Okay, all the previous comments made me think about the mana use and I realized that because of Oona's Gatewarden , it would be more beneficial to have black X mana wincons instead of red.. Now you can use all the X cards with both Axebane Guardian and Bloom Tender .
September 14, 2014 3:58 a.m.
nutellaisgreaterthanlife says... #3
I have something similar Defenders: The way life should be
Try Banefire , and I have found that playing Phenax, God of Deception can be really good. Also, Colossus of Akros is a cheap card, but with the amount of mana you have he becomes a 20/20 indestructible trample pretty quickly
September 14, 2014 8:17 p.m.
Tingettley says... #4
Instead of your Hydras, get an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn . It will give you the extra turn to power out your trample effect. On that note, since you will have infinite mana anyway, get a Kessig Wolf Run . You also need some form of good draw/fetch besides 4 Transmute and a Creature Fetch. I would lose the black X spells, and still go with the Banefire like nutellaisgreaterthanlife said. It is uncounterable and can not be prevented. I would also run Pact of Negation as the mana will be nothing to cast the following turn, IF there is a following turn. Another thing you can try is Grapeshot + Whispers of the Muse /Empty the Warrens . With the Emrakul cast after an EtW, its game anyway. The WotM gives you another version of infinite card draw, that can be countered yes, but it can't be Pithing Needle /Phyrexian Revoker ed.
Something else to consider is some form of actual ramp/delay. Having Remand or Delay for turn 2 can be the difference between winning and losing a game. Then there is also Explore or Summer Bloom for ramp. Lastly another possible 1 of as a win combo in the deck is a Lightning Storm . With infinite draw, you can pitch all of the lands you would draw to it to buff it, and it gets around Spellskite (Which you may want to consider as something of a protectant for your guys)
So thats my ideas for the deck. Hope it helps!
September 14, 2014 9:06 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #5
Tingettley he is taking a budget approach so Emakrul, Spellskite etc. likely out of his price range. With that said you pretty much nailed The Source Wall's approach. Kessig makes every non-defender a potential Banefire
September 14, 2014 9:46 p.m.
nutellaisgreaterthanlife, I actually did have 3x Banefire in this deck before but I decided that it would suite better to have just black (or green/blue) X mana because now both Axebane Guardian and Bloom Tender can use them. Though, the fact that it can't be countered is good so I might add it back. I personally don't see the reasoining in Colossus of Akros . Only good thing about it is the fact it has indestructible. Defender ability is no good because when you have mana to cast Colossus of Akros , you will also have mana to make it monsterous. This said, I think I'll stick to my hydras.
Tingettley, as UrbanAnathema stated, this is more of a budget deck. Kessig Wolf Run is a good card but with this build there is only Bloom Tender and Fauna Shaman who would benefit from it. Rest are either defenders or x mana creatures. I think you have some good suggestions there but they just doesn't fit the idea I have with this deck. We both start from te same place and we have same destination but we just take different roads to get there :)
September 15, 2014 5:35 a.m.
LordGrendel says... #7
This deck really does remind me of UrbanAnathema's. (Only less refined and certainly less expensive.)
Also think nutellaisgreaterthanlife is right. Colossus of Akros would almost certainly be better than Mistcutter Hydra as it would boost the mana from your defenders. In an infinite mana situation its also better, because it can attack and trample rather than being chump blocked. Not seeing a situation where the Hydra would be better unless you really need to stick something early game.
Speaking of which, you also should be able to interact with your opponent's strategy. Other than Spell Burst which can be expensive, you don't have a means to throw your opponent off his game.
September 15, 2014 4:13 p.m.
LordGrendel, I have to disagree on Colossus of Akros boosting for mana. As I already stated, the point when it can be played, you already have infinite mana loop complished so it would automatically come into play as monstrous. And as you said, in some situations you might need to cast something for chump blocking and Mistcutter Hydra can do that if needed. But yeah, colorless indestructible trample is a nice bonus to have. I think I won't replace Mistcutter Hydra s with Colossus of Akros completely, but changing one could be reasonable.
What comes to interacting with opponent's strategy, in most cases I would agree. With this deck I don't think there is that much reason for it though (I admit, I might be wrong). In early game I can easily take some hits if necessary (though, this is a defender deck so it is highly unlikely) and it really doesn't matter if opponent has some creatures played when I swing for "infinite" hits. I'll have to see how this deck does when my friends and I manage to arrange some game night together. But yeah, if there is some budget ideas for interacting more with opponent's strategy, I'm all ears. The biggest problem though is not what to add but what to take out. for my likings I think that this build is pretty solid at the moment.
September 16, 2014 5:11 a.m.
Tingettley says... #9
Something to think about if you do go with the Colossus... Slayers' Stronghold . 22/20 indestructible, trample, haste, vigilance. Seems good to me.
September 16, 2014 9:50 a.m.
LordGrendel says... #10
The idea for Colossus of Akros is for when you DON'T have infinite mana. Modern is literally packed to the brim with removal. Your opponent is going to two for one you constantly when you try to go infinite. Since you're relying on a creature based combo. All it takes is a Go for the Throat on your target for Freed from the Real and then a Surgical Extraction to Freed in the graveyard and the deck is neutered. Sure, you have Spell Burst but that is a three mana counter spell against 2CMC removal spells and that's pretty expensive. You're not going to have that open if you're trying to combo out on T3 or T4. Modern decks run a TON or removal, thus making creature based combos require quite a bit of cheap protection.
With Overgrown Battlement and Axebane Guardian you have at least 6 mana right there by T4. If you have hit all of your land drops thats 8. Now you have an alternative wincon to drop on T4 w/o even being infinite. Since its a Defender when it hits, it boosts your Axebane Overgrown to 3 mana each and you can make it Monstrous for the attack next turn.
You need to be able to have alternative means of winning even if your combo gets stuffed. (Which with the amount of removal in the format...will be happening to you quite a bit.) This is why this is a better option than Mistcutter Hydra
September 16, 2014 2:29 p.m.
LordGrendel says... #11
As for interacting with your opponent:
Personally, I would swap 4x Island for some U/B duals (since this is budget the buddylands would likely be best) so you can access things like Inquisition of Kozilek (budget Thoughtseize ) and Go for the Throat . This would allow you to run fewer Oona's Gatewarden which is pretty lackluster, as far as I can tell only there for the black mana and it being a defender. No need for 4x when its not a combo piece.
There is a lot of X spells here you don't really need. (I'm looking at all of those Exsanguinate s.) Helix Pinnacle is a lot easier of a win with infinite mana...and you're only running 2 yet you're running 6 cards that essentially do the same thing in Exsanguinate and Consume Spirit that require an additional and unnecessary piece to be out.
September 16, 2014 2:40 p.m.
LordGrendel says... #12
You might also want to add land in general. I find in playtests that I don't get Forests in opening hand, and if I don't, I can't play anything worthwhile and can't ramp. 20 lands is fairly low even in mono green ramp decks.
September 16, 2014 2:49 p.m.
LordGrendel, I personally think it's better to stick with two colors than try to go with three. I don't see that much of a reasoning behind Inquisition of Kozilek (nor Thoughtseize )) but that might be because I'm not that big fan of black cards in general. What comes to Oona's Gatewarden , you forgot to mention wither. It can be a very useful tool when defending so I don't see any problems having 4 of them. They give the needed black permanent and also works as chump blocks.
I completely agree on Exsanguinate vs Helix Pinnacle part and I would have changed them already but the reason why I haven't done it is money and the fact that I don't have more Helix Pinnacle s. I'm sure I will change them in some point in the future.
What comes to playtest, I wouldn't make any assumptions. What I have seen, tappedout playtest is so far from random. I always tend to draw same cards in row. And when avg CMC is near 2 there certainly isn't any reason to have more lands.
September 17, 2014 8:47 a.m.
Though, I also don't see why it would be bad to have 6 "essentially same things" when it is the main part of wincon. It just gives you better possibility to draw at least one of them in very early part of the game, making winning faster.
September 17, 2014 8:48 a.m.
But concidering the comments, I think I might try to find some missing cards and change:
OUT:
2x Exsanguinate
IN:
September 17, 2014 8:53 a.m.
LordGrendel says... #16
Essentially the same effect but they cost you an extra mana and in a color you can't produce from any land so it's the same effect but harder to activate. That was the point. Understand the cost issue completely.
Also you're already running six black with the Exsanguinates and Consume Spirit but don't want to run any land that can produce that color.... Not sure that makes a whole lot of sense. You're already a 3 color deck... Just with a mana base that doesn't support three colors.
Regardless, f in your opening hand is super important. Your deck depends on it because if you don't you can't get Axebane or Overgrown out.
10 forests gives you roughly a 1 in 6 chance of drawing a F. since you're drawing 7 cards in opening hand you're likely to see many opening hands w/o a Forest. That seems problematic to me. How do you do when you actually play the deck?
September 17, 2014 11:20 a.m.
LordGrendel says... #18
Also the purpose behind Thoughtseize and it's ilk is to be able to a) See what they have in their hand that can kill your combo (removal or Counterspell) and remove it from their hand so you can combo out safely. It's able to be used as early as T1 so that you can combo out as early as possible without interference which is how your deck wins. :)
September 17, 2014 11:39 a.m.
With 10 forest I have over 74% chance on having a forest in turn 1. With turn 2 it is already 79%.
I might add Hinterland Harbor s or something to the mix in future but as for now, lands will stay as they are.
September 17, 2014 2:25 p.m.
LordGrendel says... #20
Considering how important that first turn is that would likely be a good idea.
September 17, 2014 2:58 p.m.
LordGrendel says... #22
I think budget duals that provide and would be most effective.
September 17, 2014 3:58 p.m.
FrostyTurtle says... #23
Use Primordial Hydra Instead of Mistcutter Hydra . Works better with your theme. Heroes' Bane is another option.
September 17, 2014 4:19 p.m.
FrostyTurtle, once again. Budget is the key word. Of course I would have more Primordial Hydra s in this deck otherwise.
September 18, 2014 3:54 a.m.
tontokowalskie says... #25
I agree with FrostyTurtle, Mistcutter Hydra is cheaper than Primordial Hydra and is probably more effective as a win con as it can't be countered and has haste. It may not get bigger and bigger, but it can easily just kill the turn he is played rather than waiting a turn.
UrbanAnathema says... #1
I don't think anything I said could be quantified as "aggressive" but w/e.
Good luck with your deck and please do have fun.
September 10, 2014 11:01 a.m.