*** Nightmare Shepherd

Beseech the Queen , Diabolic Intent , Grim Tutor , and Cruel Tutor can all get you that sweet, sweet Memory Jar . Junk Diver can function as a second myr retriver, too (but it FLIES).

Omniscience_is_life

Diabolic Intent was incorrectly labeled but is absolutely in the deck. Im a fan of all the other tutors you've mentioned, Grim Tutor originally was in the deck and but can't seem to find a space for it currently. the other tutors are however to constrained in their limitations. Generally speaking instant gratification is what i look for in tutors.

Junk Diver is something I actually overlooked, thank you for the suggestion as well as the fact that it can go infinite potentially I believe with Scrap Trawler and Myr Retriever

thank you again for the suggestions, that being said what are the potential cuts for both Junk Diver and Grim Tutor? Considering that Scrap Trawler is a much better recursion piece in the deck over Trading Post despite trawlers limitation, that is potentially overcome by the replacing T.Post with Junk Diver. Thoughts?

MLS91

Beacon of Unrest works as decent, reuseable utility

Add fetches for crucible of worlds and rings

Why not add a Sensei's Divining Top , since you already have ring + basalt, it will let you draw your entire deck. It's also good on it's own, moreover, its better with fetches

Thespian's Stage > Cabal stronghold - You don't run enough basics, nor is stronghold easy to activate. Copying coffers or an opposing utility land such as cradle, field of the dead or your own deserted temple. The utility shouldn't be overlooked

Since you're playing deathcloud, you should consider Infernal Darkness and/or Contamination - Bitterblossom/trading post + Contamination = Fun. Infernal darkness, like contamination, is counter bait and at the very least stalls you a turn or 2. Do not that contamination shuts off coffers (as well as opposing cradles, etc...) while infernal darkness does not

Imp's Mischief - Protect your commander by redirecting targeted removal as well as targeted draw, targeted extra turns, etc...

Liliana's Triumph > IMO Go for the throat - Hits multiple opponents with a sacrifice clause and you also have 2 liliana's!

Another idea can be adding Necropotence to help break parity. A sadistic idea, would be adding Possessed Portal . Do note it says each end step, combined with necro, you will win if they have no answers and cannot kill you

Diabolic Revelation - Highly underrated. X=7 is ok. X=8 is good. X=9+ is great. Given you have all this ramp through artifacts and coffers, this should not be overlooked

Potential Cuts - Unearth, Dreamstone and Sheoldred, the former doesnt seem impactful enough while the latter 2 are too costly for what it does

Do you have enough artifacts for Metalworker? What is the point of vault of whispers?

Omniscience_is_life, Profet93

- Trading Post for + Junk Diver

Why: Scrap Trawler loop enabled with Myr Retriever and Junk Diver , also lowers curve overall and better overall synergy, potential win with Zulaport Cutthroat or Syr Konrad, the Grim , good looks Omniscience_is_life

- Go for the Throat for + Liliana's Triumph

Why: Profet93 you are correct, much better value

- Cabal Stronghold for + Vesuva

Why: Thespian's Stage would end up tapped at the cost of 2mana compared to Vesuva just coming in tapped for the same ability. Minuscule advantage but it's there

- Swamp for + Prismatic Vista

Why: you right Profet93

- Mind Slash for + Imp's Mischief

Why: mindslash isn't as efficient as id like to think it is, puts opponents creatures back in their graveyard (theoretically) and that works against Living Death

- Hedron Archive for + Sensei's Divining Top

Why: Profet93, you clearly point out the why, there is no contention with your logic and rational

- Dreamstone Hedron for + Lotus Petal

Why: Cuts curve, synergy with the trawler line, can easily produce more mana then any other rock in the deck. (potentially infinite???)

Profet93 Metalworker is just a really good way to ramp, acts as a rock for explosiveness. there are 21 total artifacts in the deck, so just above 20% of the deck feeds him, which is also why I included Vault of Whispers unless you think Darksteel Citadel would serve better in this slot

Regarding swapping vesuva instead of thespian's stage, I like stage because it can copy anything anytime. I value the flexibility of it more than the mana it costs to activate. But thats personal preference.

Regarding Dreamstone for Lotus petal, I've never liked petal personally. One and done mana rocks are best used in cEDH decks or decks that can abuse card draw to make up for the disadvantage. I like Bubbling Muck , although it is symmetrical especially with urborg. Again, personal preference. Lastly, another option in this slot is Jet Medallion

Blast Zone - Deal with artifacts and enchantments

Syphon Mind - Draw 3, each opponent discards 1, you get their stuff. All for 4 mana, the value!

Budget per card? As I know chains would fit nicely with anvil and yawgmoth's will is just value.

Profet93

I get the flexibility you're talking about in terms of Thespian's Stage in comparison. However ill keep that in mind when i comes to play testing when i get the ability to in the future.

Lotus Petal can be chained infinitely with the scrap trawler line thus another back up of infinite mana for Tergrid's Lantern . I don't like Bubbling Muck because of its symmetry as you've also noticed but did proxy in (until i can get my hands on one) the Jet Medallion

I like the idea of Blast Zone but can't justify the loss ill take as well since it effects the board

Syphon Mind was cut earlier because instead of a use once sorcery regardless of the "value" it accrues, Grim Haruspex is both more explosive in draw power and more easily recurable within the confines of both mono black, and the deck itself.

to note a conversation with some fellows from my play group however there will be a couple adjustments incoming and as follows,

-1 Liliana's Triumph for +1 Grasp of Darkness

-1To be determined... for +1 Toxic Deluge

the reasoning being, in an attempt to understand or prepare for the hypothetical weakness of the deck (aggro/token strategies) i've determined that adding some spot removal (lack of opponent having a choice) to accompany the sacrificial removal spells (opponent has the choice) as well as an additional boardwipe in case of "oh shit" moments that being said there is also the possibility that Grasp of Darkness may eventually be replaced by Executioner's Capsule due to it being both an artifact and recurable.

What are your thoughts?

MLS91

1. I'm a bit slow....can you break down each step of how you get infinite mana with lotus petal?
2. The idea of blast zone is A) Politics B) Strengthen your weakness C) You wont use it if it hurts you more than your opponent. I think its worth a test run, but I understand where you're coming from. I prefer asmetry benefiting us mostly
3. TBD Slot for cut should be unearth, or enlighten me what your thought process is with it.
4. Tragic Slip > grasp of darkness IMO. I dont like the capsule limitation nor the -4 only for grasp. Morbird is cheaper and almost always guaranteed to be -13.
5. While not entirely a serious suggestion, Massacre Wurm wrecks token decks, amoung other mini boardwipes that can be included should you wish

If you want to be a fucking meme, Kaervek, the Spiteful shuts most tokens down entirely. They barely even hit the board

More cuts/updates through discussion for more experienced players in this playstyle

• Plague Reaver + Noxious Gearhulk

why: Gearhulk is spot removal, a big recurable body, interacts with half the deck through trawler and gains life, Reaver costs cards and isn't a guarantee

- Jet Medallion + Soul-Guide Lantern

why: The deck is fairly low to the ground as is, most spells are double costed secondly does nothing for the cost of the artifacts in he deck which are at this point in the build the backbone as such due to minimal value was cut for graveyard control, I choose the lantern over Tormod's Crypt for several reasons, those being; (1) the foil art is gorgeous, (2) hits all opponents yards at once, (3) exiles something on ETB and draws a card

- Grim Haruspex + Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools

why: This one was really hard, and is still really hard for me to justify. what i like about Szat is that it better synergies with Skullclamp , gives me fodder for Grave Pact , Ashnod's Altar , and Phyrexian Altar . Szat in an ideal situation allows me to draw up to 4 cards with clamp at no loss to a board state compared to Haruspex which is more defensive in terms of boards wipes spot removal etc. I still feel that Tevesh offers more to the deck however thus the decision

- Mire in Misery + Toxic Deluge

Why: the "oh shit" factor

Profet93

in order of your thoughts/questions:

1. Lotus Petal

utilizing the Scrap Trawler loop i.e. Junk Diver + Myr Retriever and a sac outlet, you sacrifice the petal, it hits the yard, sacrifice either Myr Retriever or Junk Diver , Scrap Trawler ability on the stack target the Petal resolve the retriever ability targeting whatever . Then you play the petal, sac the petal, sac the Junk Diver / Myr Retriever , with the abilities on the stack target petal with the trawler ability and then myr/diver with the common ability shared between them(i.e. diver can target retriever/retriever can target diver). You will achieve infinite colored mana in this manner

1. We seem to share a philosophy in deck building, good to make common and relatable grounds with you. I respect you assessment and will keep an open mind to it, ill make sure to keep in touch about when i finally have the freedom to play.

2. What is it you're specifically referencing? I like Unearth because it hits all key creatures in the deck for one mana and unlike reanimate doesn't cost me life to do so.

3. where as i would agree with you in every case but this, i find that this correction will be made if or when i find that i can reliably trigger morbid consistently because yes, -13/-13 is great for 1cmc, however if I cannot trigger morbid it's 1cmc for -1/-1 where as i'd rather pay 2cmc for -4/-4. that being said I otherwise agree with you that Tragic Slip is a better option over Grasp of Darkness but until I can games in ill stick with the limit. (the sweet spot most people don't realize of most creatures is in fact 4)

4. Massacre Wurm is a love of mine however Noxious Gearhulk currently holds this slot. We could surely discuss the swap between the two, however Gearhulk has more direct synergy with the build. Both accomplish something similar and different at the same time

MLS91

1. Thats a pretty cool comb, thank you for taking the time to explain it to me.
2. Unearth - It hits a lot of creatures but I've personally never liked it nor found it impactful enough. In mono black, the color where you can recur easily from the graveyard, Necromancy is much more impactful. Being able to get any creature, instant speed, disrupt GY shenanigans by allowing you to target opponents creatures as well (which people might resort to after destroying their board and discarding their hand), I would much rather pay the extra 2 mana for that additional flexibility. Personal choice though, as maintaining a low curve is definitely crucial in builds such as this
3. Idk about your playgroup, but in EDH, things usually die quite frequently. Moreover, with your sac outlets and being in mono black, it shouldn't seem to hard to reliably trigger. I think its worth playtesting, but I definitely see how having something uncertain is not in your best interests. I am usually a very conservative player, I just find the positives to far outweigh the negatives in this case.
4. Massacre Wurm/Noxious Gearhulk - It wasn't an entirely serious suggestion. That being said, I wasn't advocating to remove gearhulk for it. Gearhulk is definitely better for this deck IMO, and you're right, they do different things. I was thinking of maybe (only if token decks are your achilles heel) Eradicator Valkyrie or Sheoldred being cut for it. Reason being, sheoldred is expensive for what it does, even if it does follow along your lines of play. Although, I'm sure you're never hardcasting it. Eradictor is cool, lifelink helps offset the hate you will receive, flying helps push damage and the ability is relevant if you ever use it often enough given the cost associated with it. To me, it's a balance between adding cards that fuel your gameplan and silver bullet against decks that you have trouble with. For example, in my mono black deck, I sacrifice tempo and speed for late game control. People who play against it know that since I destroy the board quite often, the only real way to interact is through blue, so I added in cavern, boseju (land slots are easier to justify) as well as the silver bullet Thought Distortion which has won me many games against my weakness, blue, as well at other powerful decks that are usually non-creature based such as my own (I know, a mono black deck with almost no creatures, I try to be different)
5. Since you aren't afraid of wiping the board given you added toxic deluge, have you considered adding redundancy to that in the form of Dead of Winter + Snow swamps? Or is the limitation of snow-swamps a turn off to that idea?

Profet93

1. Absolutely my dude, I love the sharing of ideals and interactions within the game itself and have greatly appreciate the discussion between us in terms of the assessment of the deck and card choices.

2. I don't currently have access to Necromancy either in my collection or from my LGS(support the LGS's!!!!!), and when it comes to the time's we're in I can't justify the expenditure of a card unless it's in front of me (we loss a lot of money over opportunity cost and "convince" of online stores). That being said, I will absolutely cut unearth for Necro, i've had that same thought of interaction brother.

3. I cannot contest the point that you bring to the forefront, however because I don't have anyone at the moment to play with ill stick to grasp, however I will swap them when I can get games in im sure, so in other words Grasp is just a place holder for Slip

4. Man, after the inclusion of necromancy takes place I can see this being done, I have a hard time with Sheoldred in thought because of how it lines up in the deck, but again I can not contest your rational, this we'll file as to be determined. Thought Distortion is such a cool card and i'm diffidently struggling with because i'm actually leaning towards the mindset that blue/azorious control will be more of a struggle for me to play against then aggro strategies (reason being after further thought decks of this manner are generally permanent saturated thus only feeding Tergrid more in my favor then not)

5. Im trying to be proactive about an assessment of my meta, this is a MASSIVE assumption to what my meta MAY be. Because of the popularity of snow lands at this current moment i feel that a lot of other decks/stategies are going to plan for snow lands in some manner so id rather stick to basic basics, however, the day i can find an Extraplanar Lens ill be all over it.

oooop Profet93, what do you think of this assessment of metas i've noticed?

So i'm currently running Twilight Shepherd as a way to get through mirror matches and a defensive measure against other Tergrid decks at a table as well as the added sacrificial value ( Skullclamp looking at you) and the ability to exile my opponents creatures. However with the new knowledge of rulings on how Tergrid and Shepherd interact with one anothers triggers(ill link you the ruling discussion i posted about at the bottom), do you think it would be more adventitious for me to run Homeward Path as a defensive measure as well as the fact that i could then also "reuse" ETB's of my opponents creatures through sacrificial means i.e. Grave Pact effects, less assuming of people being able to "SEE" that interaction as well as the fact that I could then more agreeably and readily add that sexy Massacre Wurm to the deck list

havnt heard from you in awhile Omniscience_is_life, what are your thought as well?

Rulling/Interaction Discussion:

https://tappedout.net/mtg-questions/nightmare-shepherd-vs-tergrid-god-of-fright/#c3705973

Update: Loops/Combo's/Utility/Interactions

- Sword of Feast and Famine + Expedition Map

Why: Sword is good AF don't get wrong, but the ability to get the lands you need/ want out weights to me the benefits of sword

- Zulaport Cutthroat + Disciple of the Vault

Why: Disciple sees the whole board, and combos with the lotus petal infinite line within the deck itself

- Twilight Shepherd + Massacre Wurm

Why: Homeward Path will be replacing what functionally im using Shepherd for(defense against other Tergrid decks), secondly Massacre Wurm applies more pressure, is great against token strategies, and has a pressure cooker kind of weight to it in the deck which helps with killing opponents

- Bojuka Bog + Homeward Path

Why: Defense against other Tergrid Decks, as well as Soul-Guide Lantern does this job better

*** Twilight Shepherd was actually meant to be typed as Nightmare Shepherd

All I'll say is Grasp of Darkness is a pretty useless card. Feed the Swarm is much better.

MLS91

1. Are you unsure of your meta because you haven't played in person due to COVID? It's hard to comment until I get further information of atleast what your meta used to comprise of as a base.
2. Extraplanar Lens - Truth be told, I've never liked it. It's too, all in. If it works, you (and possibly opponents) get advantage. At worst, you are down 2 for 1. But if you like risk, then by all means.
3. Snow/Dead of Winter - Opponents running snow has nothing to do with dead of winter, it's only a recommendation should you be looking for another cheap board wipe. Although since you can't control it's value as easily as Toxic Deluge, I can understand your reluctance of including it

Let me review the rest of what you said when I come back later tonight. I also agree with the above user's comment regarding feed the swarm. Ensuring destruction with flexibility of enchantment removal (think leyline, RIP, etc...)

Profet93

1. Yes, I've played maybe 4 games of EDH since the beginning of covid, my playgroup consisted of a stax player(he mainly played Golos and Zur), a combo player, a casually competitive player and myself whom I would consider also a casually competitive player (insight to best describe myself is that I enjoy playing Land Destruction and aggro style builds, physical damage in games is highly underrated and misunderstood at my local LGS and I use that to my advantage, I came into magic when i first started playing into a heavy control environment and just don't really "understand"/like the archetype)

2. Im not really about it either, i've included a single snow covered swamp for synergy with Field of the Dead

3. I don't plan on running snow lands as such will likely not run Dead of Winter

4. I ended up cutting Grasp of Darkness for Tragic Slip , i'm in the same spirit likely to cut Dismember for Feed the Swarm I hadn't thought about the likely hood of coming across Leyline of the Void or even Rest in Peace

MLS91

1. Got you, if thats the case you should definitely prioritize instant speed interaction if the trade off isn't too bad.
2. (Also #3) I think you should run half of each, half snow, half non, that way you have the best chance of field of dead. But if you prefer not to, or $/availability is an issue, I understand your decision.
3. Your meta will adjust, as soon as I cast Lethal Vapors + a mind control effect, the entire table lost it when I made one opponent skip his next 1 million turns! :P
4. Thank you for sharing the ruling. Regarding Homeward path vs Nightmare, I like nightmare a lot more. I like the fact that its a creature and I feel it puts in more work. Truth be told, I think you should cut vault of whispers for homeward path. You mentioned the fact that its an artifact for metalworker, but artifacts are so fragile in EDH, it's just not worth it for metalworker alone. Having homeward path, especially now that you added expedition map would fit better IMO. Although I see you already cut bog for it, which is better. I guess I just don't like vault, having more types makes it more susceptible to removal. War Room is a maybe as card draw can't hurt.
5. I agree with pretty much all of your swaps, your note on disciple is spot on! Very good inclusion!

Profet93

1. I don't understand? please fill me in on how this works?

2. Homeward Path vs. Nightmare Shepherd - i know exactly what your talking about, it does because the interaction with Skullclamp , i'm more understanding and valuing the slot at what it is im trying to accomplish. In my mind Nightmare Shepherd is a symmetrical effect, where as Homeward Path makes the possibility of an asymmetrical effect.

3. I'm actually thinking of cutting To the Slaughter for Feed the Swarm i'd rather have the choice and the answer rather then present my opponent with a choice, secondly Slaughter has a restriction. this way I can keep Dismember or replace Dismember with Executioner's Capsule

Omniscience_is_life

Looking back at your suggestion of Kaervek, the Spiteful here is why it didn't make the cut. put simply it turns of Skullclamp and effects the board compared to Massacre Wurm which eats peoples life totals and has no effect on my own board. Great thought though, ill keep him in mind for decks in the future

May I recommend Marionette Master , I ran it in a janky Mishra, Artificer Prodigy deck and it was a house

A_box_of_waffles

Disciple of the Vault does a better job, on both curve, recursion, not to mention Marionette Master only sees your own side of the board.

Disciple of the Vault sees all artifacts, your's and your opponents. Biggest one that comes to mind being treasure tokens

if I were to include Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker somewhere in the deck(cut Sheoldred, the Whispering One but feels bad) I would then cut Syr Konrad, the Grim for Marionette Master

MLS91

What does your name mean btw?

1. This point addresses your meta with regards to card choice, specifically, prioritizing instant sped interaction can be very beneficial given the nature of the combo decks you mentioned.
2. I liked the shepherd, it seemed cool, but truth be told, you know your deck best. Especially with so many changes within a short time. Once you get a chance to play the deck, you can understand what works best and doesn't. Seeing Massacre Wurm in here makes me giggle with glee, makes me want you to record their tears so I can enjoy it as well! :D
3. I agree with swapping To the Slaughter for Feed the Swarm. I think keeping dismember, a card which only has a 1 mana requirement and at instant speed is better than a capsule that broadcasts your play a mile away and limited in targets (granted, dismember is limited to toughness, but I digress). I'm a psych major, so I use information, bait and misconceptions to my advantage in game. It's gotten to the point where I can predict my opponent's tutor choices/hand based on their actions if I play with that person and deck long enough, despite my mental/physical limitations. I think it should not be overlooked, and as such, keep dismember.
4. How badly does this deck need colored mana? I was thinking of Mind Stone > Arcane Signet. Mindstone can also be used with rings and has synergy with Scrap Trawler. Speaking of rings, how would memory jar + rings work together? They just discard a bunch of cards in the end?

Profet93

My name on here is just my initials and birth year, I have another account here on tapped out I lost both the email and password to due to the sands of time, but im sure you can still find the account here: Oltos01

1. understood, i was more referencing your reference to the Lethal Vapors i think our bullets points when numbered get moved after previewing the comment

2. Honestly, i also liked Nightmare Shepherd a lot to. I would still consider running him, but the rulings are to a deterrent to me where as with Homeward Path I just straight get my stuff back, not to mention given people their creatures back then casting a Living Death ...idk sounds pretty brutal to me

3. Speaking of this, dismember will be staying slaughter will be leaving. On a side note I picked up a Volrath's Stronghold from my LGS today (thank goodness for wishlist notifications) as well as a copy Vesuva and Jeweled Lotus . Super excited about these pick ups considering proxying the lotus into this deck, can't quite decide.

4. I don't quite know yet, but your suggestion is hilarious as I had cut Mind Stone from the deck earlier in our discussions for the Arcane Signet . about your question, I would assume that everyone exiles their original hand and ends up with no hand? Another ruling question to pose