Good points. I've seen Crypto in more big-creature value Animar decks and it does a good job as slowish ramp. It's just a little clunky for full-speed combo, as you say.

In the official Hour of Devastation spoilers WotC has spoiled Champion of Wits, and I was wondering if you have seen it yet? I like the card in general and was trying to decided if it had a place in Animar. Unfortunately, considering that it is at the same cost as Sea Gate Oracle, I think the Oracle is still the better fit since it digs two and replaces itself with a card, whereas the Champion only loots you two cards instead of replacing itself. I do like that you can kill the Champion off with Skullclamp to draw two cards and get it into the graveyard in case you ever have the spare mana for its Eternalize ability though.

I think the card is probably better off in a deck with a strong graveyard theme, but what's your opinion? Do you think it is worth having in Animar just to have some extra power to dig for what you need?

You and I had the same thought. Looks cool, but ultimately a little too much mana for no card advantage. The flashback thing is neat but way too late to matter. Skull lamp is neat but not worth the card selection you get out of Oracle. I could see running this in a really fast Animar deck, but I'd rather have better draw or answers.

Well look what the cat dragged in!! Glad to see your upkeeping still.

Late, but I do agree with the no GSZ and Dryad Arbor. I think I cut those pre-primer(I honestly cant remember.) Unfortunately our ban league has decided to tear down Ancestral Statue. I still have the big curio line, though!

Unfortunately, I have not had time to sit at the table to fish some games. Looking forward to add VoM to the list. ProbAbly replacing carpet for the time being as Islands are drying out.

CoW was probably the most disappointing thing WoTC has made in regards to making a better Familiar.

Well just checking in. Hope you have a great holiday

I meant recruiter.

You too man! Bummer Statue got the Axe in your league, thats pretty backbreaking. However, it does mean the deck is good enough to scare people!

I've been pretty lukewarm on Amonkhet so far other than Future-Sight-Snek, but the new Crucible-Snek may be interesting. With those two, Lotus, and Beastcaller, we've got a bit of a Snakey family going!

I've been mulling over a meta inclusion and I wanted to run it by you. I've been thinking about the inclusion of Manglehorn in Animar.

My line of thought is that Animar is a deck primarily focused on speed to end the game due to having little interaction or protection. There are potentially faster combos in cEDH, such as Hermit Druid and Protean Hulk, that have the benefit of running countermagic packages to back them up but aren't necessarily going to win turn 1-2 on a consistent basis. However, there are lots of decks that can potentially compete with Animar's goals of trying to win on turn 3-4, and that is where I see Manglehorn enter the argument.

To win quickly, a lot of Animar's competition needs the mana acceleration options offered by the mana-rock package of Grim Monolith, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, and Lion's Eye Diamond. With the exception of LED (which is unfortunate due to its combo uses), having Manglehorn on the board drastically devalues the advantages that these mana rocks offer Animar's opponents. Grim Monolith and Mana Vault become unplayable if they enter tapped, and denying opponents the use of their 0 mana rocks the turn they cast them can net Animar that 1 more turn it may need to beat its competition the that combo finish line.

The fact that Manglehorn is a creature that can contribute to putting counters on Animar while also acting as spot removal for artifacts is icing on the cake. With the introduction of Breya, Etherium Shaper, Aetherflux Reservoir, Paradox Engine, and the Dramatic Scepter combo to cEDH, the value of artifact removal is just that much higher now.

Animar lost a good chunk of speed and consistency when the format shifted to the Vancouver Mulligan rule, and I've been toying with a couple Stax inclusions in Animar to compensate. With the traditionally greedy mana bases in cEDH, alongside the presence of 4-color commanders in the upper-tiers of competitive play, I think that cards like Manglehorn and Magus of the Moon are at least worth consideration as strong sideboard options, if not mainboard worthy. Granted, I make more use of basic lands in my list than you do, so Magus of the Moon and even Blood Moon are more appealing inclusions for me. In my deck, they can even act as mana-fixing to make Kiki-Jiki easier to play.

Anyway, I just wanted to get your opinion on Manglehorn. Do you think it's worth a slot?

Mangelhorn is a very cool meta tech piece against Ad Naus and a few other artifact-ey decks. I'd be slightly concerned that the main artifacts worth hitting come in on the opponent's combo turn, making our creature-speed answers less relevant tho.

Interestingly, I began playing Animar as a midrangey deck with some potent stuff like the Green and Blue Praetors, Deadeye, Terrastodon designed to compensate for Animar's lack of speed and make it more resilient. Adding some spicy anti-meta tech could make a surprisingly solid deck.

Here's the issue tho. Animar never had the tools to play a reactive game at creature-speed when compared to more blue-focused strategies with access to cheaper, more flexible counters and disruption. Playing midrange at sorcery speed with some light stax is a better strategy for someone like Riku or Alesha, whereas in Animar you'll end up with either a hand full of uncountable bulk or a weak Animar with no counters nor cheap creatures to get them. Animar really just wants to be played fast.

So the real question is, can Animar keep up woth the best decks in the format like Teferi, Thras, or Tazri? I think he can be very competitive at any level up to true tier-1 stuff, but ultimately ends up being a little inconsistent and fragile. Adding some midrangey tech may help ameliorate this, but ultimately my experience has shown that slowing the deck down too much actively hurts the gameplan too much to be worth it. Im very curious to hear about your testing tho!

My interest in Manglehorn has more to do with its passive effect than its role as spot removal. I see its effect as basically setting your opponents back by one turn before they can combo, due to making them have to wait one turn before they can use their artifact mana ramp. Potentially giving myself one more turn before my opponents can combo off is really appealing, and Animar still gets a counter off it.

As for Magus of the Moon, it is something that I am just testing out. I've found a lot of instances where it has been effective at bringing my opponents to a halt, but the number of mana dorks and signets that other decks run make the effectiveness of Magus situational. My current manabase means that I barely feel the Magus's effects, while a lot of decks seem to stumble once you turn off the fixing that their dual lands and fetches offer. Right now though, I would probably relegate it to a sideboard card if sideboards are allowed (although in that case I would be running Living Wish maindeck).

To note though, I don't see either Manglehorn or Magus of the Moon as reactive cards in Animar, because if nothing else they still give Animar a counter. I would cast Manglehorn even if there wasn't an artifact to destroy. Slowing down my opponent's artifact mana ramp by one turn by forcing artifacts to ETB tapped is worth it in my opinion because mana artifacts are one of the major ways that other cEDH decks, particularly the ones that don't have green, are able to keep up to Animar's ramping potential.

My first draft of Animar was also pretty midrange, now that I look back on it. I built it to partner with an Azami deck for some 2-Headed Giant EDH tournaments that a local store was hosting. I chose Animar for a number of reasons: I liked how cards such as Peregrine Drake could help ramp my partner, that I could build interlocking combos between the two decks, and that Animar didn't need artifact ramp (because the tournaments used a combined Regular + Duel Commander banned list). I dropped almost all of the midrange stuff after the mulligan change, because I couldn't sculpt my opening hand anymore and shuffle away the higher cost stuff. I kept the Kiki-Jiki package though, because I still think the deck needs a solid plan B if your opponents keep removing or countering Animar.

Hmm, yeah, I think initially going midrange is a common approach to Animar; happened to me too. Its also why im a little resistant to adding stax-ier stuff.

I do think theres some value in playing Magus and Manglehorn as incidental anti-meta hate, im just mildly concerned that theyll be dead 3-drops sometimes, which is why most of the potentially dead cards I play are 2-drops (Ooze and Drake) or often just free (skite and revoker). I could definitely see reworking those four slots to fit the cards you suggest though; its a really solid meta call.

Maybe I'm too afraid of higher CMC stuff from playing Naus!

Yeah, I certainly understand the casting cost concern. Putting in the Magus of the Moon didn't feel so bad to me because I took out Rishkar for it. As great as Rishkar is mechanically in Animar, in my testing I just found that by the time he came down he didn't really matter. The extra mana he offered was't needed the turns where I could play him, which was a little frustrating because I could picture in my head all the ways he should have been good. Every time I played him I was wishing that he either drew me cards or was just something with more impact on the game.

I've also been meaning to ask; when you goldfish your deck, what is the turn you find your deck comboing off on the most often?

Generally I goldfish a turn 4-5 win around 75% of the time. we were planning on including a proper histogram with this info in the primer but didnt get around to it. So, not the fastest deck out there but still very threatening. also, its capable of keeping up a lot of pressure through multiple attempts after the first, which gives it some staying power.

I do still enjoy Rish in my deck, but then Im a little more mana-hungry.

If i could identify a real issue with the build so far, it'd be good repeatable draw, which i think addresses both of our experiences: mana and interaction would be less stressed if we could draw into more of it!

There's a blue/green creature in the set after Hour of Devastation that lets you draw a card for each creature you control when it ETB. We don't know how much it costs to cast yet, but if it's 4 mana I think it could replace the Slithermuse that a lot of people run in Animar. If it costs 5 mana it may be harder to include but the draw power it offers is still really tempting. If it costs 6 mana I would be reluctant to include it despite the draw power it offers, but that may just be me. Having the ability to play your entire hand and then refill it all in one turn would both give Animar another much needed means of mass card draw, and alleviate some of the stress of playing around wrath spells. Having that effect on a creature that can be tutored for and bounced back to hand to be replayed makes it that much better.

And thank you for that turn/win average, I was worrying a little that my build may be a bit on the slow side but it seems to put out similar results. I find the general result is that the deck combos off the second turn after the turn you cast Animar if no one disrupts you, so if Animar comes down turn 2 you tend to combo off turn 4, or if you cast Animar turn 3 it usually combos off turn 5.

You are right though, Animar does have a lot of resilience in its ability to get back into the game if its first shot at comboing off gets stopped. In the face of a lot of other combo decks that rely heavily on 1-2 cards to win, Animar really shines in how many different options it has to steal the game. That's probably the aspect of Animar that I love the most, because I get bored of decks that try to make the same line of play every game. Animar's web of interconnecting combo lines helps make every game feel different, and unlike other combo decks you have the option of just beating face if the combos aren't working out for you.

Have been reading through this page and the primer on reddit you guys posted. Were both great reads have been working on more of a 75 percent build, mostly because I cannot afford a imperial recruiter at the moment and other cards like gaea's cradle/abu duals most other things are within range. Was wondering what you thought of my list if you have some time would appreciate some input. I mostly play against decks such as gitrog, mizzix storm, jhiora of the ghitu, kraaj combo and a few other random decks less often. The sideboard I have on my list were all cards I was sort of considering throwing in, any help would be great, thanks.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-07-17-PZt-animar/

That's awesome, and much appreciated! Looking at your list, you can probably want to move away from the "goodstuff" ie Birthing Pod kit,, Selvala, and Oracle (nice synergy with Vizier though). Selvala isn't really ever gonna draw you cards, and the birthing pod line is clunky and brings a lot of dead cards to the deck. I would suggest replacing these with more ramp in Wild Cantor and Tinder Wall.

The sideboard stuff can probably be moved to Wants (just nit-picking). Most of the stuff can be dropped aside from Cradle, Reclamation Sage, Phantasmal Image(budget Drake).

Trust us when we say focus on Ancestral Statue. The deck runs like a finely tuned engine and feels great. Well that is all I got for now. I am sure JMCraig has more input than I.

JMCraig, I do periodic checks of this thread. Am I wrong that you dropped Crop Rotation and Gilded Drake for Edric, Spymaster of Trest and Dosan the Falling Leaf?

Yeah, I'm currently testing a few new things. My meta has shifted more towards spellslinger decks like Naus+DDay and Baral, so stuff like Drake is less relevant, and Edric becomes way less risky. Im currently liking Dosan a lot, even over the new Serpopard, bc of his ability to force the instant-speed decks to play fair. He's also a version of Caverns I can fetch with creature tutors, making Crop less relevant.

Notably, Manglehorn also disappointed me in my testing, bc as a post-animar card, all the good artifact ramp has usually already come down, mitigating his usefulness over something like Rec Sage. Ainok still holds this spot due to Morph synergies (free Animar counter, Cloudstone combo) and ability to kill Torpor Orb.

These two slots are still in flux, so expect a few more little tweaks. I'm focusing on Animar a lot lately now that I feel comfortable with Zur, so i'll be doing my best to get him up to date with the new meta at my shop.

I've been testing a lot against Hermit Druid Necrotic Ooze combo decks similar to this one: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/a-heart-three-sizes-too-small-turn-1-win-copy/ (I can't seem to get the hyperlink using the deck name to work).

Against decks like it, Gilded Drake is still relevant, alongside Scavenging Ooze and Phyrexian Revoker, because Animar needs a way to stop Hermit Druid before it activates. Normally though, if the Hermit Druid deck gets one of its fast starts Animar tends to just lose unless another deck has an answer. Animar is pretty consistent in comboing off on turns 4-5, but the Hermit Druid deck frequently combos off on turns 2-3. In 1v1 testing, I think the Hermit Druid deck beats Animar about two out of three games.

In group games, the Hermit Druid deck quickly establishes itself as the main threat due to it being able to threaten a win on almost every turn. It is also hindered a bit by all the graveyard hate that is available, which can be beneficial to Animar because those cards don't interfere with Animar's game plan. If everyone is focusing down on the Hermid Druid deck and adjusting their decks to deal with it, Animar can snag wins by being the second most explosive deck at the table and by not being affected by the graveyard hate or cheap counterspells like Swan Song and Flusterstorm.

In 1v1 testing, a lot of the games that my Animar deck won against Hermit Druid were thanks to Magus of the Moon. The Magus only seems to be useful against about 50% of the upper-tier decks, but I've found it good enough to keep as a sideboard card. Hermit Druid finds it extremely difficult to play through, particularly if Hermit Druid hasn't played a mana dork before the Magus comes down. In the match-up, I am often willing to cast the Magus turn 2 off a mana dork instead of Animar, since making my land drops more awkward doesn't matter when I am locking out Hermit Druid from being able to play almost all of its deck.

My list remains unchanged as of right now. I still use Drake since it is a staple in my meta. Most of the decks utilize their commanders as engines, so creature theft is high. I only got a few games in the new league, so far its mainly Ezuri Turns, Edric, Tasigur Seasons Past, Atraxa variants, Zur ,and a few other just goodstuff decks. Probably will look into REB or Pyroblast.

I still think Animar is fine, just has has a lot of heat on it, and can't handle Archenemy very well. With the recent league banning of PoK, and the amount of heat Animar was getting, I have gone back to Breya for a bit.

Yeah, i response to most of this, I think Animar's greatest strength is its resilience to most common hate. "non-creature" is a great phrase to see on an opponent's card, and we have a lot of fantastic ways to dodge common stax/tax/destroy effects. We can essentially play straight past some pods. We're also flexible enough to fit in some toolboxy stuff like Magus or Drake as the meta dictates, which can really give us an edge. The key is tuning those last ~2-5 slots for your specific meta.

The big challenge is in racing other pure combo decks. The necessity of having Animar himself out with about 4 counters before going off means we miss out on a lot of the explosive wins we see from other decks. I would not play this deck 1-v-1 into a T1 combo deck, for example, but i can do well in a pod where the good control/stax decks are fighting the good combo decks but neither has the resources to appropriately address Animar. this is basically what keeps Animar at T2 as opposed to some of the more resilient, well rounded decks.

So doing well with Animar is a matter of picking the right group, knowing your role in the pod, and having the right tech. I'd say the best Animar pilots are the ones who've tested the most different tech and know when to include what. It's something I'm working on every time I play!

With how wide this deck goes I really like Tishana, Voice of Thunder as an extra piece of mass card draw. It might be sub par as it only draws cards when you already have a board presence but it's worth testing I think

Kushala The deck doesn't go that wide with bounce combos and cards like Skullclamp to ditch creatures once they are on the field. A 7 drop to draw some cards is functional but I don't think it's worth it in a competitive combo deck.

I mean, it's fine if you're out of gas but have a full boardstate and a bunch of counters on Animar. but at that point, i'd consider other, less situational and more consistent parity-breakers. For example, Chord of Calling can get you statue from the same board position most of the time, and then you usually win. Or run GSZ and get Fauna Shaman to win next turn. Hell, Bring to Light would even work. And if you want mass card draw that's contingent on board presence, Shared Discovery works just as well if not better most of the time.

Basically I think Tinashe is a bit of a win-more card here that only works when we're already close to winning.

Chandelier - agreed here as well

Ixalan has been a mixed bag for Animar. Tinashe is the only card that the set offers Animar, but it's mediocre at best. The set also came with Rampaging Ferocidon, which may force Animar to play more carefully if it is on the table but probably won't see much play in competitive circles so it's not something Animar will likely have to build around.

The real boon that Ixalan offers Animar is in how Ashes of the Abhorrent may affect the meta. Ashes of the Abhorrent stalls Hermit Druid + Dread Return based combo decks, which are frequently faster at comboing off than Animar is. It also hampers Storm decks that are looking to go off with Yawgmoth's Will. Boonweaver combo decks may look to splash it since it doesn't interfere with their main reanimation plan, and it may also find a spot in dedicated Hate Bear or Zur decks. The more the card sees play, the more hospitable the meta gets for Animar.

Now maybe WotC could print a couple more cEDH worthy Containment Priest style effects to help keep Flash Hulk decks in check.