countering counters is rarely the way to get ahead unless you are a control deck. you have 3 reverb, a control deck will have more counters than that. he will outcounter you, so why compete? do what your deck is supposed to do. kill quick.

because they can do both. It gives me flexibility, Also lets say theres a creature I REALLY want to hit the board say a hellrider turn 6 they go to mana leak knowing I only have 2 untapped. OR I can use it to protect my spells either way.

Ok, look:

If you Grenade then Reverberate it right away, only to have your opponent respond with a counterspell on the main Grenade, the Reverberate will fizzle. You will do 0 damage. If your opponent tried to counter the main Grenade and you responded with Reverberate, you'd get a copy of the spell, deal 5, then the counterspell will get rid of the original.

So you're saying you want to hold your Reverberate as a counter to the counter of your grenade, but if you let him counter the Grenade YOU CAN STILL COPY IT. So the counter doesn't get you any more damage. You will still do 5. If he doesn't counter your grenade and you try to Reverb, he can counter the grenade and both spells fizzle. Now if you have an Increasing Vengeance instead, you'd get way more value because he countered the Grenade and not the IV, so (in dissipate's case) IV would be in the graveyard and can be flashback'd. Even if it's mana leak, you get another chance with IV.

If you keep a Reverb till turn 6 you ARE using it as a counter. In your given situation you're talking about top-decking a reverb turn 6 with a Hellrider in hand, that's the only way Reverb will really help you, and that's a small fraction of the time that will happen. You can do 10 damage by turn 3. By turn 5 you can flashback an IV and cast a grenade for another 10. If he dissipates a Hellrider turn 6, big deal, he's probably already dead, anyway, and throughout the game you will have more value from burns (which you have a lot of) by having IV in the graveyard. Even if you add in the Planeswalkers, that's only 5 in 60 cards when having a Reverb will be better.

I'm saying that it gives me a CHOICE. I've had this work in real games in real tournaments. you can't argue with results.

Vengeance is a better offensive card and more effective against counters but I can see Reverberate saving the day when a Wolf Run player casts Slagstorm with titans or Thrun on the board. In this case it saves a lost game where IV doesn't.

you could also use the Reverberate to copy someones Diabolic Tutor. But on topic they are both very good spells and i would say run some of both.

I have used it V.s. a cruel control deck where he had out and was using him to make vamp tokens to chump block with. He GFTT'ed my chieftain so I copied it and ruined his day next turn dropped 2 chieftains and swung for game.

I agree with emrakool. That's an apt situation (emphasis on situation). No one really plays Tutor, though, Marl, but I guess you could.

Like... I get it, but it's gimmicky. What happens when you play humans which don't use spells? With Reverb you're hoping to use the other guy's moves against him, you aren't calling the shots. You got LUCKY the guy with the Keeper GFTT'd you. An incinerate would have done the job just as well and it would have been under your control, you wouldn't have had to wait for him to cast something. Plus if you ran IV in that situation you could have had 2 chances (hand & graveyard) for another 3 damage.

All this isn't to say I don't like the deck. It's good.

You don't seem to get that early game, reverb is good against humans because you reverb the grenade, which should be game... by turm six or seven, your opponent donsn't know that the reverb is in hand or is a burn spell. A IV can easily be coutered, just like reverb, but the thing with reverb is that you can steal anything that looks helpfull, like a player playing any of the Sun's Zenith spells, being coppied and used against them AND can save the day on the account of playing a simple burn spell at the end of their turn that kills a important creature, they atempt to counter, so you counter the counter, making them pull what most likely will be a goood some of their mana pool to play important spells during you turn.

Exactly how I view it.

He'll I've reverberated a divination .. that kinda made me rofl cause i knew he was out of kill spells so he goes to div after my turn and I reverberate to refill on burn spells then killed him before the end of his upkeep.

I have this deck too but im ending up running a possible third koth, no shocks, and my side board turned into this:

3 Grafdigger's Cage3 Ancient Grudge3 Memnite3 Kuldotha Rebirth3 Arc Trail

Memnite Rebirth combo (Running threee stalked prey) is very effective against controll :P

Props on that, that's what i mean by somthing that seems helpfull :P

Know what? Ill make my sideboard turn this deck koldotha goblins. I LIKE THAT

What do/would you sub out for that sideboard?

Nazsmith

lolwut? Your vs. Human argument makes no sense. IV does the same thing early, and late they don't play sorc/instant spells so there's nothing to counter. Great, go ahead and copy a Zenith. No one plays WSZ if they're any good. Card draw on USZ will benefit a control deck more. GSZ is useless. RSZ can be played in the deck, anyway. BSZ is maybe the only card useful there, and that's only if they have bigger guys on the field. Like I said, situational. Did you not understand my earlier post? You can use the copy effect to do damage anyway, the same way using a counter would ensure the damage, but you get FB with IV so you can do it again. If your opponent knows you can copy his spells he's going to play around it game 2 if he's semi-competent.

Flinty I use it to make sure my creatures hit the field if I'm playing against control. Like I said you can't argue with results. The long and the short of it is it is NOT superior because of the high cost. I can just cast a goblin grenade a reverberate and a brimstone volley for the same mana and the same effect if that's all I was concerned about. I like flexibility in my games and IV just doesn't deliver on that front.

But if you're playing it to gain advantage vs. a certain deck, shouldn't it be a sideboard card? I can't argue with the results, but have you tried IV? Do you have results for it? Grenade/Reverb isn't quite Brimstone unless they counter the Grenade and the Brimstone has Morbid. My angle is that you're playing an aggro deck, there's no doubt about that, but you're taking away from the aggro, your deck's game plan, by using Reverb as a counter. You can use whatever you want, I'm not trying to make you change it, I'm just saying IV is a better fit for the archetype.

This is a RDW style .. RDW is not pure aggro .. yes it CAN win by aggro but it is designed to be aggro from turns 1-6 then it transitions over into burn. I have indeed tried both, in fact I had three instead of reverb but I was always wishing I could copy their killspell or copy their counterspell when one grenade would kill them.

I don't know about that, there aren't many decks more aggro-y-er than RDW. Burn is essentially aggro unless it's spot removal. A 1 drop 2 power creature is aggro. A 1 drop 2 damage spell isn't any different. But I digress: copying spells is a nifty, if not always reliable, tool. Copying counterspells to let Grenades through is the exact same thing as copying the Grenade, so I don't see how it benefits there.

Did you miss all the times where I said I use it to ensure that my creatures (who I must have on the board to even use grenade) hit the field that threat alone is enough to make people think twice about counterspells.

Burn is NOT aggro burn is a form of control not sure where you're getting that from..... rdw has always been a aggro control hybrid.

Anyway, this argument has gone on long enough. It's staying as is because it is much more versitile than IV I have used both and I prefer reverb for the reasons stated.

I plan on making my sideboard into a kuldotha goblin package to completely change game 2. Does anyone have any thoughts on that thread of thought?

I do not believe this is a good idea.

You can already expect any match-up to board in a heavier sweep removal package after they see your strategy.

Timely Reinforcements followed up by a Wrath should just blow you out no matter what you do just because it sets up time for them to continue developing board position while you run out of gas. No amount of Reverberate will help you with this situation as copying Wrath or Reinforcements will not aid you.

I would expect a competent Game Two to look like this:

T1 nada, T2: Flashfreeze, T3: Timely, T4: Wrath.

but isn't kudotha goblins more resilient to wrath and control?

He doesn't. Want. Increasing. Vengeance. Variety in gameplay is why magic is fun. I think the flashback mana cost is too high for this deck, aside from if he has Koth out on the field. But regardless, getting the option to copy whatever the opponent happens to be doing if i'm out of burn spells myself sounds like a fun idea.