Hey mmcgeach, seeing that you have an anti-combo build you may be the right guy to help me, what you think its stronger against a combo meta, counterbalance or arcane lab?

Ps: I already use Top and Trinket Mage, I have a Control Reanimator Zur.http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/zurs-vanity-case-tempocontrol-cedh/

VelvetVendetta, you present a reasonable question. I'm liking Counterbalance a lot lately, but without sensei's top it's not as powerful as Arcane Laboratory. Arcane Lab stops any combo except some graveyard loops that generate infinite gravestorm and usually use Blood Artist to wipe the table (like Flash into Protean Hulk, Boonweaver Giant lines, Leonin Relic-Warder + Animate Dead, etc). But those can all be shut down with Rest in Peace and friends. Anyway, since those combos only cast one spell, they're also harder to stop with Counterbalance, since you only get one flip for it. Although, Ideally, Counterbalance can stop opponents from casting any spell, not just one per turn.

Mostly, the answer is Arcane Lab unless your meta is all hulk decks.

Reanimator Zur is a cool idea, btw. I just think Rest in Peace is too strong in the meta now to give that up.

Thank you for the answer, if you could, please take a look at my Zur, the description its a bit old but it covers about everything the deck wants to do.

I already found a slot for Arcane Lab and that's Imprisoned in the Moon, I used it a lot before when I had 2 Narsets in my meta, but now both Narsets are gone and there's no shrouded menace to turn into land, aside from that I've added Sinister Concoction as a discard outlet so I have 1 more removal that Zur can fetch (aside from grasp).

But I'm still struggling to find Counterbalance a slot and would be nice to have an oppinion from someone who understands that Zur is a strong control general from outside my meta.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/zurs-vanity-case-tempocontrol-cedh/

As far as my long experience in playing Zur I learn a bunch of things that might be useful to you.

Firstly Vanish is unnecessary because people will shot Zur down if they have removal even before Zur is able to fetch Vanish, meaning that every time you are able to fetch Vanish, is because people don't have removal or don't care to remove Zur, so its virtually only protecting you against sorcery speed removal, which is scarse and not worth the slot, if you are worried about protection you might wanna use Diplomatic Immunity, although I recommend using things that can protect Zur BEFORE he hits which can be used for other things, like Spellskite and protection counterspells like Dispel and Misdirection

IF you are going to use Darksteel Mutation, then Imprisoned in the Moon is almost a direct upgrade since it prevents the creature to sac'd for sac outlets, flashbag marauders and exiled with Swords to be recasted, if you want to lock something, then Imprisoned is the best way of doing that. Imprisoned also had (in corner cases) been usefull dealing with powerful lands like Gaea's Craddle or a Stripmine that would kill my Reliquary Tower next turn.

Daybreak Coronate is just not necessary (if you are not using the Vigilance to lock people with Stasis), the condition to only enchant something that is already enchanted matters as you will need to spend 2 Zur hits to fetch it, its just not worth it, if you are worried about firepower then Copy Enchantment would likely be better to kill people faster, is also more versatile.

@VelvetVendetta It's a fair point about Vanish, I mostly think you can cut it if your opponents don't run boardwipes, like, say, Supreme Verdict, which is otherwise difficult for Zur to dodge. I think you also make a strong point about Imprisoned in the Moon, which is probably just better than darksteel mutation. Also I might try Spellskite, although Cursed Totem is a pretty key card, IMO. Might be worth using spellskite even though cursed totem is a key play.

I find Daybreak Coronet pretty good just for the lifegain. I frequently need to draw a bunch with necro, then regain life somehow and I think lifellink on a huge Zur is pretty much the best way to gain life I've found. It's possible something like Felidar Umbra or Eternal Thirst might be better, tho.

I recognize the problem with lifegain as it is something that troubled me before, but now my meta has evolved to be very combo-centric and my life totals ceased to be a problem.

If you find to be completely unreasonable to take daybreak coronate out, then include stasis to make the Zur vigilance lock, its a powerful tool to have and the main reason to use daybreak.

I've used Oketra's Last Mercy and Vault of the Archangel for a time, they're some solutions you could try to see how it works for you.

One last idea about the problem on lifetotals is to use Kor Haven to help mitigate the damage you suffer.

@VelvetVendetta I appreciate the insight. (Also, I wanted to say I'm considering your reasoning on Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth which seems like it might be good for getting color out of reliquary tower and hall of the bandit lord, although, mostly, I don't need a lot of black.)

I don't think I can run such mana-intensive life gain tricks, my meta is pretty fast and I usually need to hold up a counterspell every turn.

I don't think you can neither.

That's why I don't run any lifegain anymore.

Vault of the Archangel is not be used every turn ofc, its just for the turn you are hitting with Empyrial Armor + Reliquary Tower + Necro, this way you would gain 20+ life back easily. Thing is, if the meta is too fast you just can't use actual slots dedicated to lifegain, that's why including solution on land slots is the path I ended up trying.

In any case, since you are still using Daybreak I would certainly run Stasis, remember you only need 3/4 strikes to take someone down with Zur, the stasis can easily buy you that time.

How often your opponents have plains?

Yahenni's Expertise could replace Massacre depending on the meta?

@VelvetVendetta, yeah, in my meta it's pretty often. There's Derevi, Sisay, and like 4 tymna+ decks for sure, so at least 60-80% of my meta is white, on a given night. I'm almost the only player that doesn't play green, so I'm beginning to really prize the Pyroclasm effects. Going to try out Massacre and see if I like it. Playing it for free early or mid-round just seems insanely awesome. Should let me deploy a threat that curtails my opponent's strategies while also holding up countermagic to protect it.

Seems really awesome on the meta you just described, and by the decks you spoke there's also not reason -3 would be more relevant than Massacres -2.

Btw I have a final word on the mox diamond. I considered our chat and decided to speak with whole playgroup (at least the most competitive players) to ask for their insights and turns out both of us are right on our stances.

Thing is, no one in my meta has money to afford a Timetwister and only one deck runs Windfall and Wheel of Fortune (the Kess Storm), that means all (not red) competitive decks are build around the mindset that if your gas its over, its most likely over forever, that mentality shifts the deckbuilding choices towards making sure the gas last much longer which in turn ends up producing slower decks (but more resilient to hate) than what we see on Lab Maniacs meta.

That's the main reason they defended that Mox Diamond is not a necessary card on my meta specifically, in any case I added the Gemstone Caverns as it won't take away any consistency precious slot for it.

And one more thing, I completely remade my description! adding a new leonin combo, if you got time check it out and give me your criticism.

Cheers mate!.

@VelvetVendetta So I got to try out Spellskite and it was very good. Although, this is partly because someone was playing an infect deck with a lot of targetted creature pump, which was blanked by the spellskite. Still, I was pretty impressed with how many effects it could steal... Definitely a good addition! Thanks!

@mmcgeach Just wait until you play against a Derevi ;)

Its a great card, being able to protect Zur and just our rocks and/or enchantments in general is great, but yeah he doubles as a stax piece against some combos.

mmcgeach how good is Stifle on a 1-10 scale 1 being "meh, its ok" to 10 being "you must use it"?

@VelvetVendetta: I find Stifle really good. I can usually use it to save Zur from something (from strange things, recently Mouth of Ronom and Fleshbag Marauder, although more typically from Gilded Drake). You can also use it to disrupt most combos - Protean Hulk, Leonin Relic-Warder, Razaketh, the Foulblooded, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, etc. Would have been great against a Kederekt Leviathan-Animate Dead lock I played against earlier this week. It can also slow down stuff like an opposing Zur, Sisay, Arcum, Selvala, etc. Occasionally it saves you from something really devastating on a creature, like Bane of Progress. I guess it's around the 8th-best counterspell in this list.

@VelvetVendetta: I find Stifle really good. I can usually use it to save Zur from something (from strange things, recently Mouth of Ronom and Fleshbag Marauder, although more typically from Gilded Drake). You can also use it to disrupt most combos - Protean Hulk, Leonin Relic-Warder, Razaketh, the Foulblooded, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, etc. Would have been great against a Kederekt Leviathan-Animate Dead lock I played against earlier this week. It can also slow down stuff like an opposing Zur, Sisay, Arcum, Selvala, etc. Occasionally it saves you from something really devastating on a creature, like Bane of Progress. I guess it's around the 8th-best counterspell in this list.

@VelvetVendetta: I find Stifle really good. I can usually use it to save Zur from something (from strange things, recently Mouth of Ronom and Fleshbag Marauder, although more typically from Gilded Drake). You can also use it to disrupt most combos - Protean Hulk, Leonin Relic-Warder, Razaketh, the Foulblooded, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, etc. Would have been great against a Kederekt Leviathan-Animate Dead lock I played against earlier this week. It can also slow down stuff like an opposing Zur, Sisay, Arcum, Selvala, etc. Occasionally it saves you from something really devastating on a creature, like Bane of Progress. I guess it's around the 8th-best counterspell in this list.

Im considering running it on the EE slot, EE its fine but too slow, ends up dragging me back on tempo as much as my opponents most of the time

Im currently deliberating between Stifle, Disrupt and Preordain.

Nice rewrite too mmcgeach!.

I have a question related to your deck (actually about mine, but your experiences might help), I notice that you play relying only on empyrial armor and RIP combo, how's that working out for you? Sometimes do you feel the game is controled but you still can't win fast enough? Because I had this problem before I added my Altar combos.

I ask this mainly because I'm thinking of removing those combos because they are just way too convoluted to assemble under pressure and against enemy interaction when needed, I'm even considering the doomsday shell you suggested early.

Do you have any other ideas of fast-ish win conditions for me (and you?)? Not doomsday ones?

@VelvetVendetta The two combos I run, while they look slow, are actually terrific. I just added a section on "win conditions" to address this.

Basically, the two win conditions I have really overperformed. I thought they'd be weak, and I spent time looking for other wincons, but I now think you don't need them. Having less dead cards (like redundant or tertiary wincons) also makes the whole deck better, by increasing the amount of interaction and business the deck packs. I mean, what are we at here, 3 total dead cards? That's insane.

But, I think the fastest wincons I've seen are Demonic Consultation + Laboratory Maniac, at 2 cards and 4 total mana is pretty good, and it's pretty hard to disrupt. That also has overlap and synergy with Doomsday. I also like Ad Nauseam + Phyrexian Unlife / Angel's Grace, although there again you probably want to use Lab Man for the actual win (although people have suggested Sickening Dreams and even Repay in Kind, but that seems horrible.) I don't think you want to go with infinite mana combos like Dramatic Reversal and Isochron Scepter or Lion's Eye Diamond and Auriok Salvagers. I'm not sure. The other interesting wincon in Zur is the artifact-storm one with Hurkyl's Recall, Helm of Awakening, and Aetherflux Reservoir. But, that's pretty hard to assemble.

Not sure what's best.

I know I've said it a bunch of times by now but Stasis would be really awesome to ensure your voltron plan will work despite how much time is needed, I won so many games with it that I can't really figure out why would you run Daybreak Coronate without it, the vigilance to couple with stasis is what makes that card really strong, with the lifelink being a bonus on top of it.

@VelvetVendetta re: Stasis.

I just have never wanted this. I don't think I've ever lost by the time I have Zur enchanted with both Empyrial Armor and Daybreak Coronet, which is the only time Stasis would be useful. Just seems too much like a "win-more" card. I'll try to consider over the next few games if it would help, but I'm not super optimistic on it.

Very nice, Cartouche of Ambition is way better than Daybreak if you are not planning to run Stasis anyways, still, are you sure you absolutely need a lifelink enchantment? I mean with Zur already hitting for 7+ why not just rely on Solitary Confinement to keep you alive?

I anticipate you would answer "but I want to draw more cards with Necro", my answer to that is "are you sure that's really necessary?" Seems like the epitome of a win-more case, you should be able to win with the first 20 cards (I win most games that I'm able to fetch Necro early, almost all of them tbh)

I missed my lifelink when I decided to drop it but over time I adjusted to this new reality so if needed I will fetch for confinement before things go really south, that is, if I cannot just draw 20 and kill people before they have their chance to kill me.

Perhaps you have a lot of blood pod on your LGS with Ruric Thars and Mirror Entities trying to chop your head off but even in that case I would go for more removals/wipe instead of a lifelink answer.

The key for dropping the lifelink is acknowledging that the cases you most need life, desperately for a "round two necro" are also the cases things are going south and you are most likely not able to hit with (or even cast) Zur at all, or perhaps locked in some combination of aven mindcensor/blood moon/stony silence, meaning you cannot benefit or fetch the lifelink anyways to get you out of this situation.

Whilist the most of the cases you're able to hit with Zur multiple times and use the extra life to draw even more cards with necro are usually games you would most likely already win just by hiting with Empyrial Armor and holding off with Solitary Confinement if things get a too scary.

I would also probably go for Rule of Law instead of Arcane Laboratory because of REB (and variant), the decks that run it are exacly the decks that would be most interested in destroying the lab effect.

but I suppose that's a completely meta thing.

If you want to increase your clock Copy Enchantment is a very versatile enchantment that can double your Empyrial Armor.

I also testing Dimir Charm as a way to cheat my counterspells count and removal in the same slot, it kills Aven Mindcensor and Containment Priest and in some cases Scavenging Ooze should work well enough for me for those reasons, idk about your particular list tho.

NOTE: Counterbalance worked so damn well in my meta.