what about Renegrade Krasis?

I did originally have Renegade Krasis in there but I was finding that getting them to evolve after other creatures already had evolved/entered the battlefield with +1/+1 counters on them wasn't happening as frequently as I originally thought it would. With the meta being so fast, it wasn't making sense to, at the very minimum, waiting to have Renegade Krasis evolving and dropping counters on other creatures until turn 4-5. Too much cost, planning and waiting for not enough benefit.

Good suggestion though - it was among my first ideas!

Well I had a huge comment typed out and I hit the wrong button. I built a super evolving deck similar to this. Still analyzing your deck, but the math on the Kalonian Hydra + Corpsejack Menace and Vorel of the Hull Clade seemed off.

Abbreviate them as K, C, and V, respectively. Play K, comes in with 4 counters. V doubles. Enters as 8/8. V tap for 8 counters, double from C, add 16 counters. 24/24. End turn.

Next turn: V tap for 24 counters, double from C, add 48 counters. 72/72.

Attack: K doubles for 72 counters, double from C, add 144 counters. 216/216 attacking with trample.

64/64 is still pretty much game over, except for extreme circumstances, but a 216/216 is almost unstoppable in any standard match if they didn't already remove it. Not to mention it will double all counters on everything else.

Last thought: Bioshift is an insane trick in many many plays in simic counter decks. For example, they watch you pump the Kalonian, panic, Doom Blade it just before they die. You then Bioshift all the counters over to say...ANYTHING ELSE. And they still die. Put it on Master Biomancer and repeat the cycle if they bounce the Kalonian. So much synergy and insane plays with Bioshift.

Zarlisk, you're right, I did the math wrong. I realized it a bit ago but obviously forgot to change it up back on my deck description - thanks for catching that!

Bioshift was also a card in my original iteration of this deck and as much as I love the idea, I feel that everything else that I have still in the deck is essential and I'm STILL over by 7 cards. Love to hear your feedback on how to cut it down - I'm wondering if the Bow of Nylea and 2x Voyaging Satyr are necessary, which would cut down 4 cards plus the applicable land removal, getting it much closer to 60.

Thoughts?

Running the Prophet of Kruphix 's, I don't think the Voyaging Satyr s are helping all that much. Bow of Nylea doesn't seem to really fit. I would agree with cutting those down and playtesting it. I feel that you could probably just move the Abrupt Decay to your sideboard and you would still have enough removal. That puts you at 61, then maybe just cut to 23 lands and you are clear!

That's a fair point about Prophet of Kruphix , although I get a tad concerned with the 5 CMC and running 3 (rather than 2, which I'm struggling with because I don't want too many as a dead draw late game, but want to draw it every time). The Voyaging Satyr are there obviously for ramp early game, but also to create ridiculous amounts of mana with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx , although by the point in the game where that's really coming into play, you could argue the game is already basically over in your favor. I've just rub into a free situations that even with 4x Sylvan Caryatid and 2x Gyre Sage , I've still managed to get mana screwed.

Bow of Nylea was supposed to be utility, as I have no flying defense or life gain, and the extra counters don't hurt as a mana dump either. I'm still on the fence about Abrupt Decay but I might try that.

Thanks!

i like it check out my Simic Deck, i have been thinking of splashing black into it few pointers would be appreciated.

pretty good deck i would add in more Abrupt Decay (+1 from me)

btw check out my deck MUST SEE THIS DECK!(3x first place @ FNM+Gameday)

I have a question about this example of using Bioshift , when you move the counters do you also double them assuming you have Corpsejack Menace in play for the new creature getting them put on?

@ EddCrawley, in your example, yes, Bioshift doubles the counters. The exact text on Corpsejack Menace states "if one or more +1/+1 counters are placed on a creature...". Bioshift is moving them and placing them on another creature, so the doubling effect from CJM would occur.

I've recently built something similar and I love the concept!

However be careful with Prime Speaker Zegana ; by the time you're casting her you will hopefully have a 64/64 hydra out, so she will mill you to death. Hunter's Insight can work sooner and with enormous trampling hydras should give you the early draw you want without emptying your deck entirely. Also if you're after some big draw, you could throw in some scavengers so when you have to discard you can throw them in the graveyard and drag them back next turn.

On ramp and card count, by not having a one mana cost dork (eg Elvish Mystic ) you deny yourself the chance of a turn 3 hydra. I dropped Gyre Sage in my deck for this reason; she's great late game if you've got creatures with X in their mana cost, but I wanted to speed the deck up and she takes at least a turn to be any use. Thus my suggestion for slimming down would be to drop the Vastwoods and swap the Sages for Elvish Mystic s.

Hope this provides some food for thought :)

@ 2npii, thanks for your comment! (remember to +1 me if you like it!).

I've given a lot of thought to all of the points you've made, as they've been concerns I've been considering for some time. Firstly, as far as Prime Speaker Zegana , you're absolutely right - casting her at the wrong time is an autoloss. You're also right in that she's basically a draw mechanic with a body in this deck. I have her in there for when the deck starts stalling out and I've been subject to a lot of removal, and need to draw some cards to keep myself rolling at the same time as putting out some offense (assuming I don't have more than one Corpsejack Menace out or a well-developed Kalonian Hydra ). I may have to reduce her down to 1 or 0 in the deck if she doesn't make sense. I still need to do some more playtesting. Hunter's Insight isn't standard legal, and the scavenging idea is great except that I need everything I have in there already and I'm already over 60 cards :/

I think your better point here is that Gyre Sage definitely does put me at a disadvantage by turn 3, although I struggle with the fact the Corpsejack Menace makes them beast mode for mana the second that he comes into play, especially if you have out 2 Sages. So it's a choice between early game/mid game. With the current meta, you're probably right about me taking them out. I get too attached to cards!

i find it pretty funny that our decks are so similar.. after skimming the new cards for a while this is the strategy i decided to focus on and ive gained some helpful cards by looking at other players decks online i think i could learn from yours a bit aswell however i must sleep for now.G.M.Overrun

Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver makes no sense in this deck. How does this add to a counter-style deck?

i vote take out the Vorel of the Hull Clade ...add Dying Wish or Devour Flesh .. the chance of regaining a little life in a deck that has a high possibility of doing 10 damage to itself before the end seems worth while.

@astroknotts - I've been thinking of removing him for some time now. He's one of those cards that you're loathe to part with because he really seems like he'd fit so well but in reality, is more often than not a "win more" card. A 72/72 Kalonian Hydra sounds awesome and all, but it's not as if the 36/36 won't almost always kill your opponent. I think both of your suggestions are good ones and I'd honestly prefer Dying Wish , but I'd be worried that I wouldn't always be able to get it out when I need it (not to mention that Devour Flesh doubles as, removal) since it's not being cast at instant speed. I'll really have to think about this.

Come to think of it, Devour Flesh would work if someone was blowing up Elusive Krasis for 4+ life as well...

Give / Take would be good in this deck with the mana your producing you can definitely use it, and even remove those counters for more draw! Forced Adaptation is always good too a bit slow but does it's job at giving counters.

@ xKrenko, I had previously used Give / Take but it just wasn't doing what I needed it to primarily do, which is draw cards after dealing with some removal. The counters it provides are a bonus, honestly, and aren't going to win me the game. I know it SOUNDS like they might, but I've playtested this extensively and the card is just too slow - if I'm going to be casting both sides of that card with 6 mana and not casting something else to gain better board presence, I'm either definitely already winning or losing. I put in Read the Bones instead because it digs harder for less and doesn't require a creature having counters already to do so.

Oh, and Forced Adaptation just doesn't work at all in this deck. It's way too slow even for 1 CMC. It was something I considered when I built the first iteration of this deck a few months back when I concentrated more on the Evolve mechanic, but it wasn't working. Thanks for the input, though!

was just thinking... Scavenging Ooze would be a great sideboard against a graveyard deck. idk if anyone plays those but Ive been considering building one lol.

I see your point, well the only other card I can suggest is Far / Away over Devour Flesh , return a creature card essentially a minor threat, for your opponent may sac a more potential threat. For it's cost it's far better than Devour Flesh and you won't have to worry if your opponent sacs for some heavy life gain or just a minor threat.

@ astroknotts, Scavenging Ooze is a great card and I had originally considered it but honestly, no one plays graveyard decks around me that I've seen. But, just for the lifegain, I was considering it although I was having problems figuring where it fits into my mana curve. T1 and T2 are (hopefully) ramp unless I need to drop an Elusive Krasis on 2, then either a Corpsejack Menace or Kalonian Hydra on T3. I was thinking about what I could take out for him to test him out because he could possibly be something that comes out later in the game after I've gotten wiped out/been subject to removal in order to recover, but then I saw that they're going for $6-7/each and I don't think I want to spend that to playtest a card I'm not sure I have room for. I could possibly get rid of that 2x Devour Flesh slot we've been talking about. Would love to give it a try, though.

@ xKrenko, I really, really like that suggestion and I'm kind of shocked I hadn't considered that card. Although to be fair, I didn't ravenously scour the Gatherer for cards of those matching colors when I decided to splash in black a little bit ago. I would still like to keep in at least 2x Cyclonic Rift but maybe just sideboard them? They're brutally effective against token decks with overload, but then again the "Far" part of Far / Away does it to a single target and if I want to pay 5 (goddamn I wish it were 4 CMC instead), I can remove 2 creatures off the board for 5, and one of them permanently whereas Cyclonic Rift costs 7 in order to hit more than 1 creature. Damn, this is a lot of food for thought.

Oh, and as far as Devour Flesh was concerned, astroknotts suggested that for lifegain on my own creatures as a source of lifegain. "Oh, smashing my Kalonian Hydra ? Ok, I'll cast Devour Flesh on myself and sacrifice him to gain the 4/8/x life instead and your spell fizzles." Lolz had by all. Except my opponent. My only thought about that is you're usually tapping out to cast Kalonian which leaves no mana if your opponent removes him right away. The other option is to, what, play slower so you have the extra mana when you do cast him? Waiting until you have 7 mana to cast your heavy hitter is really risky. Now I'm just rambling. Thoughts?