I wonder how do you grade partner commanders? Do you just ignore the partner part or rank as strongest another partner possibility?

Nonary27, not close the game on T3-T5, but I have taken out an opponent by T3 when I had an outrageously good opening hand.

Most of my games win between T6 - T8, and I do so by focusing 100% of all damage output on single opponents, rather than spreading the love.

In my experience, not enough players run interactions. Some have spot removal, but seldom is the density within the deck nearly enough to hammer down 3 opponents, let alone one with 60% of their nonland spells as creatures.

Additional, I almost never see dedicated enchantment removal. The spells that exist are like Beast Within and seldom are used against enchantments.

So, in my experience, permanents such as Dragon Tempest remain online for the entirety of the game. Knowing this, I have a dense plethora of burn enchantments, haste enablers and both ramp and cost reduction spells.

I can very easily cast a Dragon for just it's pips, and have some that are free thanks to cost reduction.

It's not unheard of for me to Drop Lathliss and swing with haste, then drop two more dragons next turn and swing with haste with all five (2x 5/5 tokens) and drive a life total from a healthy 40 down to 20 or less. Add burn on top, and I can TKO an opponent in a single turn.

LMAO at Tier 10

TypicalTimmy: did you even read the descriptions? Probably not, because if you had, you would know that your deck is too slow. Since you only seem to be reading down here:

Lathliss, Dragon Queen doesn't meet any of the criteria to be a high power commander. Lathlis is mono red, costs 6 mana, doesn't generate card advantage, isn't part of a viable combo, does nothing when you cast her because she doesn't have haste... she's just a casual Dragon tribal enabler nothing more, nothing less. And with all due respect, Lathliss does not qualify as a top notch commander, just because your playgroup is apparently too bad to play appropriate responses.

Nonary27: Partners are hideous to rate. But we normally rate them first separately and after that we're looking for their best pairings and then we're trying to find an average rating, but we try to mostly rate them on their own.

Is Grolnok, the Omnivore powerful enough to goes into tier-2? It giving insane card advantage and also Simic

Also, I want to build a Extus, Oriq Overlord  ^Flip deck, is there any special thing make it a tier-2 commander?

Nonary27

It's a decent deck (hence highly competitive), but it's not as strong as for example Tymna/Rograkh or Tymna/Jeska. Therefore we put it in T2.

@Nonary27: when you scroll up you can read in one of my comments, why Mardu is in a great spot right now... Extus can generate value, has great graveyard synergies and also functions as infinite mana outlet.

And yes we think that Grolnok is strong enough to be tier 2. But we just wanted to see more games with him. But he looks very promising. It's very likely that we will move him with the next update.

Thanks, nice to hear that non-Blue-Green are decent, but however, I'm more playing kinda budget (depend on budget definition, usually 70$ to 200$) and casual, so neither Dockside Extortionist nor infinite mana, can he still make to power level 7 without those things?

By the way, even Simic is strong, they are usually too one-dimensional, black have all the fun things

70$ isn't that much for a commanderdeck. I mean it's 0,7$ ~ per card... I'm not a budget expert, but yes building a 7 isn't that difficult with a multicolored commander... especially with a solid commander (Tier 0-6).

I don't know in what kinda meta/playgroups you play, but just build an original card folder where you store your expensive cards. Then: Buy every fetch-, shock-, pain- and battlebond lands of every color combination. And all the other commanderstaples you need like Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, all tutors, Dockside, Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, Cyclonic Rift etc. When you have all these cards, you can just use proxies of these cards and since the biggest amount of cash of a deck are mostly staples and the manabase, building a new deck isn't that expensive anymore once you have the most important staples. And when somebody cries about your proxies, you can just show your original cards in your folder.

When you can't afford a Dockside or a Lion's Eye Diamond you can also generate infinite mana with Worldgorger Dragon(4-8€) and cards like Animate Dead(2-4€)/Dance of the Dead(5-9€)/Necromancy(6-11€).

Or you can just play an entirely different combo like Dualcaster Mage(0,25€) + Twinflame(1€) or the "good" old Mike and Trike combo...

What's the deal with the new Tazri ? I always thought the old was better but I found it in Highly competitive. Is there a special reason for it and if so, there is a list I can take a look at? thanks

I would assume (without seeing a list) that new Tazri gives you access to 5 colours and can use any infinite mana loop to then get Thrasios, Triton Hero and go from there in a similar fashion to Kinnan decks.

You definitely have Seton too low. I play regular Cedh every Friday night with my old friends - no proxies because we have all the cards(we've been playing for 30 years). We have many decks that threaten a consistent turn 2 win as well as stax decks and grindy mid range decks - and Seton definitely picks up his fair share of wins.

Sure, he's not the best mono green commander but he plays very similar lines to Ashaya and I'd say is 0.001% off. Personally I'd put Seton in the 'Competitive' tier.

Oh boy oh boy oh boy we got an update

Speak of Lathliss, Dragon Queen, Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign is better right? Two card advantage is better than a 5/5 Red Dragon Token, don't have to be non-token to trigger, reduce 2 mana for Sphinx, lack that 2 mana +1/+0 for every dragon ability but is fine, and last but not least: Mono Blue > Mono Red

@Rivrek: Like enpc already mentioned. Tazri gives you access to the best cards in the format, and he can convert infinite colorless mana into a win by using his ability until you find either Thrasios/Spellseeker + Thassa's Oracle to close out the game. But in most cases, Najeela, Kenrith or Thrasios + Partner are just the better choice.

@Dam0: After the Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary ban, Seton, Krosan Protector was the best mono green commander, but after that Selvala, Yisan and Ashaya showed up and Seton got overshadowed. I've no doubt that Seton is still a strong commander, but he's just outclassed by Selvala/Yisan and Ashaya... Maybe he's on the same page as Marwyn... After the release of all the mentioned commanders, I've rarely seen Seton. Because of that, we're also lacking enough reliable data on him... In our opinion, he's a bit outclassed, and therefore he's fringe competitive for us. But show us your list and tell me the advantages of Seton over Marwyn or Ashaya.

@Nonary27: You already answered your own question. With Unesh you can snowball very quickly because of all the card advantage she provides... I mean, you can play Universal Automaton for and do a Fact or Fiction-effect for every changeling or Sphinx you'll play. Mono blue wincons (Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Triskaidekaphile or Atemsis, All-Seeing) are also easier than deleting every opponent with combat damage, and you can also easily protect your gameplan with Counterspells which is obviously better than mono red spells. There are also mono blue Sphinxes who can win a game by themselves: Sphinx of the Second Sun & Consecrated Sphinx

Great reference list - I wish I could filter out commanders that rely on infinite combos

Sorry, only half of my comment posted! I meant to ask if you have any recommendations on competitive-minded commanders that you'd consider competitive without relying on an infinite combo?

dfbenj: What's your definition of infinite combo? A lot of decks win using Tainted Pact + Thassa's Oracle which technically isn't infinite. Other decks use Approach of the Second Sun, which again isn't infinite but is still just an "I win" card. You could look into Edric, Spymaster of Trest decks which attempt to chain together multiple turn spells and win through amassing an anrmy of beaters. Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow is the same idea (though can run Pact + Oracle as well). Again, none of these are technically infinite but taking multiple uninhibited extra turns still very much feels in the same vein.

If you're after fair and balanced magic, you might want to look into something like a Tymna the Weaver + Tana, the Bloodsower bloodpod stax deck. A lot of these run a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Felidar Guardian birthing pod/Yisan line, though you can just omit the combo for more beaters/stax if you want.

I think he means that the deck that don't rely on certain cards, Aesi, Tyrant of Gyre Strait is very strong no matter how you build, all Narset, Enlightened Master need is big spells and extra turn spells, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV can make your opponents have Flood of Tears

While some commanders rely on certain cards and strategy, if you don't have those cards or stradgy then the top tier deck may easily crushed by some lower tier decks

Nonary27: Most decks will still lean into particular cards to win a game, whether they be particualr big beaters or specific "I win" or "You lose" cards. Even in battlecruiser decks, not all cards are there just to be turned sideways.

If dfbenj is after something more flood the board with beaters then potentially an Ezuri, Renegade Leader elf ball deck is the way to go.

One thing I will point out about you comment: "While some commanders rely on certain cards and strategy, if you don't have those cards or stradgy then the top tier deck may easily crushed by some lower tier decks" is that yes, If a combo deck is top decking rubbish then they will struggle, there's a more general theme of "If a deck is not functioning as it should, then it will struggle against decks that are functioning". But that's typically why combo decks especailly (though all decks do) lean into card advantage via draw/tutoring to aid in getting what they need. Sure, a battlecruiser deck doesn't have to be as picky about getting a specific beater, though it's much more efficient with the Blightsteel Colossus than it is with the Wurmcoil Engine for example. But while your claim is correct that "the deck that is working beats the deck that isnt", it's a bit of a reductionist statement.

Wow, thank you for such a quick reply Nonary27 and enpc! My play group is pretty weird in that everyone likes to play pretty competitive minded decks, yet without infinite combo / solitaire like loops. It's true that Thassa's isn't really an infinite combo, though I don't think they'd love the "Well, I win" vibe. That being said, personally I tend not to have fun on those kind of decks either because there's less variance game-to-game. I was trying out Tana, the Bloodsower + Tymna the Weaver beat-down! I haven't quite landed on a decklist I like yet - been drafting up a mix of voltrony meets token ETB/sac vibes and worry it's becoming too unfocused or I'm over-indexing to protect Tana. I have avoided the Kiki route since I already have a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker deck (that I admittedly never really play because it's combo, but keep around for nostalgia). Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow looks really interesting and I'm not using a few cards in my rare binder that synergize with her well - e.g. divining top, scroll rack. I have tested out Narset, but it was a bit solitaire-y and since another member has given it a go. Grand Arbiter Augustin IV also is very aligned with how I usually play, but wasn't sure how good he'd play without having a combo win-con on top of the stax. Some other commanders I've been testing are Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce , Muldrotha, the Gravetide, Wilhet, The Rotcleaver, and Volo, Guide to Monsters. I've also tried things like Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Obeka, Brute Chronologist, but by avoiding like an infinite Isochron Scepter combo their power level feels significantly lower. That's kinda what I mean when I wonder which of these Tier 1-3 commanders hold up to that tier without relying on a specific iconic combo / "I win" card. I'm very indecisive so your suggestions are so helpful in reeling in my focus! Left to my own devices I will be so busy playtesting 100 commanders and never have time to enjoy the game. :)