I mean. If you change out your current hulk pile for this one, you already have the win included: Draw your deck with prophet. Play concordant crossroads. Play every creature in your deck. Flicker GoG infinitely. Swing for unbounded damage. Was that not obvious from "make infinite mana & draw your deck"?

It was obvious that once you draw your deck you need a wincon

and all those combo pieces are like a million mana, what if one is stuck in hand? That also makes us vulnerable to grave hate

Ok. So please, do tell how your previous combo was impervious to gy hate?

Furthermore: yes. Without sounding rude, I'm afraid that this combo is... pod-able. It also doesn't include creatures with 0 cost, that are just as dead in hand.

This combo includes:

A card that copies a value creature,

A card that enables multiple other combos,

A "reanimation" effect,

A good value pod target in a stax'd game (though it can be dead in hand),

A creature who wins you the game with infinite mana (but is usually quite dead)

A dead card.

This combo cuts out the following (I'll let you be the judge of how relevant the cards are to a game of cEDH based on their descriptions)

A 0/6 that has to be played once another piece is in play.

A 0/2 flier

A 1/1 beater

A 3/3 card that is only goof as a combo piece

A 1/1 card that functions as a win con, in conjunction with 1 other card & set up.

Keeping in mind that all of the 0 drops can't be fetched via pod if flash gets praetor's grasped.

I'm pretty sure you aren't understanding how the deck works. I don't run value creatures that need copied, I don't need to enable multiple combos, reanimation makes us weak to grave hate. My combo is not weak to grave hate because it does not use the grave. Flash is not my primary wincon, Hulk is and I'm not trying to pod into my combo pieces. All of the 0 drops can start a chain and are fetched off of Hulk as part of my wincon. Every single piece of my combo can easily be cast from my hand.

Please Soren, instead of telling me I misunderstand, enlighten me. Explain it to me, as if I were a simpleton.

CyborgAeon I'm honestly not sure what else you need explaining for. Soren841 did all the explaining he needs in the simplest terms and it just sounds like you're goading him at this point. He gave you a legitimate and straightforward answer to your question. I don't know what else you want out of this conversation.

CyborgAeon, I also explained it to you on your Reddit post. Your line uses the same number of cards for a worse combo.

Well, on a lighter note: I'd like to congratulate you gentlemen! You have outdone yourself. This is hands down, thee best Vannifar list I've seen to date. I love everything from removal/interaction suite to the Dosan the Falling Leaf to secure the win. I wish I had some pointers, but I feel like you guys hit every nail on the head.

Only thing I would maybe throw your way would be Autumn's Veil , seems like a nice fuck you at the end of very interactive stack.

Last but not least, if it's not a terrible inconvenience, would you guys mind creating a more expanded guide? I would love to see the creative process here a bit and what the mentality at every given stage of the game.

Congrats on the sick list, guys! This will be the list I will refer to when regarding the best build version of Vannifar.

Inkmoth_ It's definitely never far from consideration, I've just opted for things like Steel Sabotage because what hurts us more than counterspells/removal? Torpor Orb and Cursed Totem .

Soren841: Well played, good sir. The moment you pointed it out, I totally understood. Good choice, once I had that context I can see how carefully tailored the interaction suite is.

Inkmoth_ check the updates ;)

Soren841: Dude, nice touch! I feel a little dumb not noticing the lack of Natural Order before lol. Really good adds tho, I'm going to be trying out this list pretty soon at my game night. :D

Nice! I'm still just not sure about Natural Order over Intruder Alarm.. the only difference is we can tutors NO and it has more utility outside of combo, but its more mana :|

It just feels bad when you use it to combo and realize that IA would've been just as good.

Hey, why not run Walking Ballista and/or Hangarback Walker in the Hulk pile?

Kiddragon As far as I know, there are not any Hulk-friendly infinite mana outlets in Simic colors that do not require haste enablers. Besides, Walker and Ballista would die right away on ETB from Hulk, so they're not very favorable and do not warrant filling any of the zero-drop creature slots.

Kiddragon what Cal said, plus we already have 1 morethan the required amount of 0 drops and I'd rather not have more dead cards.

DiverDown But ain't any of the 0-CMC cards either dead-ish cards in hand or only used to nab infinite turns anyway? So what's the point if/when they survive?

Kiddragon but they can start pod chains, so your suggestions would be more dead than what we have, and have no need for more 0 drops.

With the current build, what does a typical chain to victory look like? How early can you start it?

Typically you'll start from a 1 drop and just walk up the chain and sac Hulk. I would've won turn 2 last night if it weren't for a Pithing Needle but I still ended up winning.

Soren841 How did the play go? I'm really curious on a potential T2 win

Turn 1 I topdecked Mana Crypt to go Fetch -> Trop, Mana Crypt, Lotus Petal, cast Vannifar. Turn 2 without the disruption would've been BoP from hand, sac it to chain to Hulk, hardcast Deceiver Exarch to untap Vannifac and sac Hulk for the win.

Doesn't that chain break at 5?

Kiddragon the "chain" requires Chakram Retriever or Disciple of the Ring to be activated. Not the cleanest thing and Soren didn't specify that part, but it still works in this specified line.