xzzane, I have a guy that plays a mono-blue Infinite Turns deck in my meta. Is there anything I could side in that might help? Thanks!

B/W Tokens for the Win

What cards does he use in order to get infinite turns?

Oh geez. Sorry, I should have been more specific. I think he uses Temporal Mastery and Time Warp. The deck uses Howling Mine and similar cards for lots of card draws. He uses Thassa as his win con to kill you once he accumulates enough turns.

How does he make it go infinite turns though? Does he use Panoptic Mirror? If he doesn't use a recurring effect like Panoptic Mirror then you should be able to just disrupt him and beat him. If he does rely on something like mirror, then side in Rest in Peace, Nevermore, Duress, things like that.

No. He just gets so many card draws from cards, hits an extra turn card and on his upkeep he is drawing around 4-5 cards and uses draw spells and it gets to the point to where he inevitably hits an extra turn card and once he gets a Thassa out, it is game. He uses an elixir and shuffled everything back in and starts over.

I will side in more hand disruption and the Nevermore. Is the Rest in Peace worth siding in to take care of the elixir?

Rest in Peace only has a small impact on the game, and is definitely not worth siding it in. How does he ramp his mana out to be able to play these spells?

Well if he finds the miracle, then it is only 2. He does his thing for a turn. Takes his next one, draws into another, repeats, laying down enough lands eventually be able to hard cast everything if he has to. No real ramp cards. It takes him 5-6 turns to really get going; for this reason, Aggro usually destroys him. Unfortunately, tokens is not aggro, lol.

The chances of him being able to miracle Temporal Mastery are rather low though, I would think. It has to be the first card he drew after all. You should have no problem beating him to be honest. Pack in more disruption and you should be able to beat him without any real difficulty I would think. How many times have you played against him?

You beat it just like you beat every fragile, durdly combo decks: discard spells. Maybe find out if Thassa is his only wincon and Stain the Mind her.

Stain the Mind too, forgot to suggest that.

Sorry, I'm a bit behind here. I dunno Adamantium13, 1 mana removal with downside vs. 2 mana removal with no downside (assuming for the sake of argument you are running red, mana fixing shouldn't be an issue). Splashing red also lets you get Dreadbore to take care of walkers so you don't have to waste turns attacking them.

Nice Primer. - I've been finding a lot of success running 2 of Liliana of the Veil with a full discard package.

Thanks! I don't think liliana is the right choice for the main board though. In certain metals, especially control heavy ones, it could definitely see play though. What is your meta?

I have a lot of combo and some Junk. You have never seen so many Goyfs. I run a Superfriend Token deck right now. 3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor, 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant, and 2 Liliana of the Veil with a full discard package and the Bitterblossom build. Have 3 Surgical Extractions in the SB. It works very well for me. Probably too many for most people though.

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't advise that particular build for most metas. Glad it works for you though.

I'm toying with a mix that is definitely in progress, including Harsh Sustenance, Skirsdag High Priest, and Twilight Drover. It's untested in competitive but if you're up for a quick review of my deck: [BW Tokens v2], (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/19-07-15-bw-tokens-v2/) I'd love to hear what you have to say.

I've thought convoke should be really effective with tokens so I have a few of those effects in there as well, particularly Hour of Reckoning. Any thoughts you have would be extremely welcome! Thanks.

I'll give it a better look tomorrow. Unfortunately none of the cards you listed are very viable in a competitive meta. What level of play do you want to use your deck in?

I'm angling toward competitive play within state, one-off store level but against players who may play more intensely. I am also battling a compulsion that requires me to try to do something "different" ;) I imagine getting stomped a few times will clear that up. I'd love any thoughts you're willing to part with and thanks in advance. I was intrigued by some starcity token decks and I've absolutely loved what you've done here and, of course, what I'm doing wasn't quite either one.

If you're short on time I think I can guess the critique with skirsdag and drover, but I'd be particularly interested in comments on Hour of Reckoning and Harsh Sustenance.. convokable board wipe of nontokens sure sounds sweet, and "BW Burn" with lifegain seems like it would have a lot of utility. But wtf do I know, not that much ;)

Issue: they're good when you're ahead, but very bad when you're behind. All the other cards are more or less solid regardless.

Skirsdag would shine better in a Aristocrat Token deck... But I don't believe it would be very competitive. It'd be a definite removal target once they see it can pop.

The major problem with Harsh Sustenance in this deck is it is a 3-drop and what 3-drop would you remove to add in Harsh Sustenance? In order to justify removing a card for another, the replacement card must be better and, in this case, it is not.

As for Hour of Reckoning, there is no place in this deck for a 7 drop, even if it has convoke.

Thanks folks! I really appreciate the feedback.

Zane. What do you think of Raven's Crime ? in the SB instead of Duress in a full discard deck? Having 8 MB and then 1-2 of this?

Raven's Crime is really good in decks like 8rack or Life from the Loam variants. B/w tokens really wants targeted discard though. Say you have a Splinter Twin player with 2 lands and a Splinter Twin in hand when you cast Raven's Crime. They'll just discard the land, with minimal harm done. Duress could have targeted the threat and dealt with what you need gone. Tl;dr: Duress takes away what they need. Raven's Crime takes away what they don't need.

What do you think is better: to run 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errants and 1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor or to run 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant and 2 Sorin, Solemn Visitors? And why?