How do you feel about Body Double in the 5 cmc slot instead of Chakram Retriever? Mostly just need something to bridge the gap to 6 cmc and you’ll already have plenty of creatures in the yard she can become to untap Vannifar and continue on.

Body Double does not work because it will copy the CMC of the creature it copies as well, which means that you would not have a link to a 6 CMC creature.

Yeah I thought of that after I posted lol thought I was on to something for a second.

Hey there! First and foremost, I really like your build; it seems very smooth. I do a have a couple of questions though - is there a reason why you're running Archaeomancer over Fatestitcher or Temur Sabertooth?

Secondly, do you feel that Thousand-Year Elixir is worth the slot even with nothing to tutor it like Fabricate or Trophy Mage?

Lastly, would you consider running Dramatic Scepter and replacing one of your 0 drops with Walking Ballista and maybe slotting in Staff of Domination? That way the Trophy Mage line wouldn't feel as useless being that you have more than one artifact you can grab with it. You could also swap in Muddle the Mixture as a tutor for Scepter as well. Just an idea.

Anyway, I really enjoy what you've already got going here and will definitely be following this conversation!

Adding dramatic Scepter etc is way too many slots for basically nothing. I see no reason for fatestitcher or sabertooth they're both worse.

If you are still having trouble saccing hulk when it gets in play, look at the line(s) in this deck:

Prime Rib

I'm not having any trouble and I'm not moving to a line that costs 3 times the amount of mana that ours does

For those of us who don’t have Timetwister , is there anything you would consider a decent replacement?

Don't try to replace it just add something different like more interaction

RaPhst0w I literally said not to do that

You will never have mana for either of those and they're trash. If you want a Twister effect in this deck then I hope you have $2k

I appreciate the suggestion and I would agree that in most cases it might be worth the swap. Soren841 makes a good point though. In my playtests so far it’s usually over long before you’ve got the mana to cast something like Time Spiral . Appreciate the input though!

RaPhst0w we just can't afford to be returning more lands to hand, Vitalize also gets infinitely better with a dork in play since we could theoretically be recurring and recasting it 3 times.

Totally forgot about disciple of the ring, at least she is giving everyone a fun time coming up with lines. Do non drake lines just have to hope for an untap effect in hand?

Define non drake lines? I don't have any drakes in the deck.

When you get to protean hulk, vannifar remains tapped, how do you untap her deterministically in your chain? For example in the trophy lines she gets untapped by a hasted fatestitcher once for 4-5 then reanimated to pod the 5 into great oak, which untaps her for 6 to hulk, and the unearthed fatestitcher as well. Also the sage of hours combo is pretty shitty my man, since you are running 6 entirely dead cards that have no utility outside of the combo and one of them isn't even walking ballista. Why not grand architect pili pala walking ballista Rootwater Diver / Prophet of Distortion after the trophy mage line? Those cards are way less bad and are vannifars unique protean stack. Just my 2 cents.

Because the trophy mage line is shittier. Ezuri Hulk wins without haste, and any of the 0 drops can be cast from hand and/or start a Pod Chain. Our untap for Hulk isn't deterministic but it's also never once been a problem.

Loving the deck!

A question. How come no Natural Order? Should be an easy way to cheat out Hulk and then sacrifice in some way. Or is it too "slow"?

Cheers!

Dessa I never really considered it. My only issue is it doesn't actually sac hulk. I suppose that's a non-issue though lol. Will definitely test it.

This would help some common questions. Maybe have an FAQ in your description about the following

• What's the difference between hulk line in end step & hulk line in your turn?
• Requires more than 5 cards to be in the deck when hulking
• Cards are less effective in a game of cEDH
• Adds storm casting any 0 drops in hand
• More likely to have cards in hand that are hard to cast (ezuri, SoH)
• Allows for fewer interactive cards in deck
• Pieces are not viable to the deck's other strategies

If you address all of this in your description & any other ideas, you'll likely have less headaches (same for those who think you're mad for your choice). Instead of insisting SoH is better, give examples, reasons & statistics!!!

CyborgAeon I'm not sure what you mean on some of those points, can you clarify?

Tl;dr: Bro. So far your counter-arguments have been unsatisfactory, despite having been offered plenty of reasonable alternatives to the current playstyle. Help yourself by giving a satisfying answer with facts, reasonable calculations & examples.

Honestly the answer for the Sage pile question is really simple. It's just the only Simic Hulk pile that wins on its own. Sure there are more slot efficient lines, but they require Trophy Mage chains which take far more mana. And then you can't just win turn 1 or 2 off of Flash Hulk because you can't actually fetch the required haste off of your Hulk trigger. Thanks for clarifying, I'll get to that Q&A.

Hotcake_syrup suggested a hulk line similar to mine. Both can be found in the archives. Actually I believe I've suggested 3 options, of which 2 need an untap / haste... actually I now have a 6 card one that doesn't need haste & makes infinite mana. Here's option 4

Hulk > volrath's shapeshifter & phantasmal image & phyrexian dreadnought (both copies of hulk) > deadeye navigator, peregrine drake & prophet of distortion. Infinite mana. Draw your deck. EZ. Can be 5 cards if you just need infinite mana. Deadeye goes infinite with GoG & mana dorks (among lots of other options), peregrine drake is a deece af pod target (especially with minamo out), phantasmal image is great tech wise for creating copies of important cards on board, extra utility, shapeshifter (a harder to argue card, but not half bad. Can be used if you have another combo available and deadeye in hand - you can pitch him to enable other options.

Not saying this is most optimal. But from the outset - looks promising.

But then you need cards to actually win