I'll admit that the "funness" of different cards depends on the user and playgroup, but in what possible universe are Wrath effects symmetrical? The entire point is that you play them when you're way behind on resources, improving your situation massively. You can use 4 mana to nullify ten or twenty mana of investment. Most decks that play a good number of that effect are built to benefit the most from them by playing few creatures, to the point where a single one of them can swing the game. While a necessary balancing feature of the game, this is not what I would define as 'fair'.

Perhaps a better example: Wrath of God is symmetrical in exactly the same way that Timetwister is fair, yet the latter is considered one of the most powerful nine cards in the game.

This is entirely philosophical though haha ;)

Sorry, that sounded more confrontational than I intended wince

Are we all your favorites NoviceMagician?

NO!

Yeah pretty much. :)

I feel so loved. xD

They're symmetrical in the idea that, by reducing an opponent's board presence, you're reducing your own as well. Except if you have indestructible creatures out, but that's beside the point. Timetwister is a whole different beast, since you don't lose ANYTHING from playing it (besides 3 mana) and you gain a full hand while your opponent's tapped out and has nothing to do. That's why Timetwister's strong.

I suppose a more accurate analogue for why Damnation's unfun is by bringing Balance into the mix, which is an Armageddon, Wit's End and a Wrath of God for 2 mana.

TL;DR: Timetwister only gives gains, WoG only causes losses.

But the crux of the issue is that the losses suffered by the two players aren't equal. If I choose to play WoG, I'm in a situation where I lose a lot less than my opponent from it. So, in terms of game theory, I have a major net gain (since MtG is a zero-sum game).

Consider: I have a single Snapcaster Mage and my opponent has fifteen 2/2 zombies. When I play WoG, which one of us comes out ahead, despite that we are both left with no creatures?

And that net gain is how things like Stax are powerful.

(And the reason you point out for Timetwister being good is also true, but you play it when they have five or six cards in hand and you have none. So you both get seven cards at the end of it, but it is powerful because you have gained much MORE. Similar situation to WoG in that way.)

If you overextended your board into an all-out situation and I wipe, it's your fault for not considering that possibility. If you make a mistake and I punish it, it's not me being "unfun." It's not me deciding to kill your inner Timmy. It's me saving my ass and the rest of the board's ass collectively from your 30 power on board and growing. Just because you lost more than me doesn't mean that I'm being a dick, it's just me trying to protect myself from the hellish board state. You Boros Charm? Congrats, you win. I'm playing Day of Judgment and you Dark Dabbling with Spell Mastery? Congrats, you win the trade.

If you're building a stompy EDH deck, your job is to try to protect yourself from board wipes, not complain when I cast one. Also, EVERY EDH should play at LEAST 1 board wipe. Regardless of what others say. There are times when you need to absolutely kill the board, and it's not being an asshole when you do.

Sorry about the rant, but I get the feeling that we're entering the Spike v Timmy debate here, me taking more of the Spike side whilst you try to defend Timmyhood.

cracks knuckles

Fight? I like fights...

XD

I can handle myself in fight, JA can attest to this

What the heck is going on? I left for a few hours and came back and there's some sort of fight, intentional or not, going on. Have we forgotten this is just a casual tournament? Why are we getting up in arms about this still?

I don't know HOW it started, just that it did XD

It's a Spike v Timmy debate on whether or not Wrath of God effects are "fun." I say that if you decide to shit out 100 power on the board that doesn't win the turn it enters and have no protection, then you shouldn't get upset when somebody decides to cast a Damnation.

It isn't a fight, just intelligent discussion. Which is hot beans.

There is no fight, I just said that becasue I saw the pic of the dog from Tom & Jerry. XD

I feel they are necessary in the right situation, but to cast a Wrath for the sake of destruction is not what casual tournaments are all about. They should be used only when necessary so you may be able to regain your footing and rebuild your board state. I feel like every deck should have at least one wrath effect in every deck.

It's not that you are trying to destroy for the sake of destroying, but because if one side is overpowering the other, it can be difficult to make those decisions. However, in the end, having fun is a state of mind. This is just a game after all. :)

JA: A Timmy/Spike is not what this is, if you go back and read any d the comments. I am a Timmy, true. Board wipes make me sad. But that wasn't my point, I don't think they are unfair, and somehow I appear to have triggered JA. And I'm a little offended, but mostly confused.

SirFowler: Let me reiterate, to save you time. I said that Damnation was unfun, in an offhand comment. JA said they were fine because they are balanced because they affect both players equally. I noted our difference of opinions on the matter of it being unfun, and explained from a game theory perspective why Wrath effects are powerful and do not in fact affect each player equally. And then...somehow JA decided this was an ideological Timmy/Johnny fight. I'm kind of unclear on how that last thing happened.

JA, I don't think you are a dick (your words) if you play a wrath effect to stop me (or any other Timmy). They have a place to keep the game balanced. They can also make it incredibly restrictive, when used in excess. And you appear to have read into my comments something I did not say.

I did not start a rant, and I'll admit I'm confused why there is one at all. The only place that we disagreed was over a game theory concept of net gain.

I'm sorry if I offended you, JA. It was not my intent.

Eh, as a control player I've just had my fair share of shit thrown my way for resolving a board wipe. And I haven't had a chance to use that picture yet, so...that's how we got here. I didn't mean to offend you or appear offended, it's just that I'm bad at not seeming angry over the internet apparently.

All right, now that we have that settled, does anyone want to test their decks? I feel it's kind of difficult to understand others reasoning for some cards when we haven't played them directly. I don't think we actually settled on if we should play test them or not.

JA: agreed. Board wipes, like all things, are good in moderation. Also, every EDH deck should have one, as you said (unless they have a very good reason not to). But there are cases like a deck I saw recently, which just loops mass removal with bounce and Archeaomancer - which was my least favorite game ever, because nobody could do anything.

This is the thing with control in general. It's good to have it around in general to prevent insanity, but when it dominates the board, it makes everyone else sad because it prevents people from doing anything. Like board wipes, it's good in moderation.

We cool? :)

SirFowler: personally I don't feel like we should play test them with each other, because it ruins the surprise of our first games.

But if there is a pretest game already being planned, count me in! ;) I'm not quite done with my deck yet though...

Yeah, we're fine. I seem to always end up being that guy, so I'm sorry about that.

Wait, are you talking about my deck? If you are having concerns about my deck, I could change it if you'd want. I actually was thinking about changing it around for a while because I felt like it was a little too powerful for this tournament.

Edit: I got ninja'd. This was meant for Daed. XD

I don't have concerns about your deck, but I intentionally didn't look too hard at it in order to not be prepared for the tournament :)

I completely understand. If anyone does want to test, I'd be up for it. Just post on my wall or something and I'll set stuff up.