I am thinking about, and am probably going to turn the 2 Red Sun's Zenith's into 1 galvanic blast, and 1 Goblin Grenade.

I started thinking about that when someone made a good argument against Red Sun in a somewhat similar deck(would be nice if I could remember the name, and deck for reference).

I have noticed that I often get stuck with Red Sun early on, when a Galvanic Blast or Goblin Grenade would be better, and then I tie up my mana for red sun, and cant do other stuff like drop a planeswalker, goblin, curse,etc.

Late to mid game is where Red Sun shines, but the game usually doesn't last that long. And altho I got red Sun for, and it does bail me out late game, and altho I can redraw,reuse it, it sometimes gets countered, wasting mana, and I rarely get to reuse it. Also Since I can use the planewalker's to bail me out mid to game, red sun might even be a little tiny bit redundant, on why I put it in, in the first place.

Also with 13 artifacts, and lots of Goblins, Galvanic blast, and Grenade should do 4,5 damage anyways. Yea Red Sun can do 6 to 8 damage and kill a 6/6 titan, but Spikeshot Elder + Grenade or blast can do that.

Also having 3 Grenade's and 3 Blast, will make it so that they come out often(which will make miasma happy to get rid of the 2 of 2 red Sun's and push the grenades and Blast to 3 of's, for better frequency,focus,synergy,etc)

So what do ya all think? Good Change? Do it?

I am going to make the change semi Permanent for now, but am definately very open to discussion on this.

Thanks in advance for any help,comments,discussion,+1's etc over this

Mike

Changes: Turned 2 red Sun's into 1 Galvanic Blast, and 1 Goblin Grenade.

Updated Deck Breakdown, in the Deck Description.

After some play testing I have noticed that deck plays better after making the change.

I am going to take the deck to FNM, and will report on how the deck does

I have also decided to take Fling out, and turn fling into 1 blast, and 1 grenade.

I was getting stuck with fling to early,with no creatures to target, and it tied up my mana.

And fling only targets 2 creatures(strom kirk, and Souleater),likely to get big enough to do more then 4,5 damage that Galvanic Blast, and Gob Grenade does.

Also Fling cost 2 mana, instead of 1 mana like Blast, and Grenade, and because of that, tied up my mana.

Blast and Grenade will do the same job as Fling.

Also going from 2 flings and 3 Blast, and 3 Grenades, to 4 blast, an 4 grenades, will make the blast and grenades come out more often, and synergize even more with artifacts, goblins, and will give 2 cards, that have 4 of, instead of 3 of(which will make miasma happy)

Turned 1 Grenade into 1 infernal plunge

updated Deck Breakdown, in the Deck Description

I am really faced with a tough decision on whether or not to go with 4 Goblin Grenades, and 2 infernal plunges, or to go with 3 Gob Grenades, and 3 infernal plunges.

4 Grenades, 2 infernal plunges:

Pros:

1.More likely to draw a grenade.

1. Won't get flooded with 2 Plunges, with either no creatures, or creatures to good, that don't want to sac.
2. will have 15 burn, instead of just 14 burn cards.

1. getting stuck with 2,3 Grenades, and either no goblins, an or goblin's to good, don't want to sac for Grenade.
2. Not getting a plunge,memnite, or plunge + a creature to be able to drop good stuff turn's 1,2, that wouldnt normally be able to cast out on those turns 1,2 without Plunge

Pros:

1. Will get a plunge out more often to cast out good stuff, on turn 1,2, that normally wouldnt be able to be cast out that early.
2. Won't be likely to get stuck with a grenade, that cant cast, because of no goblins, or a Goblin to good, to not want to sac it to cast Grenade.
3. Will get rid of a 2 of to make a 3 of, by being ok to turn a 4 of, into a ok 3 of.

1. 14 burn cards, instead of 15 burn cards, might not be enough burn cards.
2. Having 3 Plunges, might cause me to get 2 of them very early, with no way to cast them.

I am slightly, barely leaning towards 3 Grenades, and 3 plunges.

And I have already made that change.

So what do you all think? Should I go with 4 Grenades, 2 Plung's, or 3 Grenades, 3 plunges?, and why?

Please Help.

Thanks in advance for the help with this tough decision

Mike

I decided to majorly, constantly tweak, make changes to the deck so that the deck would play even more insanely faster.

Turn 1 almost kills, and turn 2 kills, and turn 3 kills werent happening as often as I wanted,hoped it would.

Somewhat almost most of the games, should be won by turn's 3,4 at the latest, somewhat almost most of the time.

Also turn 2 kill's happen, and turn 1 almost kills for 16 to 19 damage to foe on turn 1 are also theoretically possible, but would still be ultimately insanely rare( I just want to see it happen just once with this deck)

And when the game last 5 to 10 turns+ the goblins get extremely inaanely big by turns 6 to 9, if have out pumpers.

Also Phyrexian Metamorph does belong in the deck and can copy every permanent in the deck except the curse's and the opal's, and can copy get rid of opponents legends, an or copy foe's big creatures. So if copy a foe's BIG creature with Metamorph, and then get rid of creature with Grenade, then combined with how big the Goblins can get, the deck, can win late game, as well as early game.

And when combined with sideboard, this deck can deal with hexproof, Protection from red, Slagstorm, Dismember, counterspells, blue/white control, Solar Flare, RDW, other goblin decks, built less effectively then this 1, wolf run,etc,etc.

The only thing holding the deck back is possible bad draws, and lack of drawing ability. I could use Panic Spellbomb, but I prefer to use Burn to deal with creatures over Panic Spellbomb. Plus when the Goblins get big enough, they can kill, board clear creatures, that nlock them.

This is also why I did eventually take miasma's advice and go with 4,5 4 of's and 3 of's and only the 2 planeswalkers Koth,Chandra, are the only 2 cards, I dont have at least 3,4 of, in the deck.

The Deck is very expensive money wise at about $200+, and is probably the most expensive Kuldotha Goblin Deck in Standard. This is not to brag tho. And I didnt just haphazardly throw some expensive cards together. It took a lot of time,thought,skill,money to put this deck together.

And I am still putting the deck together, as I need 2 more MOX OPALS. I am willing to trade 2 Stromkirk Nobles(the ones I took out of this deck), and 2 Adaptive Automaton's(same as with the nobles), and $9 an or possibly other cards, for 2 mox opals.

If interested contact me. Also how do you safely do trades on this site on over the internet? any hints,tips,advicehelp,suggestions?

thanks

Mike

I love goblins, +1!

Thanks for the comment and the +1. I like goblins a lot to, especially when you cast,drop a 1 red mana cost 1/1 Spikeshot Elder, turns 6 to 8, and it turns into a 6/6, to 8/8, as soon as its hits, enters the battlefield, lol.

Needs 1 forest so you can ghost quarter yourself when you have wolfrun, but can't activate it.

wouldnt that cause situations where I would have to drop a forest, instead of a mountain when its not wanted.

And even with the forest, wouldnt there still be situations when I wouldnt be able to activate Kessig wolf run, because didnt have a ghost quarter, or a rootbound out?

Also the Ghost Quarter's are in there primarily to destroy foe's Kessig wolf run.

I guess I can try 1 forest, and 1 forest would also help with getting out Autumn's veil when I sideboard it in vs counterspell heavy decks

Also I am concerned about not having enough mountains to fuel koth's -2, -5 emblem abilities, for either 1 point of damage to foe, or add 1 mana to my mana pool, for each mountain I have in play.

I guess I could go with 3 Rootbound Crag's and 1 forest

thanks for your comment,help, and if you like the deck, please don't forget to +1 the deck, if you like the deck,

Mike

Changes: I took the deck down to 61 cards, 21 lands, from 65 cards, 23 lands.

The Deck now has 61 cards, 21 lands, a .344 land, mana ratio

Because taking the deck down to 61 cards, meant taking out 2 artifacts, going down to 12 artifacts from 14 artifacts, and because I want 14 artifacts instead of 12, and because I want a artifact that deals burn damage, and because miasma suggested it, and because I have been wanting to add them before miasma suggested it, I turned 1 Galvanic Blast, and 1 Grenade, leaving 2 behind of each, into 2 Shrine of the burning rage's.

I also updated the Deck Breakdown, in the Deck Description.

I made a comment in the reinventing Kuldotha deck by metalmagic on the same hub as this deck.

In the comment I suggested he turn the chancelors into 2 Phrexian Metamorph's and 1 more mox opal for 3 mox's instead of 2.

altho chancelor does give him Goblin tokens, it doesn't draw that often in opening hand, and doesnt cast out until turns 5,6While Phrexian Crusader copies everything, and is better.

Also suggested that he turn take out 2 of his 4 Shrine of burn rage's and turn them into 2 Galvanic blast, because blast does 4 damage for 1 mana without sac a creaure.

Also that he turn 2 goblin grenades into either 1 Koth, 1 chandra, or 2 chandra's or 2 Koth's. That would give him 2 shrines's 2 Grenades, 2 blast, 2 burning planewalkers, and 3 elders for burn.

Also that he add 1 more land for 61 cards, 21 lands, for a better .344% land mana ratio, over his .333% land mana ratio.

I suugested these suggestions, because they truly do make his deck better, and because this deck truly is a better,improved,derivative of his deck, and that my deck is the best Kuldotha Rebirth deck on this hub so far.

While, during I did this deck, I would have said that his was the best Kuldotha deck I had seen, and that's why I + 1'ed his deck.

Thats not to say that his deck won't become better then my deck again. His deck may become better then my deck again. If people continue to make help,comments, and +1 his deck, and my deck, and others Kuldotha Rebirth Goblin decks, that they like, as doing so will help make the best Kuldotha Goblin deck possible.

And I want to see,have the best Kuldotha Goblin deck possible, because I not only like the theme concept, but Kuldotha Goblins, is effective if built right, and I am running Kuldotha, and another land destruction deck, as my tourney decks so far.

I also refered to this deck as reference, so that he,metalmagic could see how the suggested changes to his deck would help his deck.

So please just like I have tried to help,make comments,+1'ed his deck, and other kuldotha goblin decks, and other decks, then please help,comment,help,+1 this deck, if you like the deck, and the reinventing Kuldotha deck.

And anybody who likes that deck should like my deck as well.

thanks in advance for any comments,help, +1's.

Mike

In the comment above, I made a error. I meant to say Phyrexian Metamorph, and instead accidentally typed out Phrexian crusader instead. Phyrexian Metamorph copies everything, not crusader.

Changed Sideboard. Turned 1 Mental Mistep into 1 more Tunnel Ignus, because 3 Tunnel ignus's will shut down Wolf Run better then just 2 of them, and 1 mental mistep and 2 surgical extractions, and 3 nihil spellbombs, and 2 Autumn Veils is enough to shut down blue/White Control/solar flare.

3 tunnel ignus's, 2 Ghost Quarter, 2 surgical Extractions, will shut down Wolf Run.

2 Ancient Grudge's, 2 ratchet bombs, 2 surgical extractions will shut down Tempered Steel

2 ratchetbombs, 2 surgical extractions,will shut down hex proof

ratchetbomb will shutdown another Goblin deck.

2 ratchetbomb's, 2 surgical extractions, will shut down a werewolf deck.

What I'm saying, is that you are relying on way too many random things to come down. In RDW, it's not a guarantee even if you have 4 of's. And i'm also saying that focusing on one strategy over a bunch of situtional comboes is a better way to go. I do see you have upped card numbers and found a strict goblin approach. I do commend you on that. But I do see you are mistaken about your Phyrexian Metamorph. For instance, its Converted Mana Cost is in fact 4, so it cannot be brought back with Sun Titan, which is way too situational anyways. It is also considered a Blue card, indicated by the Phyrexian Blue in its mana cost. Just because you don't actually have to pay blue, doesn't mean it isn't.

And you should probably drop Wolf Run. It can possibly cause unwanted mana strains, and most of the time, you will want to pump all your mana into Spikeshot Elder.

And just reading something else on here. You seem to be planning on all those games that go turn 6-9. With a deck like this, your gameplan is to win by turn 6. By then, you would probably run out of fuel anyways.

Miasma, I was not relying on to many random things to come down, not then, and not now.

Its not about how many of cards you have whether 1,2,3,4 of, but how many of a CARD CONCEPT THEME TASK FUNCTION CATEGORY you have.

For example lets say that I have the following cards: 1 dismember, 1 go for the throat, 1 doomblade, 1 beast within, 1 O ring, 1 arrest, 1 pacify. Now what do all those cards have in common? they share similar cmc's, they all either destroy, exile, bounce,deal with creatures.

So having 1 each of those cards, is like having 7 doomblades, 7 go for throats, 7 dismembers, 7 beast withins, 7 O rings,etc.

In that example I would have 7 creature removers, in the creature remover card category.

Basically I was using 2,3 path's either the get lots of dudes out, and pump them, or get a Stromkirk, make it big, doublestrike it,fling it, or get a Souleater out, pump it, doublestrike it,fling it. all 3 paths worked, combined great,awesome. Its just that I saw that I could make it even more awesome by choosing only 1 of those 3 path's. So I chose the get dudes out even faster,pump path.

And in that path Phyrexian Metamorph works AWESOME. normally if you have 3,4 Chieftain's, and 6 battlecryer's like 3 Signal Pest, and 3 Wardriver's, normally you only get 1,2 chieftain's out, 1 to 3 battlecryer's out.

Now I get either 2,3 chieftain's out, and 2 to 4 battlecryer's like Pest, Wardriver out per game, all because of 2 Metamorph's in deck.

Yes my gameplan is to win turns 2 to 5. But sometimes Plan A doest work. thats where you need a back up plan B or C that synergize's with plans A,B,C. Metamorph, Chandra, Koth, Shrine of the burning rage all synergize,work well together, and help both the early,mid,late game's

The deck now plays so fast, that I extremely rarely have the game go past turn 5,6. but chan,koth,morph,shrine all help out early turns 3,4,before turns 5,6, and help out turn 5,6,7 to turn 13.

And the deck extremely rarely runs out of fuel,steam, and keeps on going when it does extremely rarely goes past turn 6,7.

As to Wolf Run, it extremely rarely causes mana problems, and usually doesnt cause mana problems. The Wolf run is there as back up when Elder doesnt get out and or gets out, but doesnt work. But its a back up, most of the time the goblins get so big, that whats an extra +2 to + 4 gona do? most of the time nothing but OVERKILL. But hey OVERKILL is cool, and it doesnt hurt anyways

Also dont go look at metalmagic's reinventing Kuldotha deck, if you have problems with my Metamorph's, your most definately gona have a problem with his 7 cmc chancelor's

Also the 3 Rootbound crags, 2 Ghost quarters, 1 forest,2 Kessig Wolf Run's, not only help out with Kessig Wolf Run, miasma, but also help shut down Wolf Run Decks.

And they also help out with getting Autumn Veil out, when I sideboard Autumn Veil in, vs blue/white, blue black counterspell heavy control decks.

That's pretty standard Meta right now for mono red decks, like RDW, Kuldotha Rebirth Goblins

Actually, I really like metalmagic's build. I have come to find the Chancellor is decent for turn 1 shenanigans. And I wasn't hating on the Metamorphs. I was simply pointing out that something you had thought of in your "COOL AWESOME COMBO'S" section was misinformed. It just doesn't work like that. And all these combo's, synergies, and other things you keep mentioning, are at best situational. You can't exactly plan on either of the combinations to work at any given time. What if an opponent Doom Bladeed your Chieftain? That next turn Metamorph wouldn't come down on him. And there is always that dumb board sweep that is going to come down. All I'm trying to say, is that in order for a deck to work best, and consistently, it needs to focus on the main goal.

Also, your arguement considering "cards of similar function" doesn't make much sense. Having 1x Arrest, 1x Oblivion Ring, and 1x Pacifism is not the same as having 3x Oblivion Rings. They are all different cards. Obviously, anyone would go with a straight 3x Oblivion Ring's. Why? Because O-Ring is just better, in almost every situation, than the others. That Doom Blade isn't going to kill a Grave Titan, when a Go for the Throat will. You see what I mean?

And you seem to be getting a bit angry. I'm not here for fights. I'm just here for some friendly advice, idea's, and discussion.

Also, if you are interested in getting into the trading scene, I recommend setting up your trade binder in your profile page. You can set what you have, and what you want. You can even search for the card you want in the search bar, go to the card page, and it will show you a list of everyone who owns, or want the card. There is a dedicated forum that you could post to in order to get people's attention if you like.

I also think that metalmagic's reinventing Kuldotha build. I just think it can be bettered improved upon, and I truly think my deck does that.

The chancelor is decent in his deck, and is great awesome equal to 4 memnites, 3 mox's and 4 Kuldoth's, and 3,4 Signal Pest, 3 infernal plunges, go as far as speed goes.

Its just that as 3 to 9 other commenters on his deck pointed out, chancelor is all about getting them in your opening hand, or they are dead card slots that won't come out until turns 6,7. Thats why either 3 adaptive Automaton's, or 3 Metamorph's, or adding 1 signal Pest, 1 Wardriver, 1 mox opal to his 3 Pest, 3 war drivers, and 2 mox's would be better.

And you do seem to not like Metamorph in this deck, or metalmagic's Kuldotha deck. And that, I just dont understand, get why anyone would not like metamorph in this deck.

Sure someone may get rid of chieftain, but then I would copy Wardriver, or pest. Sure someone might destroy Wardriver/pest, then I would copy a foe's big fatty

And sure the combo's in the deck description are best case situations, but the Metamorph does have AWESOME interchangeable versatile synergy with everything else in the deck.

As far as what I said about 1 of's I guess I will just have to make a 60 card 1 of everything except sideboard, and lands black,white,green standard format deck. And when I am done with it, I garantee you it will beat most standard decks most of the time.

Also I am not agry at all. confused yes. Angry no. I am just explaining,debating,arguing,discussing yes, fighting no. Theres a difference between fighting and what I am doing.

Thanks for the heads up about the trading thing. But thats not really what I need the help with, altho that does help.

What I really need to know is, say I find somebody to trade with, using what you suggested, how do I do those trades, IE get my cards to that player, and that player get his cards to me.

Seems a little risky to for both trading parties, because they dont know me and I dont know them. So it seems like traders here could easily rip other traders off, or steal from other traders here.

So thats why I need trading help,advice,tips,etc

So I will try the dedicated forum you mention.

by the way, thanks for your comments, they are appreciated no matter much, or little I agree, or disagree, misunderstand, argue,debate,etc.

I also give credit when its due, like how I have given you credit for some of the suggestions you made that I did use.

Also I do listen, and try out things. But if I disagree, or don't use, I will either ask you others questions, or I will explain my logic on the matter, and give you,others the chance to rebuttal, convince,persuade me.

mike

Well, on the trading subject, I have done many before. Generally, people will just stick their cards in an envelope, protected with sleeves and Toploaders I might add, and just mail them through the Postal Service. Yes, there have been cases where people get ripped off. But really only 2 that I know of. The Tappedout community is doing a great job of keeping scammers out. But i recommend trading only with proven, reliable people, like rckclimber777, metalmagic, and myself. And if you ever feel uncomfortable with a person, how about you suggest that they send first, and when you recieve their cards, mail yours? I did that the first couple of times, because I was a little skeptical of it myself.

Changed Sideboard, because I can use the 3 ratchetbombs to destroy artifacts, so dont need Ancient Grudge. And Ratchetbombs will help with,for metal craft in my deck.

And I changed the the 2 ancient grudge's, and mental mistep, into 1 more ratchetbomb, 1 more Autumn Veil, and 1 more surgical extraction.

The 3 Autumn veils will help vs counterspells, and controll more then mistep would.

And Surgical Extractions will also be better for Artifacts removal,dealing with control,etc, then mistep.

When I face blue red, or blue white or blue black control, I am going to sideboard in 2,3 Autumn Veil's, 2,3 Nihil Spellbomb's, 2,3 surgical extractions, and make them miserable.

On another topic, thanks Miasma for your help, advice, tips, etc, on trading.

Sideboard out Slots.

1.-1 x Kuldotha Rebirth. 2. -1 x Memninite

1. -1 x infernal plunge, 4. -1 x Gob Chieftain
2. -1 x Mox Opal 6. -1 Gob WarDrivedr
3. -1 x curse of the stalked prey.

As much as I like the 2 Shrine of the burning rage's for metalcraft, when I use them, they only do about 3 to 6 damage, snd extremely rarely do more then 5,6 damage at most. And so 1 Galvanic Blast, and or 1 Goblin Grenade do 4,5 damage, which is pretty close to the 5,6 damage, Shrine can do. And it takes Shrine 3 turns to power it up, so the game is either over by then, or it gets destroyed. And with only 2 of them, they don't come out that often. I often thought: "sure would be nice to destroy this creature right now, but can't because I only have Shrine out, and no other burn cards in hand." Also my Planeswalkers,Chandra, Koth, and Metamorph's do just fine for mid to late game.

So I am going to turn the 2 Shrine into 1 more of each Galvanic Blast, and Goblin Grenade for 3 each.

Changes:

Added extra 2 card slots to go from 61 cards, 21 lands, to 63 cards, and 22 lands. I made the change because, after playtesting, and doing sample hands, I was getting mana screwed, and had to mulligan way to much. So 61 cards, 21 lands, .344% land mana ratio, is not enough. That's why I went to 63 cards, 22 lands, .349% land mana ratio.

I also needed the extra card slot to add 1 more phyrexian Metamorph, for 3 metamorph's. 2 metamorph's, wasn't enough.And 19 creatures wasn't enough, so now at 20 creatures, and 21 noncreature.

Also Turned 1 mox opal into 1 more galvanic blast burn card. Before the change, I had 3 Blast, and 3 Grenades, that with the 2 planewalkers, and 2 metamorph's, and 3 Elders, gave me 13 burn cards. That wasn't enough, and I just wasn't getting enough burn out to control the board, to get my Goblin's thru dealing damage.

Now with 4 galvanic blast, and 3 grenades, and 3 Elders, and 2 planewalkers, and 3 Metamorph's for 15 burn cards, I now get burn cards out often enough to control the board, to get the goblins thru to deal damage. The extra burn also helps me finish off foe better.

I would like to have 3 mox opals, but its better to have 2 mox opal's, and barely, very, slightly less speed, for better burn, board control. And I don't want to run 65 cards, and 23 lands, instead of 63 cards, and 22 lands, just for a extra Mox opal.

Also the changes gives me 1 more card that's a 4 of, so now have 4 cards, at 4 of, instead of 3 like before, (which miasma should like)

Also the deck works just as good,or better at 63 cards, 22 lands, then at 61 cards, 21 lands.

Also took out the forest, 2 kessig Wolf Run's, because it was messing with my mana.

I added 2 contested War Zones, which is better then wolf run in this deck, and is a great goblin pumper. And with as many goblins that come out, and with burn, koth, metmorph, I am not going to lose control of it often, and even if do lose control of it, will probably usually get it back.