Hrmm... all right, thanks, that helps. I never would have thought of Immortal Coil... Definitely seems like it's worth siding for burn (at least at my locals, hah...)

Though, how is Riddlekeeper not modern legal? I didn't see it in the banlist...

Immortal Coil is great vs both Burn and Infect: if you happen to have Mesmeric Orb too on the battlefield, they must remove it; and in a pinch, you can mill yourself with your cheap spells while pointing the big ones at the opponents. You just have to survive until turn 4, vs Burn with Disfigure and Crypt Incursion and vs Infect with Disfigure and Darkness. It's still not easy, but it's the best we can accomplish; not accounting for the fact they will often have a removal for Immortal Coil. But it is still better than Spellskite because vs burn Spellskite does too little, and Infect has plenty of ways to deal with it: Nature's Claim which Infect can even side-in regardless (not recommended though) because of our high artifact count, and Dismember and Twisted Image which Infect can again side-in regardless (not recommended though) because of Hedron Crab. Of these cards, only the first is a matter of concern for Immortal Coil.

As for Riddlekeeper, Commander sets are not Modern legal.

Heey im experimenting with creating an effective mill deck myself so you thread was very informative.

I also think that speed is key and at t4 your goal should have been archieved. Here is al link to my deck I have yet to playtest it though

https://deckbox.org/sets/1532572?mobile=0

Idea is to dump my hand asap and have Thing in the ice be staller and Whispering Madness a Mill and cardreplenisher. Some feedback would be awesome!

Thanks Gambuto. Replied on the link you provided. ;)

because I think you're overthinking things. The deck in the link went 8-0-1 and the exact same deck made top 8 at a PTQ a couple months ago. After navigating the wall of text about why you can't play deck and be successful, I realized you are overthinking it, while expecting the strategy to be 100% capable of handling any type of curve ball. I hate to say it, but the game doesn't work that way.

I went to a local tournament, with the deck in the link - minus the fetch/shock lands - and went 7-1-0 by the end of the night. I should have gone 8-0-0, but because my last opponent was slow playing we timed out. Not everyone can play this deck or strat because it takes a great deal of patience and understanding on when to do certain things. Perhaps that is what is really going on here. I've played just about every type of mill strategy over the course of twenty years of playing this game, and if you know what you're doing, you can make it work. Granted, you'll have bad match-ups and there is nothing you can do about those - every deck has a counter match-up. I can tell you that Tron sucks at handling Land kill, for instance. I played a Ponza deck against a Tron player, who had at least four times the money invested in his deck and I wiped the floor with him.

The point is, if I were to construct a wall of text about why Deck X won't work due to the simple fact that every card/strat has a weakness, no one would play the game. May I recommend creating a primer about how the deck CAN be successful and how to play it properly? I don't think it's necessary to turn people away from the strategy or tear them down because they want to try it out. Afterall, Lantern Control is a mill deck and it has won multiple pro tour events, Star City Game events, and various other PTQs.

There's a lot of very interesting information in your description about card choice and playability, but ultimately it sounded a little condescending and highly negative. Plus, it was information overload about a rather simplistic strategy. I hope you find a strategy that is better suited for your style of play. Good luck :)

Nethereon, I do accept that every deck can be successuful once in a while: Mill is not an exception. What I say is that, for a series of reasons, Mill cannot have a win rate comparable to tier decks (either in a 'vacuum', or in a realistic metagame).

How can Mill be successful? It can win frequently in a format where Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Leyline of Sanctity, Hatebears, Infect and Burn are almost absent. It wouldn't hurt that there were no delve cards like Tasigur, the Golden Fang, creatures relying on graveyard such as Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze and Knight of the Reliquary or pesky permanents like Chalice of the Void or Blood Moon: but these are but minor problems. But this is obviously not the time: Infect is very real, and the other cards or strategy see play too in a way and in an extent that we can deal effectively not even with little part of them (because they are so many and diverse).

I don't care about how Lantern Control is placed: this is not the goal of the article.

While the strategy can be simplicistic, the way for concluding that certainly wasn't; and the way to make it work and refine it took a lot of argumentation, as you see.

Don't insult me insinuating that I cannot make Mill work because 'I don't understand a thing about it' or because 'it is not a streategy suited to me'. If you have a critic remark to make about what I wrote, then make it; just don't go around randomly attacking people.

Peisistratos,

I'm sorry you felt insulted, but, when the majority of your post was constructed in such a manner that makes it sound like you'll lose no matter what, I found it as condescending, irresponsible, and disingenuous to the current state of the game. Yes, there are major threats out there, Emrakul being one of them, but there are also answers to these problems. This post did not show any of that. In fact, it devolved into a structure of "this is your choice, this is how you're going to inevitably lose" and this goes on line by line. How is that constructive? How does that make people want to play the strategy and find new ways of accomplishing success? Simply put, it doesn't and that's the problem.

There's a difference between evaluating the current state of the game, then supplying solutions to these threats, but to twist it in such a manner that portrays it as "you're going to lose no matter what" is simply not constructive. I mean after all, you're playing blue and black! There is Summary Dismissal, Leyline of the Void, Lost Legacy, untold numbers of counterspells, bounce spells and other manner of removal. Heck, Damnation wipes out many of the threats you seem to think have no answer at all. If you're not willing to go at it from the "Problem - Solution" method, then you're not giving people information that is meaningful, in a constructive manner. What does it sound like? It sounds like someone who isn't successful and is now whining about it. You sound very intelligent, and have a great deal of experience with the strategy, use it to help people win rather than telling them they'll never win, except under a few token circumstances.

And for your information, Lantern Control decks are a perfect example of Mill being Successful in a format where you say the strategy isn't even viable, except under very few miracle-esque situations. Come on now. I've been playing this game for too long to just give up and tell people "You'll never win because cards exist and this game is hard!" That's not being a good steward to the community, nor is it in the best interest of those who want to take risks and create new innovative strategies.

I'm just calling it the way I see it. If it doesn't sit well with you I'm sorry, but when evidence exists that is contradictory to what you're saying, then well...what you're saying isn't inaccurate. You provided a great deal of good information. The card choices and possible threats was very valuable, but when you went off on the "you'll lose because..." it truly made the entirety of your post pointless. Why go to all that effort of providing this information if you're just going to say "don't do this because it sucks and you'll lose,"?

Sorry, the link didn't publish. Here is another reason why you're not being fair to the strategy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JErkpLXzwg

Netheron, if we consider a scope big enough (that is, a 'long-term' win rate, against variable/unknown metagame) you'll find out that yes, Mill will lose no matter what: even if Mill became a thing, everyone would just throw an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn in the sideboard, which alongside with their main game-plan (which in same cases, sadly too common now, is already unbeatable by Mill) would make the situation ridiculously unmanageable to the Mill player, since we need several hate-card in the deck vs shuffle effects while still being able at the same time to fend off their strategy AND milling. Were we ever able to attain the impossible, they can still add a Progenitus in their sideboards, which needs different answers than the ones useful against shuffle effects. And they didn't dedicate much space to beat Mill (1 slot, 2 at most being optimistic): they can still be competitive against other decks.

Am I giving up? Against this scenario, yes: I cannot think of anything useful for the Mill player to do in that pinch. But I always leave aside that scenario: Mill seems, at this stage of reasoning, at most a rougue deck -- a deck that can steal wins only if the field is not prepared to face it. Can Mill be successful in a tournament? Yes: it can be extremely lucky, or its pilot could simply have had an illuminating read of/premonition on the field -- building his maindeck and sideboard accordingly. I hope to have shown in my work that against an unknown metagame Mill is awful: too many decks have free-wins (or practically so, as I 'love' to remember) against it.

Am I disingenuous? A reason for me to writing here is that I hope someone can suggest me something I missed, so that at least I can get to play the deck I love where usually it is not advisable to do so. I think I really thought of everything, yet I HOPE I am simply being disingenuous.

Am I irresponsible? The loads of arguments I provided, which I think cover the subject under every possible aspect, should suggest the opposite. But, again, please show me if I forgot something!

My work is meant to be constructive in the sense that I should speed-up the acquaintment with the strategy in order to met the readers needs: if a player wants to just mill while still trying to win the most he can (what I call 'play a deck competitively'), I think this guide provides the best way to do it; if a player wants to play Mill in order TO BE competitive, this guide should turn him away from it.

How does my guide make people want to play this strategy and find new ways of accomplishing success? It suggests that a player should play Mill ONLY if he thinks he has an illuminating read of the field and thinks that Mill wins against the most part of it (building his maindeck and sideboard accordingly, obviously).

I think I explained sufficiently why the answers you propose are uneffectual (alone and combined). I will not reply to your argument: "There are a ton of different answers: surely there is a combination of them that is effective to our ends".

Lantern and Mono-blue Mill are out of the discussion: you will excuse me if I quote myself here (the very first line of my primer): "The aim of this page is trying to determine the best Glimpse the Unthinkable-based strategy available in Modern, and design the optimal list accordingly[...]".

I think I answered to all your points. Bye :)

"True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance." ~Akhenaton

Ditch the Hedron Crabs. They're too slow and you won't have enough triggers to successfully benefit from them, instead run defense like Fog Bank to curb early and mid-game aggression, along with Jace's Phantasm. BOTH OF WHICH are mill staples, regardless of whether or not it is mono-blue or blue/black, deal with it! Run fewer lands, somewhere closer to 20, because your curve shouldn't top out higher than 5 CMC. Run Jace's Archivist for obvious reasons. Think about it, if you don't like your hand, you can use the Archivist to get new cards. Psychic Spiral is an excellent card to get back your graveyard after milling the crap out of yourself from Sphere and Archivist AND it will mill your opponent in the process.

For your information, I played my mono-blue deck at an FNM recently against a B/G Delirium deck. My opponent dropped Emrakul, took over my turn and milled me out. Did I concede? NOPE! I won the game. I had Psychic Spiral in my hand and they had no way of dealing with it. During my upkeep, I dropped it, got a brand new library, milled them out, and GG.

I'm tired of trying to help you and convince you that your overly hypercritical mentality is wrong. You don't want help, you want validation that you're right, and despite all of the copious amounts of evidence I've provided to contradict your ludicrous mindset, my attempts have been in vain. My time would be better served explaining string theory to my cat.

Every deck loses, every deck has bad match-ups, I mentioned that before, but that doesn't mean you should toss in the towel. This is your mindset "Mill will lose no matter what." Delirium loses, Jund loses, Mardu loses, Jeskai loses, every archetype loses and will be out done now and in the future. To say that a deck will lose, is one of the most Captain Obvious comments on the planet. To say a deck will lose no matter what it does, is the most immature thing I've heard in a while. Stop whining. If you want help, then listen. If you don't, then delete the deck and live in your vacuum.

I'm really done trying. Good day, sir.

Netheron, since your whole point is off the mark, I will not reply to your post.

I hope to read other comments from other readers about my page though.

I said good day, sir!!!

Wow, really in-depth description, kudos. I did want to make a few comments though. I realize a lot of people use them but the Shriekhorns always felt so slow to me, are they really necessary. Have you considered the inclusion of Isochron Scepter? By putting a mill spell like Glimpse the Unthinkable or even Tome Scour on it, you have a repeatable source of mill with way higher value than the Shriekhorn albeit for more mana but that might free some spots for protection. Two more cards that might work well are Psychic Spiral which could shore up your late game and serve as a finisher or Psychic Strike which can act as control/protection and mill at the same time.

Captain_AHat, thanks.

You cannot exile sorceries with Isochron Scepter. If I had to raise the curve a bit I would add more Breaking / Enterings for the Shriekhorns, but that is not the case. Shriekhorn doesn't look great, but it fills most of the roles Mill needed: good mill card at 1 mana, instant mill, mill spreadable in more activations.. there are cons, but these functions are too useful (especially the first).Psychic Spiral: you already don't the the time to cast Archive Trap (and when you do it is sufficient), and you need to play Archive Trap.Psychic Strike: counterspells don't solve any of Mill's problems. And Mana Leak would be better in any realistic circumstance.

what about Sadistic Sacrament in the sideboard to basically fetch a target for Surgical Extraction?

Wurmlover I am not sure I understood your suggestion..

+1 for the longest description ive ever seen also one of the most detailed ones. :)

Thanks frogkill45, I am most grateful for your appreciation. :D

Great primer! And yes, don't play Mill if you want to win in Modern (learnt that the hard way)!

I can suggest a split between 2xDisfigure and 2xDarkblast for the sideboard since Darkblast is enough to kill mana dorks and most creatures in Infect and some creatures in Affinity. It is also a recurring source of removal and can occasionally fill the graveyard to delve for Set Adrift or to fuel Immortal Coil.

zephyr_chang thanks!

About Darkblast, Set Adrift is always sufficently fueled by the cards already played; it can certainly do wonders with Immortal Coil, but the price is not being able to hit any the creatures of Burn (spending only 1 mana at least) and bothersome (which is quite a understating term in this case) creatures from Hatebears (Thalia, Guardian of Thraben aside). It is a really bad bargain.

However, I'm writing a radically update version of the primer (with a new decklist) in which I advocate giving up the Infect matchup if you really want to play Mill or you find it to be a good (humpf!) metagame call. As a consequence of this and other considerations, those types of cards will be totally cutted from the list. (The possibility of recurring Darkblast is not enough to make trying to beat Infect worth any effort).

I won a fnm playing mill and it wasn't just some low tier decks. I beat tron, uw control, infect, grixis delver. Some matches you just draw well and mill so fast they can't compete

frogkill45 congratulations! :D

It's true (and delightful :) ) that Mill has some explosive draws. However, your matchups aside from Infect were the most easy you could run into: Mill preys upon those kinds of deck. I'm impressed you beat Infect though. Good work!

omg this looks awesome. I'm trying out my own Mill deck, and I suggest that you should use traumatize. good luck

Thanks Doomskull.

Traumatize is not usable. By turn 5 you should have already won or cast Archive Trap for the victory; anyway, your opponent library should be almost empty by that time (making Traumatize useless).