Is there any practical advantage in using snow or non-snow swamps?

Pseudo-ception I hope you enjoy playing the deck :)

diogo1943 The main reason for running snow-covered lands in most mono-coloured decks is Extraplanar Lens which unfortunately can't be used here... For Belz, Scrying Sheets is the only reason for running them. The utility gained from Scrying Sheets is minimal, in my opinion, but it can be used to dig faster for hate removal or damage mitigation.

godo's ugly cousin :)

so how about that Deadly Rollick?

Was gonna recommend Deadly Rollick, but I don't think there's room for it. Your removal needs to be playable before you can cast Demonlord. However, Meteor Golem needs to be added to the Hate Removal section.

It's possible you've already included it and I just have horrible eyesight, but what do you think about running Koskun Falls ? Its not likely you'll need to worry about the upkeep cost, so it seems like a nice way to stay alive.

Also for the sake of combo protection/politics you could put in Head Games.

Is there any reason for running zoetic cavern? Is there any special interaction I am unaware of, or is it jus to have a blocker if need be?

Sorry to everyone for the long absence I'll reply some of the comments you made :)

Lord0fHam Deadly Rollick is def a card I want to test but I haven't been able to play much. The advantage of the card is that it doesn't cost life, which is a valuable resource for the deck, however we only have the commander up for a very very small fraction of the time because he is sacrifice fodder for Dread Return.

Scott-Spain thank you for the catch! Added to the maybeboard.

BloodyScout I think it's very meta dependent (Koskun Falls), worth adding to the maybeboard for sure. I am not a fan of Head Games but I did add a discard section in the maybeboard and it fits perfectly the theme.

diogo1943 Zoetic Cavern acts as ramp if you couple it with Gemstone Caverns, Ancient Tomb or Peat Bog. For example suppose your opening hand has 5 swamps, Zoetic Cavern and Ancient Tomb. Turn 1: play swamp. Turn 2: play Ancient Tomb and pay 3 mana to play Zoetic Cavern as a morph creature. Turn 3: play a swamp and pay 2 mana to turn your Zoetic Cavern into a land. Turn 4: play a swamp, now you have enough mana for Belz :)

I've seen versions of Belzenlok where people run Stunning Reversal, but I don't belive it works. Doesn't it makes you draw seven when you have no library making you lose tha game right after you stopped yourself from losing?

diogo1943 to be honest I don't know the interaction of the card with an empty or almost empty library... However, even if Stunning Reversal could stop deck-outs I think the card is not very useful (in my version of the deck) because the time you would need this type of effect is after Belz's ETB triggers, and you have no library. At this stage you are very mana starved (having already spent all your mana on casting Belz). The only way you could afford to pay for Stunning Reversal's mana cost is by having Skirge Familiar in play, but if Skirge Familiar is in play you can just go for various attempts to get Necrotic Ooze out and just win the game.

Now this might not have occurred to you, but an alternative line to victory is:

1: belzenlok

2: unmask pitching phantasmagorion

3: pitch skirge familiar, any two black cards barring Nightmare Void & Bone Miser

4: cast hollow one, deep wood legate;

5: dread return skirge familiar

6: discard cards to add {b}{b}{b}{b}{b}

7: cast bone miser

8: discard Kozilek, Butcher of Truth (or Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre)

9: discard Nightmare Void endlessly for unbounded mana (always dredge thanks to bone miser)

10: cycle Razaketh's Rite/Death Pulse / Stir the Sands for unbounded card draw (if anybody knows of a similarly cyclable noncreature, nonland card without cycling to use in place of these that would work great too).

11: now with unbounded mana and your entire deck available to be cast - you can do anything you wish:

ulamog or Scour from Existence all their permanents,

make unbounded creatures (if you used stir the sands)

Play soul spike 10-billion times, etc.

This version needs: Bone miser, phantasmagorion, nightmare void, belz, dread return, skirge familiar, ulamog, phantasmagorion, deepwood legate, hollow one, unmask, a cyclable instant/sorcery

(12 cards)

Whereas the current combo needs:

Phantasmagorion, belz, dread return, skirge familiar, deepwood legate, hollow one, unmask, konrad, skittles, cinderhaze wretch, necrotic ooze, lotus guardian, dread, endling

(14 cards)

Not only is this 2 cards more efficient, you are able to perform this through more star pieces such as Damping Matrix, hexproof/otherwise troublesome stax that affects activated abilities.

This contains 4 cards outside of the original combo and can likely be reduced further with some ingenuity. Please let me know what you think @Bazzul

Some alternatives to cycling cards mentioned above: Brainspoil, Nihilistic Glee, Oath of Lim-Dul, Peer into the Abyss (can be looped with soul spike hard cast to gain infinite mana and life provided you have enough other cards to discard each time as one soul spike gives you 2 "halves" of life to pay each time (1 life + 4 = 5 / 2 = 3 / 2 = 1). So even pitching like 8 cards, you make 16 mana per "cycle", spending 14.

CyborgAeon Thank you for your post! It's indeed a very interesting idea... It's very similar to the The Gitrog Monster cEDH combo with dredge, I think the combo is better explained by paraphrasing the description from the Gitrog primer (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/gitrog-land-combo/)

With Bone Miser and a "discard outlet" (Skirge Familiar) on the battlefield and a Nightmare Void in our hand, we first discard two shufflers ( Kozilek, Butcher of Truth + Dread for example) to gain 2 black mana (Skirge Familiar). They are both shuffled into the deck. Then we discard Nightmare Void to the outlet to gain 1 black mana (Skirge Familiar). Nightmare Void hits the graveyard, causing Bone Miser's "Whenever you discard a noncreature, nonland card, draw a card." When this trigger resolves, we replace the draw with a dredge, getting Nightmare Void back to our hand and milling two cards in the process. If we run at least two shufflers ( Kozilek, Butcher of Truth + Dread for example) we are always guaranteed to have at least 2 cards on top of our deck, which allows the Dredge trigger to always to happen when we discard Nightmare Void. Thus, we can discard Nightmare Void infinite times through Skirge Familiar and gain infinite black mana. We can finish the game with any finisher (for example Syr Konrad, the Grim).

In other words, the win con becomes: Have both Skirge Familiar and Bone Miser on the field and Nightmare Void in our hand. In my experience playing this deck you rarely win the turn you cast Belz because you usually get interrupted (by countermagic for example). Thus, you always need a plan to try to combo off in the next turns… Here Living Death, Ever After and Twilight's Call can provide combo recursion.

Because you need a discard outlet (Skirge Familiar) you are not immune to Cursed Totem but you are indeed immune to Damping Matrix specifically. This is a small advantage over the Necroozy combo.

However, the main advantage from the Necrotic Ooze combo is that creature removal is virtually ineffective (because you can restart the loop on top of any interaction). This combo is vulnerable because when the Nightmare Void trigger is on the stack opponents can cast creature removal such as Path of Exile. This is the reason why I swapped it over the Mike-Trike combo.

I do like the fact it requires less cards and I will add the cards to the maybeboard, however I still think it’s better to run the Necrotic Ooze combo for it’s resilience (in spite of the extra damage taken for requiring more cards).

You make a very reasonable case! And yes, this is absolutely modelled after the gitrog dredge loop. I just found it and thought it may be of some use.

While the nooze combo can "go off in response" it is also possible with the bone miser line. By discarding any noncreature, nonland card (now ncnl) (in frog we would pitch a land) we are able to start the dredge loop on top of the stack to net abundant mana, and if you choose to run a cyclable ncnl then also abundant draw to iterate over any of our cards on top of our opponent's interaction. Given that this is an option, we can then win in response, or remove our own creatures in response to swords, path and friends.

As ulamog shuffles your entire graveyard in you needn't run Dread. Rather you need to just be aware that your graveyard and library total are divisible by 2 (in order to net abundant mana via dredging nightmare void without the shuffler being your only remaining card in your library).

CyborgAeon you are indeed correct about the "go off in response" mechanic provided you have enough non-land non-creature cards in your hand (which is always true for the first go-off in response). However, there is small window where removal could be used if Skirge Familiar and Bone Miser enter the battlefield at different times (this happens in the first attempt). At this stage you must kill your own Skirge Familiar with Soul Spike (if the interruption exiles). In response, you can get enough mana to cast graveyard recursion: Ever After, Living Death

I do think Dread is still needed. Mainly because you are very often interrupted mid combo (by countermagic for example). You need a way to attempt to survive and combo off in the following turns. To do this you must have Skirge Familiar and Bone Miser in the graveyard/battlefield and have a card on top of your library. The eldrazi only help with the latter.

I would swap the following cards for your combo:

OUT (7 cards):

1x Cinderhaze Wretch 1x Endling 1x Lotus Guardian 1x Makeshift Mannequin 1x Necrotic Ooze 1x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon 1x Syr Konrad, the Grim

IN (5 cards):

1x Bone Miser 1x Nightmare Void 1x Extra Shuffler 1x Ever After (extra attempt) 1x Living Death (extra attempt)

I really like your combo and definitely choosing it over the ooze combo is a matter of preference. I have to say that in my meta having a creature based win (second attempt) is very valuable because of the decks I'm used to play against. Also the instant speed win through Makeshift Mannequin has been handy at times.

Anyways I'm for sure gonna buy the extra cards and give it a try in my play group. I do think your combo deserves a mention in the description (or even another decklist). I'm a bit busy these days so it might take a while for me to add it. However, if you have time to make a playlist I could also mention it and link it in the description!

Thanks for the innovative approach!

so how do you not die to Belzenok if every card in your deck is 4 and Greater

Absolutely love the deck, Bazzul! The level of innovation here is impressive to say the least. I have been running Demonlord Belzenlok for ~2.5 years now as the general of a demon deck designed to control the board and exploit the power of the tribe in conjunction with your devotion to black. It has proven to be consistently strong and competitive, but not quite at the cEDH level.

I was wondering what advantage Sibsig Muckdraggers provides over cards like Zombify or Betrayal of Flesh regarding synergy. I get it's there to revive Necrotic Ooze , but the other two seem as if they would be better options since they would completely reanimate Necrotic Ooze vs. just putting him in hand. Maybe I'm missing something here, I just wanted to hear your thoughts and reasoning for Sibsig Muckdraggers . I am currently in the process of brainstorming a version of your list so I can finally use my favorite general in the realm of cEDH. All credit to you, and I look forward to hearing back from you when you have some time! Cheers.

I'm worried about Swamp density, but I'm thinking War Room could fit in.

Sorry to everyone for the late reply, I've taken a break from mtg with the pandemic.

SlimeSolo759 probably you don't remember you even asked a question, given I'm replying months later, but the idea of the deck is to have a high land density (~70-75 lands) thus allowing you to survive the combo if you have enough life, also there are cards that prevent Belz's dmg from happening by giving him lifelink (such as Whip of Erebos ) in case you go bellow the life needed.

ThassaUpYo@ssa Thank you for following the decklist! Well, Sibsig is a bit complex to use but it has three advantages over other cards, 1) It allows you to combo off when no forest is in play 2) It gives recursion if the combo is interrupted 3) this recursion is creature based, which is dodges some common non-creature interactions.

Scott-Spain Definitely a card worth considering :)

Great job on the updates! You pretty much made all the changes I would've recommended. I replaced Boompile with Introduction to Annihilation because I have bad luck. lol

Hagra Mauling  ^Flip is another piece of removal to add to the list as well.

Looking ahead, I think we could add Treasure Vault, but it's also a bit risky.

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/treasure-vault/

Anyway, welcome back! Hope everything is going well!

Scott-Spain Thank you for the suggestions both added to the maybe board. As for Treasure Vault, it is not the best ramp land, but it is a ramp land nonetheless, defensively better than a swamp. I will add it when the set releases.

"win very very consistently. However this is mostly due to people not knowing what the deck does and ignoring you entirely"

i just wanna say.. this is exactly what happened as i piloted this deck at our LGS's multiplayer tournament! i made it champ!

from 4 pods of 4 players.. the winners of each pod battle it out to determine the top player. this deck is bonkers!

Now i am a fan. I am looking forward to future upgrades for this deck

Hey, I love this deck idea! Today we have another line, but very similar, using Trazyn the Infinite instead of Necrotic Ooze. Argivian Avenger can give him haste for . With Voltaic Construct and Gilded Lotus we have infinite mana. Then Staff of Nin can finish for us with infinite damage in instant speed.

I found this deck list of a demonlord belzenlok edh deck similar to the one you posted. However this guys doesn't run dread. yet somehow he was able to win 1st place at a 30 man multiplayer budget edh tournament. Here is the link. https://mtgdecks.net/Commander/demonlord-belzenlok-decklist-by-randy-mestiola-1713483. Is there any way you can explain how he prevents himself from decking out without dread? And why does he run crypt ghast and dread presence? is it simply to buffer his life to survive belzenloks dmg? It seems his strategy is to create ubound black mana with endling/cinderhaze wretch and use cackling imp. I figured he would've thought about the possibility of being interrupted but I can't seem to figure out his follow up in case that happens. Any help is appreciated thx. If not, wish you the best. Your decklist and explanations are awesome!