.

I picked Pact of Negation out of the other two options because Spellseeker can't get FoW and Mental Misstep is more conditional than Pact. But almost every time I've had Pact in hand and am ready to combo off I've not had enough mana on board to actually pay the cost if my combo failed despite having the Pact in hand. I was never in the position to use the Pact to stop someone else from comboing off without losing on my next turn, and I was in an "all or nothing" position if I used the Pact to defend my combo. Am I just missing some sort of setup that other people do to make the card safer to play? It tends to sit in my hand a lot.

I playtest a lot against a Flash Hulk/Hermit Druid type deck, so I can certainly appreciate what some free counterspells can bring to Animar, but I can't seem to beat my horrible luck with those cards. Is Mental Misstep the better option to run?

They’re both good, honestly. All three, Force included, are a little situational, but when they work they’re life savers. So they’re dead sometimes, but that’s a bit of a tax you play for their relevance in the meta. I would definitely recommend being a little more proactive with the pact tho; it’s rare to face more than one counterspell. And if you’re dead set in being able to cover the cost, you can often drop a dork before comboing off or wait an extra turn for a fresh land drop. There’s a control deck in my pod that really pressures me to have counter backup, so I may be biased, but I think having access to a good counterspell or two changes how you play. Worth testing.

Oh, I'm not shy about casting Pact when I'm trying to combo off. I'll use it if there's a chance I'll net a win. I just find that it has to sit in my hand a lot instead of being viable to stop my opponents' combo plays. Like I said, I test a lot against Flash Hulk. Pact just isn't worth casting when the opponent is comboing off on turn 2. I have to lean pretty heavily on Scavenging Ooze whenever I can in that matchup.

Do you think that Protean Hulk will get banned again, or do you think the rules committee doesn't care enough about the competitive scene to bother trying to regulate it?

Actually, now that I think about it, the fact that I test against Flash Hulk so much is probably why I'm willing to argue for a card like Grapeshot. It gives me a way to kill an early Hermit Druid, can clear out mana dorks that can be used as blockers to buy time against Animar, and it provides one more line to potentially win on the 4th turn, upping the chance of pulling off a win before Flash Hulk does. I guess that puts it into the Meta Pick category for me.