Juppe,

I'm having second thoughts on cutting Swan Song. I need counterspells in this deck. As opposed to cutting a counterspell, i'm going to share some thoughts on some alternative cards. I'd appreciate it if you could give me your thoughts on the following:

• Undermine - It's a neat card, but not necessarily competitive enough. At least in EDH.
• Plasm Capture - The supposedly "fixed" mana drain. I think it fits the theme of the deck, but I'm concerned that it's not competitive enough.
• Arcane Denial - This was in the deck once upon a time, my only issue with this spells is the fact that it awards the opponent with two additional draws on their next turn.
• Force of Will - Also used to be in this deck, but I upgraded to a Mana Drain because there's simply not enough in the deck to support this.
• Forbid - This seems like it would be a good fit in here, as it can be reused on a semi-consistent basis. I think of the cards previously mentioned this is probably the best contender of the bunch. It seems perfect for EDH.

Forbid seems like the best of the bunch, but have you considered Disallow as well?

Delta-117, actually, no I haven't considered Disallow. That's an amazing spell. It's one use, but maui wowie it targets everything. Now I'm on the fence between Disallow and Forbid.

Disallow

• Cons: One time Use.
• Pros: Targets everything.

Forbid

• Cons: Can only counter spells.
• Pros: Potentially re-usable.

This is a tough set of choices. Disallow can stop a combo from going off. While Forbid can just keep getting reused. I feel so conflicted, and I don't know which one to go with.

Delta-117, after much deliberation I decided to go with Disallow. I'm in no rush to pick it up, so i'm going to play the long wait on ebay. I'm going to go ahead and update the decklist anyway, despite still running Swan Song in paper. I wish the card got the same treatment as Yahenni's Expertise or even Voidslime. But oh well, it's still a good card.

Delta-117, sorry to spam you but I'd like your thoughts, or rather anyone's thoughts on the following:

Should I swap Negate for Voidslime?

Negate:

• Pros: Is very cheap CMC wise leaving me with more options with it in hand.
• Cons: Doesn't target creatures, which can hurt when needing to counter a commander entering play.

Voidslime:

• Pros: Can target virtually anything.
• Cons: Is a much more expensive card CMC wise. Basically, is a strictly worse Disallow but it's still very good. Plus the alternate art for Voidslime looks amazing.

But yeah, I'm kind of having a tough time with this one. To add more context this deck is meant to be the most ideal set up for a Sliver Overlord commander. Therefore, I need to have the best and most efficient plays available to me at all times. Sometimes that means having spells that cost less CMC wise despite not quite being able to target and destroy everything. Mind-thoughts on this matter from outside the hive would be much appreciated.

Oh i'm sorry, I thought I had got back to you on this, I admit I had completely forgot because of school and all. Negate I think is fine to stay with for the reasons you listed, being able to hit creatures could be useful and all, but unless your seeing a lot of high impact, need to be dealt with creature threats in your meta then I think the cost reduction will be helpful. Plus you now will have Disallow already anyways.

I went to an Iconic Masters draft the other day and anyways, a friend beside me opened a Mana Drain, and meanwhile I opened a Thundermaw Hellkite :(

Delta-117, I decided to just stick with the Negate. I'm done making changes to the deck- all that's left is acquire the foils. I just purchased a foil Mana Drain from ebay for $158. I'm anxiously waiting for it to arrive. For the price it was A steal, but still expensive as hell. I'm sorry to hear about your draft woes, I know your pain. This is why I don't buy boxes and rarely do drafts. Normally, I just buy singles. After reading up on the subject I've gotten pretty decent at spotting counterfeit cards.

Thanks for your input on Negate though, I had my doubts for a moment, but it's a solid spell worth keeping. I think this list is it. Once I get Sol Ring, i'm done. No more high-priced acquisitions...at least until more Slivers arrive.

I assume we have high hopes for the next MTG set based in Dominaria for new Sliver Creatures...I would like some tri-color slivers... most decks already run 5 colors and it would be fun to get the best of the wedges and shards in sliver form...

I would ditch the Unnatural Selection. It's a wasted card slot - you already have Amoeboid Changeling which is tutorable. You'd be better off running an Eladamri's Call or a Chord of Calling or similar to increase your ability to tutor creatures and remove some reliance on your commander. That or a Phyrexian Arena or a Necropotence.

Hello. This deck is one of the neatest decks I have ever seen. I was toying with the idea of ally tribal with General Tazri, and started looking at sliver decks because they are also 5-color tribal decks that get better with more creatures. After reviewing your decklist and reading your description I have fallen in love. Thank you for sharing this to the world.

Also, Oblivion Stone seems really slow and generally not good, yet it is in your highly tuned list. Would you mind explaining why?

Also, Gemstone Mine and Engineered Explosives don't make sense to me and Path of Ancestry seems like a good addition if you can deal with the entering the battlefield tapped.

Sorry, last question. Why do you care about the top of your library so much? I see the manipulation, but no payoff.

DiabeticFire: Top of deck manipulation is good for fixing your draws. If you every turn you could pick the best one out of three cards, you've increased the deck's ability to answer problems/draw into win conditions. And things like Scroll Rack let you turn crap cards into value with the aid of fetches/shuffle effects.

Hello all,

Thanks for the replies and attention to my deck page. The hive appreciates it.

• Mythwind, high hopes indeed for a new array of slivers. The return to Dominaria is currently set for April 27, 2018. I will be paying very close attention to what Wizards will have in store for that set. While Dominaria is not their home plane, they do have a pretty significant presence there.

• enpc, I can agree that by itself Unnatural Selection is kind of a worthless card. Without the commander, it would be a waste of a slot. But despite that, I want to keep it. Here's my assessment of the card, and my reason for keeping it:

  Pros for Unnatural Selection

  With Overlord on the board, for a paltry I can steal any creature on the board without the need to untap anything. So with an infinite mana combo in place, yes I can play every sliver in the deck, but I can also steal every creature on the board as well. Amoeboid Changeling does have it's advantage of being tutorable via commander, BUT it can only be used potentially once per turn if Paradox Engine is not in play.

  Cons for Unnatural Selection

  I can agree that Unnatural Selection can easily fall flat on it's face without the commander in play. Worse yet, Crystalline Sliver basically shuts it down. It's tutorable, but at a high cost - I'd have to use up my Enlightened or Vampiric tutor.

I can agree that the slot can be substituted with something else, but its overwhelming synergy with my commander makes it so worthwhile. I made a Mizzix of the Izmagnus player scoop after I took his commander using Unnatural Selection and my commander in a game of Emperor. With that kind of impact in a game I am very hesitant to swap it out. Your suggestions however, are very nice. I don't have a Eladamri's Call on me, but I do have a Worldly Tutor. I used to have a Necropotence and a Phyrexian Arena. Chord of Calling is interesting, but I also have a Wargate. I might try experimenting with that.

Last, but certainly not least DiabeticFire. Welcome to the hive. Thank you for the +1 and the nice compliments. Curious about why I have Oblivion Stone? I agree, it is very slow, but it is very far from being not good. It's primary power is that it gives me significant influence on the board. For a mere I make other players hesitate to play their best options on the board. With Sliver Hivelord in play, I can keep my creatures while I wipe the board. Also, the best part is that I can keep permanents I deem necessary with fate counters. tl:dr - O-stone lets me intimidate others, and do selective board wipes.

• Gemstone Mine - So, yes those depletion counters can hurt but the pros outweigh the cons.

  Pros for Gemstone Mine

  Gemstone mine taps for any color, comes into play untapped, and doesn't hurt me like City of Brass or any of the Shock lands would.

  Cons for Gemstone Mine

  The land has mining counters. In three uses I'll lose a land.

This land provides me some excellent mana fixing early game. Since slivers are 5 color, having access to the right mana early on is invaluable. Sure, it stinks when the land goes away...but it's worth it to establish a board presence early on.

• Why Engineered Explosives? Simple. It's highly versatile mass removal. It targets all non-land permanents that cost so I can tailor the mass removal to be anything I please. For example I could just remove all tokens and 0 cost permanents from the battlefield. Normally this would be a suitable anti-aggro mass removal option, but I have had great success with this card dealing with token decks.

Reducing dependency on your commander (in the forma of adding additional tutors) is always the better way to go. While some competitive decks run cards like Gilded Drake to shut down very commander focused decks, they usually devote a single slot to it. The problem is that while it's cute and all, my counter arguments would be (above and beyond your own "cons" list):

• Emperor is not hte best place to gauge a card's ability in (unless that's all you play)

• given infinite mana, you should be winning the game that turn, unless you create a proper hard lock (i.e. each opponent has no permanents). Stealing creatures is not the same - I have decks which can win with no creatures on board.

• outside of combo, your focus should be on advancing your win condition. Stealing a pesky creature every now and then is fine, but you already have changeling for that. Devoting extra crds is a waste.

• adding additional ways to get Paradox Engine / Mana Echoes (in the form of your mentioned Wargate) is a much better strategy as you advance your win condition very quickly.

I think you won't miss it if you cut it, but you will notice more tutors. Just my two cents.

enpc, thanks for the clarification. But I have to ask, is there a reason outside of mana cost that Mirri's Guile is better than Kindred Discovery, because I would always rather have the latter.

Cost is always a big factor. Turn one plays are super relevant. The other thing is that Mirri's Guile does not require any other cards to function with it, whereas Kindred Discovery needs creatures of the named type. Because judging a card at it's best sets a bad benchmark. You need to look at how well the card will get you out of trouble.

So I have spent a while doing some research, and I have found a few things that I want to pick your brains about.

• First, new from Ixalan is Unclaimed Territory. It enters untapped and makes any color of mana, as long as that mana is spent on a sliver. It seems to me to be a upgrade to Gemstone Mine.

• Second is Steely Resolve. I haven't yet piloted the deck so I don't know how difficult it is to obtain and protect Crystalline Sliver, but this seems like a good second version of the card.

• Third is Cover of Darkness. It makes the entire brood extremely difficult to block, which could come in handy if Sliver Queen or some other combo piece gets exiled and you need to win through commander damage or combat damage.

• Shared Animosity follows a similar vein of logic as Cover of Darkness, helps you get more damage through when you need to.

• Urza's Incubator Gives a cost reduction of for only to cast. Seems great to me.

Also, I built my own version of this deck. I do not have the original duals, so I replaced them with the Shadowmoor/Eventide filter lands. In addition, I made the following substitutes for budget reasons. (I tried to get each substitution to fill a similar role but I just dont have the library manipulation cards, so I went with ramp and card draw)

• Mana Drain => Arcane Denial

• Pact of Negation => Swan Song

• Vampiric Tutor => Demonic Tutor

• Patriarch's Bidding => Living Death

• Wheel of Fortune => Windfall

• Yawgmoth's Will => Magus of the Will

• Engineered Explosives => Blasphemous Act

• Mana Crypt => Fellwar Stone

• Oblivion Stone => Nevinyrral's Disk

• Scroll Rack => Prismatic Geoscope

• Sensei's Divining Top => Distant Melody

• Mirri's Guile => Phyrexian Arena

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated thanks!

enpc, you make a compelling argument for the removal of Unnatural Selection. I have to admit, i'm feel more and more convinced that I should swap it out. However, the Emperor example was a poor one. Allow me to submit another: During a game of Multiplayer (6 opponents I believe, including myself) commander I stole The Gitrog Monster and proceeded to bash that player with their own commander. The ramp and card draw The Gitrog Sliver provided was magnificent. It enabled me to play more and more slivers that in turn made me an absurd threat. All the other players at the table were also afraid to play their commanders for roughly 3 turns before I reduced that poor Gitrog player to nothing. So, again you can see why I'm hesitant to remove that card.

If I were to remove that card however, then for tutoring options there is only ONE choice here: Demonic Tutor. Amazing card that is overdue for a reprint. This is minor, but what frustrates me is that the DCI judge promo for this card is roughly $300. That as far as I know is the only foil instance of that card. I want it, but not at that price. The last planned high priced acquisition on my list is Sol Ring, and i'm kind of looking forward to it being the last one of this deck but I digress...I still do agree with you that Demonic Tutor would have more of an impact. I'll pick up a cheaper copy sometime and test it out. I won't make an official change until i'm ready.

DiabeticFire, thanks again for keeping up with my deck and i'm flattered that you would like to pilot a version of your own. In this post i'll address your card suggestions, as to my thoughts on your card choices i'll address those in a later response.

• Shared Animosity - This card seems to be more at home in a aggro deck, however I still want to give it some consideration. My deck has a slant more toward control, but it is indeed a midrange deck. Perhaps this is just the thing I needed to help give me a more viable aggro strategy when some of my combo pieces get removed. I want to test this card out. For now, it's in the same lane of consideration as Diabolic Tutor for a possible replacement for Unnatural Selection.

• Cover of Darkness - This decks is already packed with evasion in the form of Shifting Sliver, Galerider Sliver, Winged Sliver and to a lesser degree, Striking Sliver and Bonescythe Sliver. This card does add another option, but the evasion options for this deck are already very well populated and aren't in need of more options.

• Unclaimed Territory - interesting that you'd compare this to Gemstone Mine when it's really a strictly worse Cavern of Souls. I do see your argument that not having to worry about mining counters it's primary advantage over Gemstone, it's draw back just simply doesn't make it worth it as there are plenty of other cards in the deck that aren't slivers. What could hurt more is not being able to play a Counterspell when needed. I'll think it over, but for now I just don't see it as a viable replacement.

enpc, regarding Demonic Tutor being swapped in for Unnatural Selection all I can say is that you were absolutely right. Tutoring vs. Control Magic is no contest. Tutoring wins out every time.

Now, onward to DiabeticFire's questions about their deck and card choices -

The incorporation of filterlands are an excellent start, incredible lands for the price. However, I think you're missing out on the Shocklands, Dual colored cycling lands and Battle Lands. They're all far more affordable than original duals and on top of that they are all typed. That means you can get the most out of your Skyshroud Claim or Nature's Lore.

As for your individual card suggestions, i'll address them all one by one:

• Mana Drain => Arcane Denial: I'd consider Forbid over Arcane Denial, the one thing i'm always weary of is giving my opponent cards. Sure, they'll be less salty towards you when you counter one of their wincons, but giving them options isn't always a good thing.

• Pact of Negation => Swan Song: Perfect choice here. I can't think of anything better.

• Vampiric Tutor => Demonic Tutor: Aw come on. $10 more and you'd have the vampiric. Honestly, in this case...why not both? But I can understand that it's painful to pay so much for just two cards. Another less costly option would be Wargate, Infernal Tutor or Worldly Tutor.

• Patriarch's Bidding => Living Death: Perfect swap.

• Wheel of Fortune => Windfall: A shame WoF became so expensive, but Windfall is a solid substitution.

• Yawgmoth's Will => Magus of the Will: I'm having a hard time thinking about what to suggest for this one, perhaps Past in Flames?

• Engineered Explosives => Blasphemous Act: so the idea here is to have some surgical mass removal. Originally, Harsh Mercy took this slot but it was not very effective. Now given the surging popularity of tribal decks, that card is even less useful. I'd suggest In Garruk's Wake. Also you have the bonus of picking up a sweet promo art version of it.

• Mana Crypt => Fellwar Stone: Fellwar was originally in this deck as well. Honestly, I'd suggest you try and acquire a mana crypt anyway due to it's relatively recent printing in eternal masters. I know it's expensive, but the recent re-printing brought the price down to the cheapest i've ever seen. I honestly think that Prismatic Geoscope should take the slot here though.

• Oblivion Stone => Nevinyrral's Disk: Oblivion stone is only $5 or less right now. I'd say go with the Stone.

• Scroll Rack => Prismatic Geoscope: So the point to Scroll rack is to have top deck manipulation. Something to get you to the right card at the right time. Geoscope isn't going to do that. Some suggestions would be Crystal Ball, Darksteel Pendant or even Future Sight. That last one was a bit out there, maybe go with the ball.

• Sensei's Divining Top => Distant Melody: So, Sensei's is strictly top deck manipulation while Distant melody is all about card draw. Melody is the strictly worse option here due to it being dependent on creatures being in play. A well timed mass removal event can make Melody utterly worthless to you. I'd go for something like Kindred Discovery if you want to go in on draw.

• Mirri's Guile => Phyrexian Arena:A solid choice here. Instead of choosing the card you want, you just draw an extra card. I'd say that's a solid choice.

Hope my suggestions were useful to you. If you think any of my thoughts were bad or good, let me know! I always enjoy talking about about Slivers and magic. But mostly Slivers :P

Looking at your landbase, is there a reason you're not playing Unclaimed Territory , Ancient Ziggurat, Exotic Orchard and Path of Ancestry ? They all seem potentially better than Gemstone Mine, Cascade Bluffs, Flooded Grove, Mystic Gate, Sunken Ruins.

Rian, re-reading my previous comment (now deleted) I think I made a simple explanation way too complicated. Let me re-try.

Is there a reason you're not playing Unclaimed Territory, Ancient Ziggurat, Exotic Orchard and Path of Ancestry?

• Yes. It's because they're all strictly worse than Gemstone Mine and all the other 5 color lands I placed in the deck. This deck is designed to be the most efficient tribal sliver edh deck possible. The previous cards you mentioned ether come into play tapped (Path of Ancestry is too slow) OR are dependent on factors that are outside of my control. Basically, if I needed access to mana but i'm facing a mono red deck, then Exotic Orchard is of no use. If I need to play something that isn't a creature (and not colorless), then Unclaimed Territory, and Ancient Ziggurat are wasted slots.

None of the lands you mentioned are better than Gemstone Mine, Cascade Bluffs, Flooded Grove, Mystic Gate, or Sunken Ruins.

• Why? Because the lands you mentioned have limitations based on factors entirely outside of your control. The filter lands and Gemstone Mine don't have such limiting factors. You can spend the mana they produce on anything your deck plays. Not just creatures - your mana options are not limited when you absolutely need to play something.

My thought was that you probably play at least one sliver per turn anyway (but I may be mistaken), in which case Unclaimed Territory guarantees that you have the right colors available to play those creatures and is always used to play creatures anyway, much like Sliver Hive and Cavern of Souls (that point could also be made about Ancient Ziggurat). In that case, the drawback of only producing colored mana for the purpose of casting creatures doesn't seem to be much of a drawback.

Furthermore Unclaimed Territory also produces colorless mana and can still be used to pay for the ability of Sliver Overlord or any other colorless mana-requirements. Therefore, at least in the case of Unclaimed Territory , it seems to do the job better than Gemstone Mine and the filterlands, since it produces all five colors of mana for your creatures, is mostly used to cast creatures or to pay for the ability of Sliver Overlord anyway and doesn't have a restricted lifespan.

That all depends on the premise though, that you play creatures/use Sliver Overlord fairly often. I agree that Exotic Orchard, Path of Ancestry and Ancient Ziggurat may cause some bumps in the early game that could be avoided with Gemstone Mine, although it seems like quite the drawback to me that it dies after three uses.

Hi LVL_666,

Just want to ask Training Grounds ability can work on Homing Sliver??

The mana discount ability from Training Grounds not only can work on creatures that already on battlefield??

Thank you.