I love your Talrand deck, I am thinking about building a lower budget version with the cards I took out of the main deck, many are extremely good, as your deck shows. I think you should consider some of the cipher spells, such as the 3 I run in my Talrand deck, because they can be token generating engines, as those extra cipher effects are casts. Stolen Identity can create 4 creatures in 1 turn, and another 1 each turn, with 2 and each afterwards being the best non-legendary creature.

DreadKhan, thank you for the feedback. I will certainly look into those cipher spells as options. Do you have any particular suggestions?

If the plan is to Polymorph, I would cut the Deadeye/Drake package, and just run Oracle/Leveler. I think the better plan is to always know that Talrand is lethal if Mass Polymorph resolves. Other than that, I would probably try and lower the curve a little. Cut some of the more expensive countermagic and run things like Winds of Change and Chain of Vapor. Dispel and Miscast should also be in here, and maybe even Foil for another free hard counter. It’s bad, but we don’t have access to Force, and losing three cards is better than losing the game.

Let’s cut some of the other expensive win cons like Sphinx-Bone Wand to run a few more mana rocks, like Coldsteel Heart and Sky Diamond. We only have one primary win condition now, but it’s much more effective and resilient, and we can keep our combat damage backup plan. If we really wanted to, we could play Proteus Staff to try and stack our deck in the event we draw both combo pieces/have had them killed, but I think that’s just super greedy and going to be a liability most of the time.

Amass the Components could be See Beyond. That way, we could keep the escape option if we accidentally draw our wincons, but we lower the cost by two. We could also shave Distant Melody and replace it with Chart a Course. It might be less cards total, but it’s half the price, and is always letting us see two cards. Careful Study could be in here too.

That’s all I can think of for now, but I really like this concept. Mostly, we just really need to bring down this curve. Best of luck!

Copied from my response on reddit.

Dredge4life, thank you for your response. I will certainly take your suggestions into consideration, and you will see an update shortly. Frankly, a bit of the slop you see in my list is just what I had available. That said, It is very helpful to gain some insight from someone who has more specific card knowledge for what I’d like to do. I’d also like to get the list down to $50, but beggars can’t be choosers. Thanks!

Personally, I think it's not a bad idea to have more than one wincon, in case someone disrupts you (which in cEDH, WILL happen, MULTIPLE times.) Sure, you have counterspells, but what's the point of having counterspells to defend your wincon if you can easily have 3-4 wincons to use just as easily already?

Reznorboy, thank you for your comment. I am inclined to keep both primary win conditions Thassa's Oracle and Altar of the Brood in the deck, as well as the tertiary con, Blue Sun's Zenith, however I will experiment without one or another. I can see that including only one single, two-creature combo will also decrease the amount of drakes required to polymorph into the combo, which would theoretically make a win that much sooner. This is an obvious benefit to having only one simple win con. That said, my polymorph spells are all CMC 6 anyways so won’t be available until turn 6 without fast mana / rocks. I should have enough drakes by that time regardless. I need to experiment with more rocks, possibly High Tide, and better quality cantrips and counters as well. This should speed up the win. The inclusion of multiple win cons will require this even more so. Thank you for your thoughtful feedback.

Bad ass sir I love a good strong budget deck, and talrand is a savage nicely done, this is a good deck for anyone to pick up and play and under $100

Thanks, Vash13, I appreciate that. The goal was to build a strong deck that anyone can play and that is not cost-prohibitive. Its almost there. Thanks for noticing.

Needs more mana rocks and more cantrips. A $20 mystical tutor is also strange in a $75 budget build, its really not worth eating up 1/3rd of the budget on a single card

Some of these cards are overcosted / bad / too situational, and some are "Holy crap this card is garbage and should never be played by anyone in any circumstance": cancel, hedron archive, neurok stealthsuit, runechanters pike, sphinx bone wand, the mirari conjecture, temple of the false god, halimar depths, castle vantress, mystic sanctuary, amass the components, compulsive research, distant melody, rivers rebuke, sleep, stolen by the fae, tamiyos epiphany

Some good and cheapish cards that youre not running are serum visions, preordain, dispel, 3 island to replace the terrible tapped-lands/temple, prismatic lens, coldsteel heart, sky diamond, wash out, pull from tomorrow, sleight of hand, gitaxian probe, chart a course, rapid hybridization, pongify, reconnaissance mission, bident of thassa, coastal piracy, supreme will, rune snag, heraldic banner, treasure cruise

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/updated-talrand-2/?cb=1594255629

my 2 cents

vitamintuna, you are absolutely correct that the deck is not optimum and runs some seriously jank cards. You’ve made some very good recommendations for cantrips and counters. Also, I have already been playtesting outside of this list with Bident of Thassa (and Reconnaissance Mission) and they will provide excellent card draw. I really appreciate your recommendations on mana rocks, some of which are already in the mail :) I also appreciate your sample list. It is helpful. I only really disagree regarding Mystical Tutor—-the card improves playability and efficiently winning substantially. To be honest, the deck ran even better with both it and Personal Tutor but was then over the $75 limit :( I am, however looking at some transmute cards as an option. Your decklist looks solid for the long-game even, whereas my goal is getting the combo out on turn four with enough counter magic to protect it. I will be rebuilding substantially with mana acceleration per your suggestions and I will revisit the cantrips as well. I appreciate your thoughtful response and the time it took you to rebuild an example deck. Thank you.

I have a quick question as I’m relatively new to the cedh scene. This is what I’m wondering in concern to part 5 of your primer(Is there a Plan B). When you cast Mass Polymorph or Synthetic Destiny, all creatures would enter the battlefield at the same time and wouldn’t you be able to stack the triggers however you’d like. So here’s my question if Leveler is exiled in response to Thassa’s Oracles trigger wouldn’t his etb still resolve? Also, couldn’t Leveler be exiled in response to his own etb trigger. I’m sorry if this is a newb question but I would appreciate any insight you have to offer. This deck also looks really fun btw!

WarSpaniel hey how's it going, it's not my deck or anything but to explain some of the rules your asking about, when creatures enter the field en mass the technically enter one at a time and you choose the order of how they enter, this is why cards like Cathars' Crusade trigger multiple times on mass entry, secondly when you respond to and etb that implies that it has not resolved yet as that the creature needs to actually resolve and enter to trigger the ability so if you respond to an etb with say a Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares the last spell cats resolves first so your exile will resolve then the creature will not enter or be present to let its etb resolve since the stack resolves in reverse order of how it was played, not sure if this is exactly what your asking, but feel free to expand if not, and never be sorry about asking questions we all have to learn some how, my knowledge of rules comes from years of reading judge rulings and refined text, it takes time and "the stack" is often one of the most misunderstood aspects of magic :)

WarSpaniel, first, thank you for your interest in my deck and the jank win combo. You have posed some good questions.Vash13 hello again! And thank you for reaching out as well.

There are a few matters here up for discussion: (1) order of resolution of triggered abilities of creatures entering the battlefield ‘simultaneously,’ and (2) responding to creatures entering the battlefield in order to potentially disrupt the resolution of the triggered ability. Also, in the conclusion of this comment I will address WarSpaniel’s scenario perhaps more clearly with a mention of revisions of the deck moving forward.

Creatures with ETB triggers enter the battlefield ‘simultaneously,’ simultaneous entrance is a fiction for the following reason: the entrances do not actually go on the stack simultaneously nor do the triggered abilities go on the stack simultaneously (or resolve simultaneously). The controller of each of the ‘simultaneous’ objects chooses their relative order on the stack. See Rule 405.3.

_ 405.3. If an effect puts two or more objects on the stack at the same time, those controlled by the active player are put on lowest, followed by each other player’s objects in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). If a player controls more than one of these objects, that player chooses their relative order on the stack._

In sum, all of the creatures that enter ‘simultaneously‘ actually enter in an order chosen by their controller. All of the triggered abilities that go on the stack ‘simultaneously’ actually go on the stack in an order chosen by their controller.

As for the hypothetical regarding responding to a creature’s ETB and corresponding ETB triggered ability: the creature’s ETB triggered ability goes on the stack when the creature ETBs, however the creature’s ETB triggered ability exists independently of the creature. Therefore, disrupting the creature once resolved will not disrupt the ETB trigger. See Rule 117.7a

_ 113.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability[...]_

In other words, either a Counterspell targeting a creature spell (before resolution) or a Stifle targeting the creature’s ETB triggered ability (after resolution of the creature spell) will prevent the ETB triggered ability from resolving. On the other hand, sport removal such as Swords to Plowshares will not prevent them ETB triggered ability from resolving. Instead, it will merely remove the creature and the independently existing ETB triggered ability will remain on the stack and resolve in order.

WarSpaniel, I should also mention in reference to your specific question, I was referring to a disruption in which Leveler would be exiled from the library via Praetor's Grasp or Thada adel, aquisitor, or a similar effect, so Leveler has never resolved. I’m sorry, I should have been more clear.

In such a case, One could respond to the exiling spell by creating infinite mana to draw the library including Leveler and Altar of the Brood( if Leveler or Altar of the Brood have already been exiled but the player has the Blue Sun's Zenith in hand and Mass Polymorph he/she can still execute a winning combination utilizing What remains in the library. I will clarify this in my write-up. Nice catch.

Also, note that Blue Sun's Zenith is on the chopping block for the next revision of this deck which you will see shortly next week.

Thank you for reading and I hope this helps.

Hahaha ty for the correction that shows how tired I am I literally just named the first two instants that came to mind lol

Vash13, I’m always happy to help. Thank you for appreciating my deck and taking the time to thoughtfully engage.

Thank you very much for your in depth explanation(I really appreciate it). I was worried I was going to be perceived as rude. I was also curious, if you were to incorporate the maybeboard into the main deck. Which cuts would you make? Thanks again, I’m excited to try this deck!

WarSpaniel, asking questions is never rude! I’m still working on the maybeboard. I should have a solid update regarding that later this week (if not sooner)—at that time I will feel more comfortable answering that question. I will let you know when I do. :) Thank you for your interest!

Dredge4life, you will see that I integrated many of your suggestions, especially the recommendation for more mana rocks and See Beyond to tuck a combo piece, if drawn. I wish there were more, better tuckers, but I've included Devious Cover-Up as a multifunction 'tucker' in case milled. I especially agree with narrowing down the win to Leveller and Thassa's Oracle. It is much faster and more competative. In my playtesting, waiting for 3 drakes before attempting to combo off was far too slow. Thank you so much!

vitamintuna, you will see that I also integrated many of your suggestions, especially those for card draw and mana acceleration. I still can't afford Pongify and things of that nature in this list due to a $75 budget. Most importantly, I concede that Mystical Tutor isn't appropriate for what else I could spend the budget on. Long-Term Plans, multiple mana rockas, and Dig Through Time are money better spent for the win. Thank you so much!

In actuality, with both of your advice, this deck has become pretty brutal. for less than $75 it holds its own at a competitive table, which was the goal. I have seen it many, many times, already. It is oppressive in 1v1 as well--which is to be expected.

This deck is extremely effective.

If you're looking for ways to put combo pieces back in, Midnight Clock is a very funny mana rock that not only has the potential to shuffle your graveyard back into your library, but also mulligans your hand for 7 cards.

GoldenGolgari, thank you for your recommendation. I’m seriously going to test this out and see if it works. Have you ever utilized this rock? I can see it backfiring. Thanks!

I use it in my Noyan Dar, the Sneak Attack deck (shameless plug) and it has almost always come in super handy in my experience. There are some times where I wish I didn't have to shuffle a few things back, but usually I come out with much more than I had previously, granted I do have some problems when it comes to hand advantage and draw in that deck. Still, I think Midnight Clock is super underrated as far as mana rocks go considering how much good it has the potential to do.