How worthwhile would the Amulet of Vigor combo line be in a Chulane deck in a competitive setting?

The line typically plays as such:

Have Azorius Chancery and Amulet of Vigor in play (or any of the other 2 mana bounce lands), cast a creature like Jeskai Barricade (there are quite a few 2cmc or less creatures that can fulfill this role), draw a card, put a different bounce land into play and return the one already in play, Amulet triggers and untaps the new bounce land, Barricade type creature returns something like Deputy of Acquittals to hand, tap the new bounce land for mana, play the returned creature, repeat loop to draw out the whole deck.

There's some difficulty in assembling the cards needed for the engine to function in my opinion, but I don't play Chulane in competitive settings and never see this concept in any Chulane decks (competitive or otherwise) and was curious if there's a reason why other than it being difficult to assemble the needed Amulet, 2 lands, 2 creatures and Chulane in a timely fashion.

@jaymc1130.

Amulet of Vigor is a neat tech, but the biggest issue is that Azorius Chancery, (along with the two other bounce lands) are absolutely and entirely unplayable in cEDH. The most important turns in cEDH are the first three, so each and every mana cannot be wasted. Otherwise you will lose the game to a turn three Demonic Consultation+Thassa's Oracle or Food Chain deck. Lands that enter the battlefield tapped must offer an unbelievably powerful effect (such as Boseiju, Who Shelters All), otherwise the mana inefficiency is too significant a cost.

Beyond that, you also want to assess the function of each card outside of the combo in which it is used. Cards that are useless outside of the combo (like Laboratory Maniac or Thassa's Oracle) are not ideal to run. Many decks choose to do so because they need to win, and these are very compact, but if we can avoid it, we will.

The reason I mention this is because Jeskai Barricade and Deputy of Acquittals don't offer any value outside of the combo. In our Cloudstone Curio line, it requires fewer land requirements and fewer creature requirements; Not only that, but it requires cards that we already want to play. It doesn't make sense to play cards specifically for combos, when instead we can play combos that layer into our deck with the cards we already want to be playing.

Hopefully that explanation makes sense.

Sensible enough. Although I generally wouldn't consider Demonic Consultation or Food chain lines all that competitive either. I still can't seem to understand why the cEDH community is fascinated by the Consultation lines of play at the moment when these lines almost always wind up losing the game on the spot for the player attempting the line in truly competitive settings against quality opponents and decks as the lines are far too easy to disrupt in advantageous fashion.

@jaymc1130

The reason the cEDH community is fascinated with Consultation is because it is a highly card and mana efficient A+B combo that is consistent, reliable, fast, and challenging to disrupt.

To be absolutely honest with you, if your experience is that the Consult+Oracle player is losing the game after going for the win, you're playing with players who are bad at playing Consult+Oracle. These lines are tried, true, and tested to be the best of the best. Three mana to win the game and not caring about most hate pieces outside of a Torpor Orb is very powerful.

If a player is attempting to go off and is able to put the Thassa's Oracle trigger on the stack, only then will they try to cast Consult/Pact. This drastically reduces the risk taken by the Oracle player, because now there are only four or five ways to interact with that trigger, none of which are played in top tier cEDH decks because they're not very good. Consult+Oracle decks usually have a piece of protection, if not multiple. Additionally, fast combo decks are based around reading your opponents. If you're good at poker, you understand the value in reading your opponents and being able to put them on certain interaction based on how they've been playing, how they tap, and which mana they leave available. When I played Ukkima Cazur Layered FC/Consult, it's all about understanding when people have interaction they can use, and when they don't. This is also a very useful skill in Chulane since it allows us to identify when we can get a Chulane to stick, vs when someone is happy to use a counter on it.

Mate, if your experience is that players playing the consultation lines are winning a high percentage of the time then the players YOU play with are simply not high quality pilots. My regular playgroup is myself and 3 other ex professional MTG players, with 1000s of cEDH games of data and a century's worth of combined time playing MTG. But you can think what you want of the Consultation lines. The cEDH community tends to stick with the herd mentality promoted my amateur players and I don't expect this to change. I've posted many times about this type of stuff and it always falls on deaf ears.

jaymc1130, can you explain to me a faster more efficient combo that can be fit into any UBx Deck? Oracle + consultation is an extremely powerful combo that is played everywhere in the top decks in the format. The combo requires 3 cards, two of which are tutors... seems pretty strong. 3 to 4 mana wincon's is also super nice. Not gonna lie, surprised all those years of experience haven't enlightened you (No BM)

Apotheosis

How fast a combo is is irrelevant for the most part in cEDH. At least true cEDH where the pilots are highly competent, professional caliber players, piloting extremely well constructed decks. The reason for this is that turn 3 wins are largely a figment of the amateur playing population's imagination. In true competitive settings all 3 of your opponents have interaction for your combo attempt (because the wealth of it available in cEDH is crazy) and this interaction is more mana efficient in most cases than the combo initiation elements (Flash pre banning, Oracle+Consult, Doomsday, etc). These quality opponents aren't tapping out to play an irrelevant card on turn 2 the way the vast majority of the amateur cEDH tends to, they aren't ever tapping out, in fact, after turn 1. Since they almost always have interaction, you have to fight through 3 people's interaction, and they always have mana up for interaction the situations where a pilot could even ATTEMPT one of these glass cannon win lines on turn 3 is basically zero.

Quite literally zero in the case of true competitive settings. Any attempt to do so results in a stuffed attempt, you being tapped out, some of the other opponents being tapped out, most players spending a load of interaction, and the player next in turn order priority typically being able to win on the spot since everyone else is out of gas and they get to untap. While it's important to have efficient combos for these situations where everyone else misplays something horrible and you can then capitalize for an easy win, this is NOT something that happens in true competitive settings. If you're looking at videos on youtube and think things like Commander Clash, Playing with Power, or even Laboratory Maniacs are true competitive games then you would be very mistaken. Lab Maniacs is about the best out there, but they make a ton of mistakes and misplays in every video (in addition to many of those same videos highlighting the point I'm making about the effectiveness of being the first to attempt a combo being a fundamentally incorrect choice, or even the second or third, and certainly a catastrophic misplay when attempted on turn 3 in settings that are even moderately or highly competitive).

Since being fast is largely irrelevant, but being efficient is relevant, it's fundamentally incorrect to attempt fast glass cannon combos in cEDH except in the circumstances where you're opponents are all less skilled pilots playing sub par decks (if everyone in your group isn't playing blue as a color, for example, this is NOT a competitive setting, it's a high power setting at best.) Also, since such aggressive lines are fundamentally incorrect a pilot is always better off playing a more conservative style that focuses on attrition. Since you can't ever (except in crazy narrow, highly unlikely circumstances) force any thing through 3 opponents then you'll win a much, much, much larger percentage of games per 100 played by rolling with a strategy that focuses on running your opponents out of resources to do anything relevant before attempting any kind of a game winning line. In these circumstances mana efficiency is certainly good, but speed with which a combo can be employed is irrelevant, and more important than either is how card slot efficient the win line is (thus leaving more room in the deck for interaction and improving how easy a combo win line is to employ).

We've got over 1000 cEDH games in our database and in that sample size over the last 2 years Consult lines are managing to win about 20% of the time they are attempted. It's a line that, in true competitive settings, will lose the game for you 4 times out of 5. That percentage has come up a little bit since the printing of Oracle, but we're talking 1 and a half percentage points due to the fact that you can't just Abrupt Decay or Swords to Plowshares the Maniac in response to the Forbidden Tutor. Not all that significant since the vast majority of the time the interaction was already aimed at the tutor itself as it was easier to interact with.

@jaymc1130

What is the complete list of decks that make up those 1,000 games?

Quite literally every deck in the format that could remotely be considered tier 4 or better. Chulane has never broken the win rate threshold for even tier 4 so we have very little collective experience with Chulane in these settings, maybe half a dozen games total.

@jaymc1130

What are the strongest decks in your meta? It sounds like you have a huge database of information I'd love to dive into.

jaymc1130,

I really appreciate you taking the time to write this up. With that said, I think you greatly underestimate how fast cEDH is. I win, and regularly watch my opponents win, on turns 3 and 4. It is no magic Christmas land I can assure you. The reason being, sometimes you are just not lucky enough to have interaction (being you may have used some already), you never had drew It, or the RNG God’s failed you.

You are correct when you say there is a wealth of counter magic in cEDH, and it is inexpensive or free. Of course, a good pilot will understand that he/she will be playing against opponents who run a similar suite of interaction. Thus, most combo players wait until they also have a piece of interaction to make sure the combo can go throw. It is foolish for you to assume that all players are just going to pass their first several turns to hold up interaction. In most magic games, the first 2 turns are for setup with the rarer occasion that someone attempts to go for the win. I would also argue against the assumption that everyone will be able to interact with you. Most of the time you just have to fight 1 or two people. This also depends on how early you decide to try and combo off. A good pilot will understand the decks he/she is playing against and when they have a chance to combo off early. In some situations, people will tap out to cast their “irrelevant” cards like Sylvan Library, Rhystic Study, their commander and so on. There are very powerful plays people will sometimes tap out for early knowing other players will have interaction.

There will be players who are smart enough to leverage your own interaction against you. For example, I know player B wants to tutor and grab x card for their combo or whatever, Player C has interaction and and I have no idea what player D has. Since the table knows player B’s plan, I can make the clever tempo play to shoot past the other players who will now have to be holding up/use interaction. There are so many ways to play around this world in which fast combo decks don’t exist. Players aren’t going to just stop playing the game because they are afraid someone has interaction. It seems the only imaginary world is the one where players cease to play the game because they want to gangbang the first person who tries to win.

Since you say there is a zero chance a fast combo deck can win early, what is your meta like that prevents this? If everyone had the mindset that they must not be the first, second, or even third player to go off, how does anyone ever win? If everyone is waiting for everyone else in a “true competitive setting” then no one would every attempt to win. How does that make sense? Lol People will attempt to win whenever they feel like they have an advantage they want to exploit. Where I play, we also have a large database of information. 49.63% of games end on or before turn 5. So speed and efficiency of the combo matters significantly (speed can also be translated as low mana cost or cheap). Decks that have an early average goldfish speed (turn 3 average), when going first, have a considerably higher chance of winning the game than their opponents (for example, 65% percent of turn 1/0 wins are won by the person who went first, this flattens out over the game to a steady 15% higher chance of winning until turn 6). On average, player 1 tends to win 35.15% of games. Many players want to leverage the advantage of being one of the first two players to take their turn by crafting a very fast deck that can fight through interaction.

Here are some more statistics for ya from our database: Inalla SS (which runs the consult combo as a backup in their ultra fast list) has over a 40% winrate (only over 50 games though so not large enough sample size but you can see the point), some of the other top decks in the format Najeela (WR: 25.39%) yuriko (WR: 30.98%), kess consultation (WR: 17.31%, most of its wins are on turn 3), curious control, First sliver food chain (WR: 32.1%), opus thief (WR: 32.71%) and the deck that plagued the competitive community oracle hulk (pre-ban), all run the consultation oracle backup plan because the combo is cheap and efficient. It does not require a lot of cards and it fits well into just about every list. You also don’t need to win fast with the combo, you can sit around play police if you want.

Also, your statistics don’t make any sense. Why would the win percentage of the consult package only increase 1.5% with the addition of oracle (even jace if you were not counting him)? The printing of oracle made lab maniac irrelevant in many lists (people are now running oracle and Jace, which funnily, gets around both of the cards you mentioned). Oracle wins on the spot from an empty library while lab maniac required you to be able to draw, effectively lessoning the amount of cards you needed to win (same thing can be applied to jace). Furthermore, the way you order the cards is so that the players have to counter the consultation instead of the lab maniac type of card. This means, if your combo gets stopped, you didn’t have to exile any of the cards in your library. This way, you can just pivot to another wincon, potentially another lab maniac one).

TL;DR: Fast combo is a real architype that is not only prevalent but also good in highly competitive metas. Consultation lines are powerful combos that require practically no setup, they layer with other strategies, the forbidden tutors are actually good cards, and the combo is cheap/fast.

Apotheosis616

I don't think you fully appreciate the difference in skill play from your typical "cEDH" playgroup and a playgroup that consists, exclusively, of ex professional MTG players.

Our first 2 turns are generally set up also. Mana dorks, fast mana, maybe a cheap card advantage piece, but we are never, ever, EVER tapping out to do this. We're all running decks that contain 16-25 pieces of interaction. We all know we have it, or could be bluffing it, but some one definitely has it and a single piece of protection for our attempt is not ever going to be enough. Worse, when these over zealous attempts are made the table turns into an instant speed interaction war with everyone slinging things around and, as stated earlier, the very next person with turn priority wind's up with a commanding advantage. We aren't avoiding going for the early combo attempts because they get stuffed (the decks are redundant and resilient enough to recover), we aren't going for these attempts because the overwhelming majority of the time it grants the win to the next person in turn order priority.

We've played all those decks you list from your sessions, and not a single one you listed is tier 1 and posts even a 25% or better win rate in our group. And this over much, much larger sample sizes. The types of concepts these decks employ that allow them to win that quickly or only ever effective in the presence of less skillful players playing less well constructed decks and often less effective commanders. Hell, for the last 2 years in our playgroup Flash Hulk had a win rate under 25% (by the month of December 2019 it was in fact under 17%) because the Inception strategy simply dismantled it time in and time out. Something you have to keep in mind with data that's collected is that there is always an inherent bias in it. Tourney data for cEDH is sparse (at best, it's almost non existent compared to the other formats) and this means people have to rely on their own. For most playgroups this presents an issue because the data collected is not a result of the most skilled players in the format (or the game in general) piloting these decks and that data will contain certain flaws because of this. Just the same, OUR data set is also biased, though we take some rather extreme steps to drastically limit the bias and the pilots in question have lifetime success at the highest level of MTG competition (where most playgroups will never participate in a match with players who have earned lifetime pro points).

When our win attempts come they are typically a result of two things: 1) the table knows (or can reasonably surmise) one player has assembled a win in hand and will win for certain on the next turn they have so the table attempts their own before the cycle returns to them. Or 2) one player has secured enough of a resource advantage to be able to fight down 3 opponent's worth of interaction in the same turn. The third possibility, which is limited exclusively to circumstances where we are playing glass cannon all in combo decks, is that we force the attempt early because it's the only way the deck can actually win (Gitrog, Doomsday, Flash combos pre ban). This third possibility does not, did not, and never will result in consistent wins. It's less than 1/5th of the time. Closer to 1/6th. It tends to work when these combos can be employed on turn 1 or 2, and not at all turn 3 or later. These are decks that are designed with an over reliance on tutors and board delayed set up that present a major play pattern issue that such deck construction cannot resolve. They are forced to use tutors to search up the combo elements and postpone board state advancement in order to attempt to win that quickly and this makes these strategies extremely vulnerable to hand disruption and wheel effects as well as Extract that was central to the Inception strategy. Now we don't play that tactic as much these days because of the existence of Veil of Summer and the play patterns that card created, but even without the targeted hand disruption the overly tutor reliant play patterns proved too exploitable and over a large sample size of games that over reliance proved a significant detriment.

As for why Oracle's addition was so insignificant in helping those strategies, this was already addressed. The situations that Oracle's existence solved were the situations where Lab Man or Jace was in play, Forbidden tutor on the stack, and those pieces were hit with removal. This was already a very low percentage occurrence, so Thassa's Oracle doesn't change much and the primary means of stopping those lines is still interacting with the Forbidden Tutor itself. In the play patterns I describe where players play more skillfully and conservatively this makes these cards essentially dead cards in hand 90% of the time for the Consultation line player and playing a resource down is a big deal at that level of play.

Let's just start with something really simple, something incredibly fundamental and basic and see how you respond to the following situation. This will help gauge your competitive fundamentals and may help highlight why some of the things I'm stating are stated the way they are.

Here's the scenario:

There are 4 players in a pod. Turn priority is Shimmer/Doomsday Zur player 1, Dramatic Sceptor T&T player 2, Kess Consult player 3, T&V Curious Control player 4. It's currently turn cycle 3, Zur player's turn. They have a tapped Underground Sea and an untapped Tundra in play, a Chrome Mox in play with an exiled Ponder, an Imperial Seal in the graveyard, a just resolved Dark Ritual (tapping Underground Sea) in the graveyard with that 3 black mana used to cast Doomsday which is on the stack and 2 remaining cards in hand. You're player 2, you have Tropical Island in play untapped, any random fetch land untapped, untapped Birds of Paradise that is not summoning sick, tapped Mana Vault, untapped Grim Monolith, untapped Mox Opal. Your remaining hand consists of Counterspell, Chain of Vapor, and Vampiric Tutor. Kess, player 3, has an untapped Mana Confluence, an untapped Fiery Islet, a tapped Sol Ring, and a tapped Arcane signet, with a Preordain in the graveyard that previously bottomed both cards on their last turn, and 5 remaining cards in hand. Curious Control player 4 has a tapped Bayou, an untapped Command Tower, an untapped non summoning sick Deathrite Shaman, and a Carpet of Flowers with 5 cards remaining in hand. Doomsday is on the stack, you have priority, what do you do and why?

Joking101

T&T lists with Dramatic Sceptor and Power Monolith combo have been the best performers by far. For most of the last 2 years these lists, in various iterations, have posted close to (and for some stretches of time even over) 40% win rates. About the best any other deck archetype has managed in that time frame is 26-29%, sometimes iteration dependent. None of the meta standard staples post even a 25% win rate in our group with Flash Hulk having been extremely poor (aside from the Shuffle Hulk iteration which was at 24%) and well under 20%, the so called "boogey man of the format". Post Inception meta Najeela decks tended to post the second or third best win rates on the most consistent basis, but they those lists did have some poor match ups and the other 25%+ decks were generally UBx shells that included the Inception package and focal strategy though lack of access to Thrasios and Tymna was a significant reason why their win rates tended not to top 30%. Emry has managed a 26% win rate the last 5 months or so, which I've found nifty since it's the only deck that's my personal solo creation.

jaymc1130, The more I read from you the more I think you are trolling or have a very warped sense of what's actually good in cEDH. It's starting to sound like you have a very inbred meta. I took the liberty to look at your decks and your cEDH primer. Your emry deck, which has a "26%" win rate has less interaction than my fast combo Ukkima list: Chain Stalkers. In your own primer you say "Emry Forgeworks is a fast combo deck at heart and has the tools to consistently and reliably employ it's combo win lines explosively". Does this go against what you have been saying this entire time lol." What a troll haha

If you want to actually have a discussion come join the discord, maybe you and your ex-professional friends could share some of your knowledge with the community. It seems we are on very different pages. And to shed light on some of the members, we also have ex-pros who play with us too. Competitive EDH Discord

Apotheosis616

As expected you resorted to the standard insults and foolishness and proved yourself a simpleton as many "cEDH" posters before you have. You've proved beyond any shadow of doubt that you're no where near the level of skill our players are at by avoiding even an attempt at answering the question posed because you completely lack the capability to understand what that situation entails. It's very safe to say that any opinion you have on what you think is "cEDH" isn't worth considering because you're clearly clueless.

That Emry deck functions as the fast combo deck, yes. Because mono colored decks do NOT have access to the tutors or interaction required to be top tier competitive. That deck is not tier 1. It's flaws and faults are addressed as part of the primer and those things are acknowledged. Those decks must make sacrifices in order to have any success and Emry functions on the axis of being the aggressor, landing an Emry on turn 1 or 2, and forcing everyone else to play in the fashion I describe because any turn with an active Emry could result in a win for the Emry player, it's that consistent about engaging a combo win line from turn 2 on if left unchecked and every player must leave up interaction to handle the threat this poses from that point forward or until some one finds a way to nab the Emry. You cannot comprehend these types of things because you lack the skill and experience required to understand them.

Which brings us to the answer to the question posed in the theoretical situation, one you could also not understand and thus elected to avoid answering out of fear of exposing yourself for the less skillful player you clearly are. So, let me enlighten you because EVERY player I have ever seen outside our playgroup that plays "cEDH" misplays this situation, analyzes it incorrectly, and you see this major misplay mistake in literally every Lab Maniacs video and every game of "cEDH" you have ever played and you've never even realized you were making a fundamental error every single game you've ever played.

In that situation the answer is clear and obvious. The Doomsday player must have protection in hand, and must have one of the remaining cantrips or draw effects in hand or this would not be line they are playing. The odds heavily favor them having exactly Counterspell (or Mana Drain) and Gitaxian Probe. There is a slight chance it could also be something like Brainstorm or Preordain and Swan Song or Dispel. If they did not have these as the last 2 remaining cards then attempting that play into 3 remaining players with mana up is suicide, and even WITH those as the last 2 remaining cards attempting that line of play is a MASSIVE fundamental error that will lose them the game 80% of the time (this is the exact line of play most of you, your companions, and the "cEDH" community at large take when in this situation and it's always fundamentally incorrect).

Now, in this hypothetical scenario you are the next player in turn order as a T&T Scepter deck with a counter, a tutor, and another piece of interaction in hand. You would, and literally everyone one else posed this question, always has given the same answer: Counterspell targeting Doomsday. This decision is so fundamentally incorrect it's crazy, but EVERYONE in the "cEDH" community elects for this option in this situation and gives bad reasons why. In this scenario the fundamentally correct choice in TRUE competitive settings is to pass priority on Doomsday and the reasons are obvious to players of my playgroup's caliber (and apparently no one else). First, as we already deduced the hand of the opponent casting Doomsday we know, without doubt, that a single piece of countermagic interaction will not be enough to stop the line of play, if this is the only piece of interaction among the 13 cards held between you and the remaining two opponents then the game is lost. Second, both of those opponents are running decks that contain around 20 pieces of effective interaction, or 1/5th of the deck. They both have 5 cards in hand. The odds of BOTH of them having a way to interact here is so statistically likely (especially since both have untapped mana available and blue mana at that) that it's almost a certainty unless both kept very bad hands (unlikely in true competitive settings) and are bluffing as their only available option. Third, BOTH opponents have, on the board, pieces that respond to the stack, which is even more important at our level of play than having a particular answer to a particular scenario in hand. Clearly, given this situation, the obvious correct choice to make is to pass priority because this wins you the game on the spot a massive percentage of the time.

The most likely continuation is that the Kess player (assuming this is a competitive player of our caliber also) also passes priority, regardless of whether or not they have the ability to interact with Doomsday as it's on the stack. They are not last in turn priority, the burden of interaction is not on them. The final player in turn priority (the T&V player) is the one who MUST interact with Doomsday or lose the game on the spot. Since we will also assume this player is a competitive player of my group's caliber we'll assume they make the correct decision here. If they can interact with Doomsday, they elect to do so using what ever piece of countermagic they have available (there is a slight chance that they might have relevant interaction that is not countermagic that could be played after Doomsday resolves to stuff the line, but this is not likely and post Thassa's Oracle printing a risky line to take. If they can interact here with the Doomsday, they will, because it's the only fundamentally correct choice that remains). In the unlikely event they do NOT have countermagic then the game is NOT over because the other players passed priority. This is a TRUE competitive setting, we understand stack manipulation, we know that this is what is happening and that the T&T and Kess players are forcing the expenditure of resources from the T&V player inefficiently. The T&V player must activate Deathrite Shaman to put a trigger on the stack, reset priority, and find out if one of the other opponents was bluffing in order to not lose the game but tap out completely to do so (in which case only Force of Will could potentially remain in their hand to interact favorably).

Now, the same situation occurs, and once again, as the T&T player here the correct choice is to pass priority to the Kess player and again elect not to interact with Doomsday (once more, the single piece of countermagic held in hand will not be enough to prevent Doomsday resolving, Kess must have something for it too or the Doomsday line wins). Once again, around 80% of the time Kess will have something to interact here and, as the burden of interaction is now on them as the last player in turn priority with untapped mana available to interact, must elect to do so in order to not lose should they have some form of interaction (unless Force of Will + pitch card are in hand). In the event they do NOT interact here then the game, once again, is NOT over. This is a true competitive setting. They have the ability to interact with the stack, they must elect to do so and tap out to sacrifice Fiery Islet to draw a card.

If this highly unlikely point is reached (again, roughly 80% of the time BOTH of those players would have had interaction available in hand to interact with Doomsday), then the game is still not over. It's possible this was a naked Doomsday attempt and the Doomsday player had nothing to back it up but was afraid this was the only opportunity to attempt a win as the T&T player has Grim Monolith on the board, a load of untapped mana, and the potential to resolve a tutor that might be in hand to find Power Artifact for the win on their next turn (which is exactly what we happen to have in this spot). In this situation, you finally elect to Counterspell the Doomsday, if the Doomsday player can counter back they will, and if they can't then T&T is assured of it's win on the next turn (assuming no Force of Will related bluffs from the Kess or T&V players) because they sequenced properly, in a fundamentally sound and correct fashion, to run the other players out of resources before attempting a win line.

Now, the most likely scenario is that BOTH the T&V and Kess players had interaction for Doomsday, and correct passing of priority caused both of them (since the burden of interaction was on them and not the T&T player) and the Doomsday player to expend all their remaining resources in a counter war that prevented the resolution of Doomsday and resulted in the turn passing to you as the T&T player with no one being able to interact, a tutor in hand for the end step to find the last combo piece, and the resources to employ that combo on the next turn with everyone else tapped out. But rather than play this situation correctly you will see 100% of alleged "cEDH" players misplay around the stack in this situation (literally every Lab Maniacs video you see this and it just makes me cringe these days because it's so unprincipled and they've never once realized it's a mistake they make every time they play, more than once a game.) and fail to realize the fact that because of a fundamentally incorrect Doomsday attempt the win was granted to them as the T&T player.

You, and literally every other player ever posed this question by our group, has elected to take one of two options: avoid answering entirely because the question utterly confused you (as you lack the ability to think the way professional caliber players think), or they elected to say "I counter the Doomsday, duh". Never, not once, not in the last 4 or 5 years, has any one ever mentioned the correct way to play this situation or ever referred to stack manipulation as a critical component of true cEDH because, quite simply, the cEDH community is almost exclusively made up of casual amateur players who do not comprehend the game at this level of play. And the worst part is they never will, they never intend to, they prefer to remain sheep wandering aimlessly with the rest of the herd. At this point it's probably clear to you that there are wolves out there also, rare, but around. And we will eat you for lunch time after time after time. And you're probably even more upset now than when you posted your last insulting post. You'll probably resort to another after being exposed in this fashion. I've seen it a thousand times or more. It's what you folks always do.

@ Joking101 : Sorry if this response kinda detracts from our conversation or your list's thread. I apologize for the inconvenience and the annoyance if any offense was taken. I have difficulty in these situations responding to open hostility and insults levied about recklessly calling others trolls in the most hypocritical of fashions. Our conversation is probably best continued in private where it's already started and sensible, respectful parties can converse without such rudeness being enacted upon them without cause or justification.

“As expected you resorted to the standard insults and foolishness and proved yourself a simpleton...”

Okay, read that again but slooooowly

jaymc1130,

Lol, This guy is a troll hahaha. Kinda funny you are diving so deep into this little troll world of yours. I hope you had fun typing up that entire essay lol. I guess we will just have to disagree then lol. It seems your skill level, although you believe it to be top tier, is simply a figment of your own imagination. Come play some real cEDH games and we will see how good you actually are. All I see is big talk and insults coming from your end, it seems you are very insecure and find that you must take up the burden of defending what you believe is the true style of the format lol. So much so in fact, that you must insult others who simply provide a differing opinion. Silly it is, how the folly of the arrogant is so easily manifested in their actions and speech.

Instead of trying to dismiss and theorize nonsense, come and actually play vs skilled players (lol you can assume they are bad all you want, just makes you seem afraid for some healthy competition). Here is the discord server a lot of games get played on. You don't have to play with me if you don't want, there are plenty of other players who will kill you on turn 3 xD cEDH Nexus.