I'd probably up the Kalonian Hydra count by two and take out 2 Renegade Krasis . Since you have black, maybe consider some removal, but the reason I say more hydras is that it and the Krasis do effectively the same thing, but the hydra does it much more efficiently.

I like both in right now and I upped the Hydra count, but I'll be sure to see how they do together before Renegade Krasis is going to be out. Yeah I like having black in here for removal- but what should I use? Doom Blade , Putrefy , Devour Flesh ... too many choices.

I would drop the 2 Bow of Nylea for Thassa, God of the Sea , it really hurts a lot more when you can swing in with an unblockable Kalonian Hydra but that might just be the meta around my store, which is overrun with Pack Rat

Yeah I'm not too sure about Bow of Nylea as of now, and Thassa, God of the Sea would be great, but I don't have money for her now. I've been thinking about the opposite of that though with Nylea, God of the Hunt (who I own 2 of) and the Bident of Thassa as they work well together as well. What do you think? Or even Aqueous Form to get some unblockable in here that is much cheaper then Thassa.

Cool brew, I love the Biomaster/Menace combo. My biggest suggestion would be to replace the 2 Bioshift on the side with 2 more Golgari Charm since control is your weakest matchup and those are invaluable for both Regenerating vs Supreme Verdict and destroying their Detention Sphere . Bioshift is a neat trick with Corpsejack, but in the end it's a 2-for-1 waiting to happen.

I'm also not a huge fan of Savage Summoning, which again just invites 2-for-1's. Since you're lacking any life gain, I might suggest Predator's Rapport to replace it.

I always like Simic Charm in these kind of decks. It may be better here than Syncopate since it's basically a 2-cost hard counter against removal that is much more flexible.

Finally, you might want to add 1 more source of draw power, which is vital to maxing out the Biomancer and Prophet. Jace, Architect of Thought is a great option that's a little lower on the curve than Garruk. You could also just go all out with Prime Speaker Zegana .

I keep on trying to make a quite similar deck run, I just think the corpsejack is a bad idea like the others say. 2-for-1...I'm not saying mine is better (haven't play tested it at fnm yet) but take a look and see if it gives you any inspiration. Because as I see it, we're in the same BUG boat.

Master biomancers count it up!

I never said that Corpsejack is a 2-for-1 (still a 4/4 if nothing else), just Bioshift and Savage Summoning since the opponent can effectively take out 2 cards by killing the one creature that benefited from those cards.

Corpsejack depends on having synergy with a deck to be effective, but that is certainly the case here. You might argue that it's a "win-more" card, but its synergy with Evolve, Master Biomancer, and Kalonian Hydra can certainly be the difference between winning and losing. For example, a creature-heavy deck might be able to stop an 8/8 Hydra, but good luck taking on a 24/24 trampler.

Hey thanks for commenting!

In response to ChrisHansonBiomancin:

More Golgari Charm , got it. I love that card but I also love Bioshift . I understand the two for one but it can also save one's counters by removing them at the last second to put on another creature. Would it be worth checking out Death's Presence and hope for the Experiment One 's evasion of wrath?

Simic Charm is great, and I realize I need some in here but where I do not know. I like the chance to counter as I come across many situations when I need to, but the chance to make my creatures hexproof is counter enough. It's going in.

I realized through playtesting that card draw is in fact this decks downfall. Garruk, Caller of Beasts is too little, too late do to his expense. I may use either Bred for the Hunt or the Bident of Thassa along with Nylea, God of the Hunt in order to get some more card draw. Either that or Elusive Krasis and one of those enchantments. What say you?

And yes Githyankin I'm going to keep the Corpsejack Menace . He's a solid 4/4 and is what makes this build beyond ridiculous. I'm probably going to take the Nylea, God of the Hunt idea from your deck and put it in mine. Thanks!

Imo, Bred for the Hunt is never good, and Bident of Thassa only works in MUD because they have 12 flyers, Thassa, God of the Sea , and Master of Waves so they're pinging for little bits of evasive damage all game. Your deck, on the other hand, looks to beat the opponent down with a couple big hits, so if it's effective for drawing cards, you're probably already winning. If you're looking for a cheaper option than Garruk, Jace, Architect of Thought is good, or perhaps Give / Take . I normally don't like Fathom Mage , but even that is an upgrade over those cards in this deck.

You're probably right, I'll have to actually play this deck out more then just playtests to see how quickly this deck can destroy before having to draw more cards. But for now I'll take out the Bred for the Hunt and probably the Bident of Thassa as well. I might grab Fathom Mage for a little bit more draw opportunity but as I realize I have 5 scry lands I'm usually pretty set on what I'm getting out of my library.

What do you think of Omenspeaker instead of direct card draw?

And secondly, instead of Predator's Rapport what do you think of Cutthroat Maneuver as a quick boost to either offense or defense and lifegain?

From your thread. Boon Satyr

Also, If you want to get interesting, and since you have many creatures a 1x Deadbridge Chant can turn the game around and making you the agressor in any matchup.

I like the idea of Deadbridge Chant especially in the later parts of the game as I'm not drawing a lot of cards so getting extra creatures in the game for free would be great. Thanks for the suggestions!

Maybe some way to manually add counters. It may not be necessary, but cards like Burst of Strength (fun to use with Simic Manipulator or Give / Take (also for card draw), or manipulate counters i.e., Bioshift .

Prime Speaker Zegana is one of the better Simic cards in standard play right now, and plays well with Corpsejack Menace (if he is on the field, Zeg comes in as a 9/9, draw 9 cards, for 6 mana).

Hey thanks for the thoughts- I've considered both and I'll tell you why neither are in this build.

First off Burst of Strength is just momentary- I'd rather use Savage Summoning for the extra counter and I already have Prophet of Kruphix for the untap bit. Though I have put more thought now into using him with Simic Manipulator as you are very right on how that could be devastating!

Secondly, as much as I love Prime Speaker Zegana in most counter builds she does not fit well here. I have had her in this deck, but only momentarily as there was an instance where if I played her she would have drawn me 38 cards and completely decked myself. Else she would be in here for sure, if I do need more card draw though it will be between Give / Take and Fathom Mage

This deck is awesome man, the only thing I would maybe consider is Bow of Nylea just because you don't have that much stuff to deal with flying creatures, and that might help a bit.

Well thank you! I used to have the Bow of Nylea in this deck but it ended up being not as useful for fliers but still great for adding a couple extra counters now and then. I usually just rely on Cloudfin Raptor for fliers and I guess I can side in Putrefy . Also if I was going to deal just 2 damage to them, I could just probably use Simic Manipulator to steal them as well.

most top decks use Underworld Connections for card draw. Otherwise, Read the Bones is your best bet for instant gratification. But if the life penalties would hurt you too much, you could just go straight Divination (sorcery) or Opportunity (instant). If you're looking for creature-based draw, check out Zameck Guildmage .

Prime Speaker Zegana , like any creature, is counterable, but if you were to use a Savage Summoning before casting her, that's an additional card and makes her uncounterable (and maybe that extra card draw offsets the two-for-one used to cast her). In a playtest, I did cast her once as a 107/107, lol. That would even deck out an EDH deck! Fathom Mage is great if she does hit the board and you can protect her, you'll probably get consistent card draw every turn, and Give / Take is totally her best synergy card.

I love Simic Charm , but it doesn't counter spells like Syncopate does. I mostly use the Charm for its Unsummon effect. Having both spells is quite useful, I'd run a couple Syncopate in the sideboard if you find yourself up against control.

Rapid Hybridization is a good source of removal. It's one of the only solutions to dealing with Blood Baron of Vizkopa and all the big creatures out of reach of Abrupt Decay . Hell, I've used it dozens of times on my own creatures (who were about to die) to trigger evolves (especially on F-Mage) on my other guys.

Oh Zameck Guildmage I forgot about him! I'm not exactly looking for card draw but he might just be worth it. Both his abilities play really well into this build especially late game with extra mana and Prophet of Kruphix so I'll consider him. As for removal, I mostly just rely on my creatures doing it the old fashioned way. By being bigger.

Then again, like every deck there are weaknesses to other builds and to ignore those builds is just ridiculous. Thanks for the thoughts, always good to hear another opinion!

Zameck Guildmage is really important if you're going to run punch cards like Crowned Ceratok or Sapphire Drake . If you do find yourself hemorrhaging in games but have lots of draw, make sure you check out Horizon Chimera .

Since you are creature-heavy, and running both Corpsejack Menace and Vorel of the Hull Clade , as well as scavenge options with Dreg Mangler , don't forget about Lotleth Troll . Having extra draw power helps you alot with him too.

T1 Experiment One , T2 Lotleth Troll , T3 Vorel of the Hull Clade gives you a meaty front line to start the game. I've gotten a chance to play that line once before in a previous experimental BUG counters deck.

You can use Battering Krasis in place of Lotleth, for an extra mana, if you like the trample and prefer the Simic side.

Firstly, +1 to this deck - I love Simic and anything with crazy counter combos. Please check out my deck Counter Apocalypse, +1 me and throw me your thoughts!

I find myself compelled to comment here because you're currently in the middle of multiple discussions that I've come and gone through, and thought I'd pass along and possibly save you some playtesting trouble. If you're playing standard, you've probably realized the current meta is super, super fast. This deck does not excel in speed and, as you've already stated before, draw control. If you're subject to tons of aggro, removal or a control deck, you're going to run out of steam if the board is sweeped or your Kalonian Hydra and/or Corpsejack Menace is killed. That being said, Garruk, Caller of Beasts rock, but you've got that under control (I am currently trying to get my hands on 2 of them!). You'll also realize that unfortunately, he doesn't come out as fast as you'd like - so you need more ways to replenish your hand and lemme tell you, the dig 4 option of Read the Bones is far and away your best bet. Way better and deeper into your deck than Divination , faster than Opportunity and won't mill you to death like Prime Speaker Zegana , although I have 1x of her for certain situations where my Kalonian has been blown up and I need card draw with a Corpsejack on the field. Consider at least 2x of Read the Bones , if not 3.

Nextly, I mentioned speed. If you haven't played Rakdos or Selesnya aggro, you're in for a rude surprise without more ramp. I'd personally suggest 4x Elvish Mystic . I tried Gyre Sage in the past, and to my dismay, they were at least 1 turn too slow. Another thing for speed - 2 more Prophet of Kruphix ! You might wonder why you'd want 4 of them but the first one is almost definitely going to get removed, and in your second matchup, they will be waiting for it to come out with a Doom Blade or the like if you caught them with their pants down in the first game. Prophet wins games. Not only because of the obvious but untapping your lands after passing turn allows you to have mana back from removal/bounce. Which brings me to my next point...

If you want to live past turn 4 without a God hand, you need to mainboard removal and only sideboard it out if you know you won't need it. Sometimes you need to slow down your board and blow things up to control the game, even though you're DYING to cast that Kalonian Hydra . I love that you have Putrefy in here but you need either Cyclonic Rift , Abrupt Decay or both as well. I run both - not to mention an overloaded Cyclonic Rift also wins games and devastates Selesnya's board. In the new meta post-Born of the Gods, white weenie will be making a comeback with that Legendary white fucker Brimaz, King of Oreskos that was spoiled yesterday, and token removal stops that pretty effectively. I'd also suggest at least 1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx since half your cards have green mana symbols in them. That combined with Prophet and a hand full of cards = game over for your opponent as your flood the battlefield with more than they can deal with.

Love Predator's Rapport - I will be checking that one out for my Counter Apocalypse. Tons of shock lands + Read the Bones against aggro has you at 10 life by turn 3 against certain deck comps.

So, what do you remove? Experiment One entirely, or at least 2x. I've tried it; too slow to evolve even though you might think that's not the case. Cloudfin Raptor - same thing. Elusive Krasis works better since it's P/T is fantastic for a 3 drop - or on turn 2 with an Elvish Mystic - also unblockable can win games. Dreg Mangler entirely - idea is solid, but you want to have that mana freed up for removal and I'd rather be casting a Kalonian Hydra for 5 mana than using his scavenge. The idea behind this deck is to be drawing 3 cards every game aside from good ramp - Kalonian, Prophet and Corpsejack. Don't muck up your draws with cards that only somewhat support the focus of this deck, which is to put down shit that forces an answer or your opponent literally dies by turn 5-6. I love, love LOVE Vorel of the Hull Clade but if he's out and you're using him to pump up, you've almost certainly already won. He's a "win more" card.

I personally don't play Nylea, God of the Hunt any longer as of last week, but if you don't like my suggestions then she may be worth keeping in. I found that after I shaved down and focused the deck, only Prime Speaker would benefit from trample, as Kalonian already had it and Elusive Krasis is unblockable. Corpsejack doesn't get counters so what else would need trample?

So, that ended up being 3x as long as I expected. I hope some of these are useful and I didn't mean to sound preach-y. I have tried nearly everything you have on your main and sideboard, and are contained in the comments, and my experience has made my version of the deck so much more effective, it's not even funny.

Anyone reading this, please +1 and comment on Counter Apocalypse and good luck!

Regulus1010, I actually read thru your entire post. You have some good points and I agree with most of them.I'm too tired atm (almost bed time) to reiterate on them and don't really need to much.

One thing worth saying though, to Zicca21: If you're looking for removal, Far / Away is probably the best removal going right now in my opinion. Underplayed and underrated, it's an Unsummon and a Devour Flesh (without the lifegain), all rolled into one card. It's a great way to two-for-one them while clearing a path to swing. I've won games by it.

On a side note, might wanna even out your mana pool based on the requirements pie on the right.

So I guess I have some catching up to do, but I love the comments- thanks for taking the time to help another MtG player out!

Regulus1010- wow. Thank you for saying all that, even if accidentally. I've been looking forward to answering you back but I've only had my phone and that's a mess when it comes to long answers.

1. I checked out your deck and it is fantastic! You have less creatures then I do and each of yours has its own very specific role but your B/U/G becomes different then mine. Here's what I saw, you shouldn't put in the Garruk, Caller of Beasts because unlike my deck, his +1 ability won't always give you about 3 creatures as it does in mine- your card draw works better then he does I think. Also, I have Master Biomancer in my deck which when you're talking about evolve being to slow, it often is, but it may be negated in my deck when an Experiment One can come into the game with the 2 (or sometimes 4 or more) counters it needs to be able to regenerate and start being a real threat in the game. So both of my 1-drops will stay in the game making it so much harder to choose Elvish Mystic . Though I might drop them both down to 3... Dreg Mangler isn't fantastic when he comes in by himself, he isn't bad either, but when he comes in after a Master Biomancer is on the battlefield as a 5/5 with haste for 3 cmc I rate that as good- also I wouldn't just scavenge him instead of playing a Kalonian Hydra but I might the turn after for an extra 3 (then 6 or 12) counters on that same hydra.

2. I did have a "1" right...? When it comes to removal it get's tough. I love Abrupt Decay but only own 1. Cyclonic Rift is nuts, but I have zero of those. Maybe I'll mainboard Putrefy , maybe I'll try Mutant's Prey , or maybe I'll try both! Mutant's Prey can take out the ever-feared Blood Baron of Vizkopa . When it comes to token destruction, at least the pesky 1/1 soldiers- Golgari Charm takes pretty good care of them. But lots are more troublesome. We'll see.

3. Your deck is great, and in all honestly, if this deck can't handle itself in tough situations (a lot that you pointed out) I'll be rearranging my deck to look more like yours and apologizing for being stubborn with my super-duper-all-the-counters deck.

4. I may still have to find a way to get my ramp faster and to get some more cards, "... but it is not this day" -Aragorn, King of Gondor.

To: thewyzman- Far / Away might also be in this deck if I need more of dat removal. And I'll work on that pie!

To: TalladegaMagicMan- I love you! That is all.

Ha! love your comments, Zicca21. Firstly, It's nice to see someone else respond in detail as well, and don't apologize for having some original ideas that you want to make work! I'm a huge lover of MTG now that I've gotten back into it again after so many years (stopped playing around 1997-98), and I LOVE counter decks like this because it really gets the brain working. Anyway, I think you do have some points, there. You're right in that I don't have Garruk, Caller of Beasts but it's mostly because I haven't been able to snag any yet! I've been dying to put him in because there are times when I just effing need some creatures to replace what I just had Doom Blade -ed, and I fall short. I originally tried this deck with more creatures and may put more back in, but kept getting out-aggro'd by faster decks. It's really disappointing, honestly, because I love cards like Master Biomancer and Experiment One , not to mention Vorel of the Hull Clade who works for you better than he does me), and was honestly pissed when I found so many other Simic cards falling flat on me. I wanted to use Plasm Capture and Mystic Genesis , dammit!

I like your approach with Master Biomancer helping out some of your smaller creatures, but I worry that not drawing him at the appropriate time, or having him nuked might hurt your board development at key times. If your opponent is astute, he'll learn that neutralizing Corpsejack Menace and Master Biomancer early on will stall you out noticeably. Still, I may have underestimated synergy with Experiment One and Cloudfin Raptor because they are cheap cards that because of MBiomancer aren't dead draws late game, but I might suggest a -1 to Master Biomancer even so. I would strongly, strongly recommend at least giving Elusive Krasis 2x of in your deck on at least a trial basis - his strong body on turn 2 or 3 and +1/+1 counter development while remaining unblockable has won me games.

Also, if your wallet can support it, max out your Kalonian Hydra count - he's the real out-of-con-fucking-trol rockstar of this deck and with other cards to compliment him, can win the game for you the turn after he comes out in many situations.

I am still feeling as if Lotleth Troll is a solid idea for you here to replace Dreg Mangler , and the more I think of it, I might be including him in my deck for the following reason: not only is he a cheaper CMC, there are times when the board isn't ideal for what you'd be looking for post-turn 5 or so, and drawing and top-decking/drawing Cloudfin Raptor , Sylvan Caryatid or Experiment One just sucks (and especially me with extra Elvish Mystic I really don't need on turn 8). Imagine Garruk-ing 3 of any of those when you need that last push and don't want summoning sickness, but instead of casting them, you drop 3 of them onto Mr. Lotleth Troll who has trample, possibly doubling or even quadrupling the counters added because of a Corpsejack Menace or 2 and you swing over your opponent for the win...and even if you don't, he regenerates for a single black. Just a suggestion but I'm liking it the more I think about it.

I would still mainboard your single Abrupt Decay because it's that good in standard right now. Putrefy is a better choice than Mutant's Prey because it doesn't cause your own creatures to take damage plus it can destroy artifacts. As far as sideboard, +1-2 Pithing Needle is a must, as control decks use Jace and MF'ing Elspeth and hurt. A lot. Also, I sideboard Fade into Antiquity because it can exile Gods, which there will be many more of in 2 weeks with Born of the Gods. Golgari Charm is a great choice; dump Simic Manipulator because he's too slow and ineffective against too many matchups.

Please +1 my deck if you like it :) Thanks again! ( Counter Apocalypse )