Try adding an Elvish Piper in there to be able to drop your big baddies for one measly green mana

+1

Thanks for the input and appreciation white2abbit! The problem, for me, with Elvish Piper is that I feel it's too slow.

For example: T1 - Land, Llanowar Elves. T2 - Second Land + Llanowar's mana = Somberwald Sage or Cultivate. T3 (depending on the 2nd) - Vorapede/Thragtusk/Sublime or even Terra Stomper!

In the Elvish Piper scenario, I would have to play him T3 instead of a big creature. That would allow me to drop Gaea's Revenge or Craterhoof T4, but they're finishers that work better with a bigger table (and I could play Gaea's Revenge with Terra Stomper on T4 anyway, for 17+[Miracle from Revenge of the Hunted] damage).

What do you think?

Here's one for you has the drawbacks of being slow and helps your opponents out but thought I'd suggest it Hypergenesis helps your opponents out and you have to wait three more turns but if you have a handful of big creatures then your opponent better look out.

Hey nlough, I guess that would work great against black/blue control (assuming it wouldn't get countered), but then again, what is the point? By T3-4, with a regular land drop, I could cast Great Sable Stag or Thrun, the Last Troll , which are big problems for both. And against other decks (like Affinity), it does not seem wise to be playing such a card. But thanks, pal!

You could try adding Grim Monolith . i use it in my giant creatures deck, and it gets the creatures i want out really quickly.

Frayace, I've tested it and it seems a bit slow (although better against removal). I'm not yet convinced, but I appreciate the suggestion.

You could probably just get more mana dorks to get your guys out faster. Lately, the cool thing has been to run Elvish Mystic as a play set and to also run Elvish Archdruid as a play set. however, they only tap for green mana. hopefully this helped you! I want to see this deck work!

SlumberingDragon, I had Elvish Archdruid along with Llanowar Elves in an early version of this deck. Albeit their great synergy, once you remove the Archdruid you're pretty much left with a lost turn. Don't get me wrong, Somberwald Sage can also be as easily removed, but it's a three color mana producer that does not depend on another creature to ramp (and it also corrects the mana curve).

I'm really wondering if this idea has not reached it's limit (which is a 7 cmc drop by T-3). Guess I'll have to stick with that, or else make it a Force of Nature kinda thing, which I don't wanna.

If you made this more of an Elf Ball deck with cards like Priest of Titania , Gaea's Cradle , Elvish Archdruid , etc. you would generate tons more mana faster. Then cut the big beasties down to a few copies with green in their CMC to be able to fetch with Green Sun's Zenith . Sigarda, Host of Herons is a badass, IMO.

Also having 4x copies of cards will greatly improve consistency.

Your sideboard should have 3x Creeping Corrosion for Affinity, 3x Corrosive Gale for Delver. Some spot removal like Beast Within , Path to Exile , and/or Swords to Plowshares are good too.

For discard ala Mono Black Control, Jund, and Red Deck Wins targeting you (not discard, but direct damage), Witchbane Orb works wonders. You could sideboard Obstinate Baloth as well.

For mill decks, Wheel of Sun and Moon works well. Also Eldrazi like Kozilek, Butcher of Truth , Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre , and if course Emrakul, the Aeons Torn are great anti tech. Blightsteel Colossus would work too. Plus if you go the Elf Ball route, you're able to cast them turn 4-6.

Lastly I'd run 4x Temple Garden to help with fixing and replace Revenge of the Hunted for something else.

Ramp is a forte of mine... Here are two of my lists:

Legacy 12 Post

Legacy Gruul Ramp

Hey aeonstoremyliver, I really appreciated the time and effort you've put in this thoughtful post (specially the sideboard, which is something I've been struggling with).

I should emphasize, however, that this is not supposed to be an Elf deck (for that, I've built Force of Nature, which - god hand - drops a T-2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn . With that in mind, and the fact that I don't really mind creature consistency (with the exception of the 'rampers'), I don't think the Eldrazis fit here, since they are too big and, with the exception of Emrakul, easily removable.

What do you think?

Well, Arbor Elf + enchant land that produces extra mana = potent ramp.

Wheel of Sun and Moon would be great if you don't want to run Eldrazi verses Mill.

Somberwald Sage while good if unchecked, has limited use, a high CMC investment, and is fragile. Granted most creatures die to removal, however Overgrown Battlement survives the Lightning Bolt test at least.

Lotus Cobra is freaking awesome with any sort of fetch lands, Rampant Growth , Sakura-Tribe Elder , Solemn Simulacrum , and especially Primeval Titan . Prime Time makes ramp decks happen and is a huge threat by himself.

Again, I would spend many creature slots delegated to ramp, perhaps 22 out of 30.

So maybe:

4x Arbor Elf

4x Lotus Cobra

4x Sakura-Tribe Elder

4x Overgrown Battlement

2x Solemn Simulacrum

4x Primeval Titan

Then add big beasties to suit your taste.

aeonstoremyliver I tested your suggestion and it is a little heavy on the ramp side. And - oh, the irony - the ramp can't keep up the pace against Affinity, for example. By the time Primeval Titan sees play, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is already kicking my ass because of summoning sickness, or I'm already facing the ridiculous pair Etched Champion + Ethersworn Canonist .

The current build is solid, though.

Elvish Piper

Hey Smaug1007, I've already established that the Piper is too slow for this. Anything else?

So how is it too slow? If I can get Akroma out on turn 5 Id be pretty happy

Smaug1007, by my build, T-5 Akroma is to be expected. With god hand (described below and on the deck description), I can play it T3. So you can see how it might seem slow to me ->

T1- Play Forest , play Arbor Elf

T2- Play Forest, cast Utopia Sprawl , enchant untapped Forest, tap twice to generate 4GG, cast Somberwald Sage

T3- Cast any creature from the deck.

The second comment on this thread pretty much covers the in game scenario as well, Smaug1007.

I playtested this deck against mine, Budget Burn, and frankly I trounced you 3-0. Your deck is creative and I like it, but it's simply not consistent enough, resulting in lots of mulligans and uncastable fatties in your hand. The Timmy in me loves green ramp decks so I'll try to help you.

Firstly, with only 8 one-drops, you really need more land. I know that with ramp sometimes you have tons of mana and drawing into land sucks, but I truly believe you should run at least 22. The ramp doesn't help you if you have only one or no lands in your opening hand.

Secondly, looking at this deck, I count only 12 ramp cards: Arbor Elf , Utopia Sprawl , and Somberwald Sage . In comparison, I count 20 bombs with 5 cmc or higher. Those numbers need to be reversed. The reason is that the bombs are dependent on the ramp, but not vice versa. Being stuck with a ton of ramp and no bombs to play sucks, but at least when you finally draw that bomb it's coming down immediately. On the other hand, holding on to Akroma in your hand while waiting to draw some ramp is worse, because even if you do, you're stuck playing catch up.

So what ramp to add? Well there are a ton of options, from the classic Llanowar Elves all the way to the 6-cmc Primeval Titan . You can take your pick. However, I really like the Arbor Elf + Utopia Sprawl thing you have going on, and in fact I have a ramp deck that relies on the same concept: GREEN!!!!! (Turn 3 Win). Check it out, and if you like it, I'd encourage you to add some Overgrowth and/or Voyaging Satyr for your ramp; they have great synergy with Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl . The downside however is that you'll probably have to lose Somberwald Sage , because it can't cast Overgrowth .

Another way to strike a balance before ramp cards and bomb cards is to find cards that are both! A great example of this is Garruk Wildspeaker , which I think should replace Garruk, Primal Hunter in your deck. His first ability ramps by at LEAST two and has great synergy with Utopia Sprawl , while his second ability can make beasts if you already have all the ramp you need. And of course, the ultimate can often win you the game, and is actually pretty easily achievable.

Another card that is both ramp and bomb is Omnath, Locus of Mana , although I eventually took him out of my deck for lacking trample, and other reasons. Primeval Titan is popular as well, but 6cmc is already pretty high, so it's your choice.

Continued in part 2 (apparently there's a comment-size limit)...

Continued...

My other tip for you is to lose white. I know that would change this deck a lot, but honestly I have no idea why you have white in this deck. Unflinching Courage is a total misfit, and I would beg you to take it out even if you keep white in. It's a win-more, a potential 2-for-1, and has no good targets on turn 3. Out with it.

What else are you using white for? Twilight Shepherd and Akroma, Angel of Wrath . Both great bombs to be sure, especially Akroma, but why does it have to be them. My friend, you're playing green, THE color of huge efficiently costed creatures. Surely we'll be able to find suitable replacements for them in green?

The first thing that comes to mind is Primalcrux . In your description you said you're looking for big, evasive creatures with cmc <=8. Well, Primalcrux is the king of them all. Sure he doesn't have Shroud or Protection, but for 6 mana you will most likely be getting a 10/10, and the Trample is crucial. If he survives even one turn he will make a huge dent in your opponent's life total. And if you're able to play two, I just feel bad for your opponent.

Another one that comes to mind is Khalni Hydra replacing Terra Stomper . If you take my advice and go mono-green the casting cost won't be an issue, and you'll usually be able to cast it for 5 or less. Plus, it works GREAT with Primalcrux ; those two are a well-known combo.

You can also consider Elderscale Wurm , which protects from burn and, well, pretty much anything else. The aforementioned Primeval Titan , or Vigor is another fun one. But it's green we're talking about, I'm sure there are plenty more you can find.

As for what's already in your deck, I'm not a fan of Wolfir Silverheart . You said it's important to you that your creatures are hard to kill; well Wolfir is not only easy to kill himself, but his soulbound makes him vulnerable because whatever he's bonded with can just be killed. So maybe thing about playing less than 4x of him. As for Vorapede , I personally believe there are stronger 5-drops, but if you're looking for hard-to-remove creatures I must agree he's a good one. Plus, awesome with Primalcrux if you choose to go that route.

As for 3-drops, I think there are better options than Great Sable Stag . How about Predator Ooze ? That's hard to remove. Or, even better, go up to 4cmc instead of 3 (your curve needs it anyway, I mean just look at that jagged thing) and play Thrun, the Last Troll , who is notorious for probably being the hardest green creature to remove in the whole game of magic.

Anyway, I don't expect you to take ALL my advice, but if you take even some of it I think it'll make your deck much more consistent, meaning better. And since you clearly love ramping into huge creatures, just like me, please take a look at my deck GREEN!!!!! (Turn 3 Win) and tell me what you think about it. I'd love your advice or even just a +1. Thank you!

Hey yuval, I really appreciated you thoughtful comment(s). So, let me carefully reply them. The challenge here is to build a G/W creature (competitive?) deck. I already have and play two Elf decks and a defender ramp deck. Actually, I deleted the last comment section specifically because the thread went on and on this particular subject: "you need more ramp!", and I often disagree. I feel that the tappedout playtest often screws with the in-games probabilities.

When I play this deck IRL it almost never gets mana screwed. And except for Burn, which is becoming kinda of a staple in modern (and which Leyline of Sanctity really helps me deal with), I manage a overall positive score (lets say, in 15 competitive matches, I come out 10-5). Since I play in a control heavy scenario, and also have a Modern Burn Deck (Whut, dead already?!), I would really like to stick with this concept. I splashed white simply for Akroma, Angel of Wrath and thought about the rest, really. Unflinching Courage can really be win more, and that's why I've been thinking of replacing it with white removal, such as Path to Exile .

And about creature preference, yuval, having Wolfir Silverheart paired with anything is downright amazing. He even makes Arbor Elf a threat by making him a 5/5 mana producer. I don't see how anyone can overlook Wolfir. I don't like Predator Ooze , but I shall replace the Stag with Thrun, the Last Troll . The Stag is great, has won me a lot of games and is a toolbox against control but Thrun, despite it's legendary status, is better. I just don't like him :p

Anyway, I've made some changes. What are your thoughts? (:

Your changes mostly look good; Before you didn't really have any good reason to be playing white, but Path to Exile makes it more worthwhile I guess. Also, with Overgrowth and Garruk Wildspeaker, you're gonna get the land-untapping combo going much more often.

You say that a bad matchup for you is Burn decks, in that case you should really play at least two copes if Elderscale Wurm , mainboard. It's nearly impossible for burn decks to deal with, because it prevents them from burning you, and to kill it you need 3 burn cards, making it a 3-for-1.

Lastly, I noticed you replaced Utopia Sprawl with Abundant Growth . Why did you do that???? Abundant Growth doesn't ramp, it only color fixes (and cantrips, but still not worth playing). Perhaps you misread the cards? Utopia Sprawl allows a single Forest to produce 2 mana instead of 1. Abundant Growth does not. Switch back!

Anyway, your deck looks a lot better now, but of course I personally still believe you need more ramp, as well as many of my other comments. I'm glad you liked my own ramp deck, but I was hoping you would playtest it next to yours and see first-hand what I'm talking about. If you want to, of course. This isn't the first time I've heard of tappedout playtester discrepancies.

Good luck!

I did some playtesting of our two decks against each other for myself, and I thought I'd share my results with you to hopefully convince you that you need to improve your ramp consistency. You went first for all 3 games.

Game 1, on Turn 5 you hit 5 mana with your 4th land and Arbor Elf in play. You played Wolfir Silverheart while your hand was filled with even larger bombs. Then, on my turn 5, I proceeded to attack you for 44 Trample damage with a Primalcrux and two Khalni Hydra s to win the game. I had 16 available mana.

Game 2, Turn 5: you had plenty of mana available with two Overgrowths and Omnath out, but you were color-screwed with both Akroma and Shepherd in your hand and only two available white mana. You also had an Undead Vorapede. Then, on my turn 5, I attacked you for 27 flying, trample, and vigilant damage to win the game. I had Akroma's Memorial , Khalni Hydra , Elderscale Wurm , and 6 2/2 Wolf tokens.

Game 3 was the closest one of them all, lasting to turn 7. You were doing pretty well with 44-power worth of creatures out and lots of mana (I pretended Abundant Growth was Utopia Sprawl ), but I had you on lockdown with Elderscale Wurm and Privileged Position out at 7 life (you had exiled my previous Elderscale Wurm with Path to Exile but I drew a second one after Privileged Position ). Then, I attacked you with 73 Trample damage, which unfortunately after blocking still left 28, and I won.

Anyway, I'm really not trying to do a whole "my deck is better than yours haha" thing here. I'm trying to show you by way of comparison why the changes I suggested were worthwhile. In game 2, you were color-screwed. In game 3, you had lots of power but no Trample to back it up (another reason I don't love Wolfir), while I had Elderscale Wurm . And in all three games, especially game 1, I simply outramped you. I did it by having mostly ramp or even nothing but ramp in my opening hand, and then drawing into my bombs, while you played out the first 2 games with a bunch of 6-8 drops in your hand, hoping to draw into your ramp. So hopefully you see the difference between those two approaches. Additionally, you missed a crucial land drop in Game 1 that might have saved you, which is why you need to add more land.

Overall though, I'd say your changes were still very positive. Path to Exile was crucial for you in Game 3 and frankly I just got lucky for drawing that second Wurm. Overgrowth and Omnath almost kept you in the game for Game 2, unfortunately you just didn't have white. So keep tweaking your deck because it has the potential to be something really great.

For reference, the deck I used was GREEN!!!!! (Turn 3 Win)

I really wanna give you a thorough answer here yuval, but I just haven't being able to sit down and write. Meanwhile, I tested this version of the deck and, let me tell you, it simply stomped every time I've played it!