BTW, thoughts on sensei's divining top?

for sure man!

Top (and Mystic Remora too) is a good piece of filtering/draw for a lot of decks, but we can't reliably cast it early game without using mana that should've been spent on creatures. Similarly, holding up mana to top in the opponent's end phase is a common play that doesnt really work for us either. we can usually only afford to soend mana on non-creatures when we've already cast all our creatures and need to refill our hands, which is when something like Clamp/Dark Dweller becomes really effective.

generally, Animar's early-mid game is used to cast the commander and get him to 4 counters, so there's not much room for noncreature spells.

Indeed, keeping the focus on creatures is the core key in Animar decks, the much the merrier. I consider Dark-dweller oracle useful,we run a lot of place-on-top tutors, by sacrificing a creature we could play an infinite ballista from the top to machine-gun everybody. Even if you dont know which is the top card, with enough mana and creatures get a land card, you have the chance of playing it (If you haven´t play a land this turn). then, if you manage to access infinite mana you may be able to play the entire deck or just dig into your library for a ballista/purphoros.

Pretty much my read on the card as well. It's good in the same circumstances that Clamp is; mainly when we have a good boardstate but ran of gas or got all our wincons countered. I'm liking it a lot so far.

Yeah, I already order it. That card has "storm" written all over it. Now it's time to wait for the commander 2018 spoilers, maybe we'll get a nice toy to play with in animar as well.

Question for other Animar players out there: is anyone trying out Generous patron? I initially misread the Support ability and assumed you could only support your own guys, but in fact you can use it to draw if you just give away counters (sorry, never drafted triple Khans!)

That meanes that in the early game she can act like a super bond beetle, jumping Animar from 2 to 5 counters (meh) but later on, once people's boards develop, she will effectively draw 2 on ETB by dumping her counters on an opposing Snapcaster or Bob or something. ETB: draw 2 is super strong, especially at 3CMC.

So the question is, does she play out as flexibly as she looks? or will you just be forced into using sub-optimal modes based on the opponents' boards? is it just a meta pick based on the number of creatures in your meta?

I like the patron a lot. I consider it better than a lot of other options. Try dropping another card advantage piece for it and I doubt it will disappoint.

The major downside i see is that you really need 2+ opposing creatures for it to be solid card advantage, which is rarely available in a fullon cEDH meta. dorks help with this a lot (and giving them counters is pretty irrelevant) but even against a dork heavy deck its not guaranteed to see 2+ creatures by turn 4. So it'll need to be tested a bit, but its def an interesting option.

Oh also, another things that's been on my mind: was I too quick to dismiss Momir Vig?The guy is basically a 5CMC wincon all by himself, and in the worst case scenarios, he can scry us into gas no problem.

I initially found him to bulky (2 mana to cast, needs 3 counters) but he's actually a pretty fantastic piece of inevitability for the deck. after all, Brutalizer exceeded my expectations in an amazing way, and he's arguably a worse version of Vig, given the relatively small number of times i actually use him as removal.

I think it's time to test the old guy out again; he may not be fast, but he does address Animar's main weakness: running out of gas.

JMCraig, what is getting cut for Momir Vig?

Regarding Generous Patron, the way the Support mechanic works means that you can only put one +1/+1 counter on a single creature. You wouldn't be able to put two counters on Animar with the trigger.

Brutalizer Exarch being a worse version of Vig in the deck is debatable, given that I've found it really handy that the Exarch has a CMC of 6 and can be tutored up with Fierce Empath. And the Exarch can tutor for a creature on its own, while Vig requires you to have a green creature in hand.

I still think countermagic, removal, and Torpor Orb/Tocatli Honor Guard/Hushwing Gryff outweigh running out of gas in terms of biggest problems. Well here's my take on Momir Vig, Simic Visionary, he is big card draw, and tutors combo pretty consistently, but is a huge target, and I believe to be too slow to use.

Not much else here, but how do I explain that Thorn of Amethyst isn't good in Animar, some guy kept saying it was and I just can't.

I'd prob cut Ainok. The Pod guy usually prefers Gryff anyway.

The support this is a solid point; so it'd really need 2 opposing creatures to work, which is gross.

Brutalizer may still be better, yeah. doesn't mean that a 2-mana repeatable tutor isnt playable tho. def something i want to test.

lol at thorn: why play one piece of stax? its easy to beat one piece of stax, esp a fairly loose one, and esp if the opponent is breaking his own tempo to cast it. we have no way to deploy it consistently or benefit from it in a major way, so there's no reason to run it.

His arguement went way beyond my understanding of logic, something like "Animar decks want to make their creatures want to cost less, so since Thorn of Amethyst does the opposite effect to the opposite type of card, it in turn does exactly what Animar does!"

I couldn't figure it out.

I've occasionally wondered what it would have been like if Animar was a Bant commander instead and had access to white's various Stax options. Getting counters every time a creature is cast would fit the whole "Champion of the Many" theme that Bant has and would be an easy way to break parity under your own tax effects.

I suppose that even now you could build a tax and land destruction variant of Animar if you want everyone at your casual table to hate you.

But yeah, as it stands right now, there's no real point of running cards like Thorn in Animar. If you want to be cheeky you could try cloning an opponent's Stax cards with Phyrexian Metamorph or Phantasmal Image though.

Well i rarely say this, but thats just wrong. he's welcome to play what he wants, but Amethyst is shitty in the deck!

Saber: yeah i've also sometimes considered a more controlling build. we can use stuff like Tidespout, Vorinclex and Winnower pretty damn well, and a beefy midrange plan would work pretty well. That said tho, after playing the deck as long as i have and trying some of those cards, the fast combo approach is just plain better. could be fun to brainstorm some time, but i wouldnt play it seriously.

Yeah, but how do I get that across to him, like at first I was super happy because a new player wanted to play Animar, but... yeah I think you get the point. I think he thinks Animar is stompy, and someone must have told him that stompy wasn't competitive, and so he saw the first competitive decklist for some real stax deck (Tana/Tymna Blood Pod or something, idk), saw Thorn of Amethyst and thought he fully understood everything that Animar was.

At least thats what I got, but how do I explain that Animar is a fast-paced creature-storm combo deck with large access to ramp and insanely fast wins, but isn't stax. I don't think he even knows what stax is, let alone storm or cedh-combo.

@ SynergyBuild Well, I guess the guy technically isn't wrong if you interpret what he is saying as "Animar wants its spells to cost less than the opponent's spells." With that interpretation, he may be thinking that making your opponents' spells cost more is equivalent to making your spells cost less by getting another counter on to Animar. It's not exactly the most efficient or synergistic way to go about it though.

Making your opponents spells cost 4 more doesn't make you win with Ancestral Statue, so... yeah idk.

And and a card giving one counter on Animar isn't exactly worth it. Memnite is infinitly better if that is all you want.

@ SynergyBuild Yep. And it's in understanding those nuances and synergies that you can hear a statement like "Animar wants its spells to cost less than its opponents' spells" and can realize just how loose the other person's understanding of Animar is. It's the difference in experience that shows through when deck building, like when new players think that Animar is more about playing a bunch of big creatures than about the advantages that are accumulated by playing a bunch of low CMC creatures.

Def the best way for him to learn is to play it out. let him proxy it, run it for a few games mixed into a more stock list, and see how it goes. if he plays a few games with your guidance, im sure he'll get a feel for what the decks REALLY about.

and when in doubt, ask him what i always ask myself when i'm considering a card for the deck: "is this better than statue? does it help me cast statue?"

Thanks guys for the suggestions, despite them having nothing to do with this deck in particular, but for a more on-topic discussion, Pir, Imaginative Rascal feels better than Hardened Scales, but I don't know, I like that it is a creature, so it is more tutorable, but you probably would use tutors for Hardened Scales, so I don't know, thoughts?

Scales is a debatable inclusion in the deck in the first place. We don't mreally need the extra counters to enable our combo, but i like it because it gives us a solid beatdown plan and helps cast eldrazi in grindier games.

The problem is, that effect loses a lot of its utility if you have to use it a turn or two after casting animar. if we have 2 counters already, it'd be better to make two normal casts (tutor, protection, draw etc) then just win. so pass from me, personally