Femme_Fatale, I don't like that ability. It feels like Tribute... But with you as the Tributer..... It just feels too much like Tribute.

nighthawk101, I like those cards! Which means, I also like the mechanic "enliven" :) I think it is cool. Maybe a little underpowered though...

KalvinHobbez, yea, it feels a little too much Simic. I think we kind of want to make it like Golgari. But we need to beware, that this shouldn't be another Golgari type...

I feel like -1/-1 counter manipulation could have been utilized by the Thannallids because -1/-1 counters have been in Golgari colors a lot, especially in New Phyrexia. So why not?

The ability was me describing why +1/+1 counters should be better than -1/-1 counters for the growth ability NorthernRaven.

KalvinHobbez, the Thannalids aren't golgari or phyrexians though. They are different. What separates the Thannalids from the Phyrexians is that they don't disassemble or "conscript" everything else into their race. What separates the Thannalids from the Golgari is that the Thannalids are more natural, nature shamans rather than just residing in the grave and filth and reanimating zombies. What separates the Thannalids from the simic (as some feel they are close to that) is that the Thannalids use their growth to utilize what nature has given them.

The Thannalids grow, as they are Fungi, so +1/+1 counters. But they utilize spores to grow their fungi in corpses to control them, creating Fungus Shamans, thus the reanimation effect. -1/-1 counters just don't fit as the Thannalids aren't a plague. They are a intelligent version of the natural growth of decay.

I feel like there isn't exactly a rather dark tribe, though. Each tribe is all goody two shoes, the Thannalids resurrect the dead for only their own living purposes and make gruesome walking corpses...I feel like they could be considered evil :3

In flavor, -1/-1 won't make sense...but in mechanics it'd work in pretty well. What if the Thannalids take from the weak to give to the strong? Thus they might give +1/+1 counters to bigger creatures or bigger creatures give -1/-1 counters to others.

Sorry Femme, but I have the bad habit of doing what I'm about to do because I used to be in debate...

First, you first said that threaten shouldn't be used because it wasn't golgari-like, and now you are trying to say Thannalids need to be different from the golgari.<-One reason -1/-1's make sense, because they are, for the majority, unlike golgari and golgari's +1/+1's. Second, you said yourself that Thannalids are an intelligent version of growth and decay.<-Another reason -1/-1's make sense because; that growth is fueled off of the decay, so while the objected the fungi is growing on decays, it causes the fungi to grow, changing constitution and traits. For example, if a log starts growing fungi on it, it starts to decay, so it's constitution lowers, but at the same time it's traits change. If you consume it, it might very we'll be poisonous and make you sick. Third, the threaten that Kalvin proposed would have effects on the creature itself, not external effects. So, instead of an effect such as your example-"destroy target non-black creature," it would be something that changes the creature itself; like-"This creature gains deathtouch."

I'm just going to repost what I said about -1/-1 counters earlier ...

Let's look at it from a playability stand point. No one wants to choose an effect if it requires weakening the creature down. People would rather choose between two beneficial effects. Take these two cards for example:

• CARDNAME
• Creature - Fungus Shaman
• ABILITYNAME 3 - When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, you may put 3 +1/+1 counters on it. If you don't, destroy target nonblack creature.
• 2/2

OR

• CARDNAME
• Creature - Fungus Shaman
• ABILITYNAME 3 - When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, you may put 3 -1/-1 counters on it. If you don't, destroy target nonblack creature.
• 5/5

Which would appeal to the average player? The card that makes the killing a creature seem like a downside? Or the card in which it seems like killing a creature is the normal effect and that you can choose not to kill a creature for an upside?

You also have to examine the counters from a design standpoint. There are VERY few -1/-1 counter matters effects in mtg. Wither, Infect and Persist are the only ones. Ask yourself this, why is this so? And now let me provide you an answer: Designing cards around -1/-1 counters is a lot harder to do than with +1/+1 counters. +1/+1 counters are simple, easy, and don't come with the potential drawback of the creature dying. You can have effects that are incorporated to give +1/+1 counters more than you can have effects that give -1/-1 counters, and conversely, have effects that remove +1/+1 counters more often than you can have effects that remove -1/-1 counters.

Most typical Golgari things are primarily black splashing green effects. In the case of the Thannalids, they are green splashing black effects. That is why we are trying to focus more on the positive than the negative effects.

When I meant that it wasn't a golgari themed effect, I meant that it wasn't a themed effect. When someone mentions golgari, they mean the colour combo, not the guild itself. The effect entirely, not just -1/-1 counters, doesn't fit in with the colour scheme of BG.

Since we can't decide on threaten, maybe we should just not use it. Sorry Kalvin, I really liked the idea too. That being said, what about something that is similar to Xathrid Slyblade. The mechanic could be something like:

(Mechanic name)-(: This creature gains deathtouch and -1/-1 until end of turn.

Well something like adding +1/+1 counters alike Tribute could maybe work. I mean its less interactivity among players but eh.

Well, the problem I have with the tribute-like one, is that it is pretty much exactly like tribute, only you get to choose, which seems to good for cards that will be commons.

So.... What do we end up with?

I want to suggest lemmingllama's suggestion of:

Ungrave X (Remove X +1/+1 counters from target creature you control: Return this card from your graveyard to your hand. Activate this ability whenever you could cast a sorcery.)

And with Entomb, because that seems the most popular.

I would be very happy to run Entomb and Ungrave. We can always run some Tribute type cards as well, but without naming the mechanic and just leaving them as mode cards similar to Hooded Assassin.

Yeah Hooded Assassin actually is kind of like my original idea, but my idea had -1/-1 counters. But we could probably just have a +1/+1 counter version. I'm alright with Ungrave and Entomb I guess, I assume Ungrave would be a bit of a lower cost...but I do find it a bit weird. I'll just see how it is in play testing in the future if we use it.

I'm assuming that Ungrave cards would be between 1-3 counters to return it, and we will have enchantments/instants/sorceries that add counters to bolster the theme. (see what I did there?)

Also -1/-1 counters are primarily a black ability, and we are focusing more on the green side of the Thannalids. I'm sure we can still add in some -1/-1 counters, but not for the mechanics themselves.

I think Ungrave could work. The question is, should we leave it how it is(remove the counters from one creature you control) or should we make it be able to- remove X counters total from among creatures you control. That way if there is a high Ungrave cost, you could remove counters from more than one creature.