Ok, I want you to understand that I love both of your decks, I dont mill anymore but still play dimir control so go you guys for playing too.

Now for the part your not going to like........ I read your description and I play competitively not just casual with some FNM competitive friends. So that being said I have taken wight and nighthowler sideboard for a mill deck and got top8 sideboarding them in when appropriate and running control mill the rest of the time. I had breaking mainboard and it worked really well.

Now back to my main problem with this thread please this guys question that prompted my first response is a question you have that is keeping you out of even FNM! You are afraid of fast decks, as you should be so lets address that and see if this community of better than just FNM players can help. Its going to take a group effort to make dimir top agian.....and a few cards in sets to come sadly. But as a sleeper archtype it can show up and win something sometimes

And heres some good advice, these decks both yours and this deck have no draw power. I suggest to this deck and I question why you dont and why your friends havnt suggested it. You are a control build who runs blue.....play instant speed draw

@rathamar1 i agree. I would love to see Dimir run the show and usurp Esper and RDW as the top of the echelon. I am currently the only person playing Dimir mill at my local card shop for FNM. I get laughed at a bit but i have fun. I dont really take it all too seriously because i am afraid that is when i will stop having fun with it. I have huge hopes for some good Dimir cards out or the next set or block.

Against super-aggro decks like that, AEtherize also works great as a pseudo-boardwipe. I'm sure it's obvious, but yes I probably will take some damage. But, if I can hang on long enough to get to turn 4-5, then the game really starts turning my way.

From what I've seen, most of the red aggro decks depend on things like Madcap Skills to really push the damage through. That being the case, even just bouncing the enchanted creature can put a damper on their plans. In the majority of games that I've played, I have more control than my opponent has creatures.

As to draw power, I agree that is an area that is lacking. I'm thinking of adding a couple copies of Opportunity or something similar, what do you suggest?

Opportunity is the best instant speed draw blue has right now, However there is Divination with an added Quicken for three cards at 4 cmc. A nice little combo. I use (against advice from others) Pilfered Plans . it is usually right when i need it. It works for me. Unless its looking good control wise you are not going to want to cast it on turn three but it is still a nice cards playing the double duty of mill and draw. Other then that (and i don't think giving up life for it is feasible in this type of deck) you also have Read the Bones and Underworld Connections .

I've been reading all the comments and how you all hate Wight of Precinct Six and Breaking / Entering , reading suggestions and although as fast as my deck is with both of 'said' cards in there, I almost feel you are correct about playing against RDW since I haven't played against that deck yet with my Dimir. But possibly a decent sideboard card could be Reap Intellect possibly? Although it is a mana-hungry spell, I think it is decent enough to side against something like Aggro, RDW, Token's, possibly control. Might possibly consider Liliana of the Dark Realms ? I think she is definitely underplayed in my opinion, if you use her -3 and have plenty of swamps, she can kill indestructible gods along with Boros Reckoner since it isn't damage, also she is a good deck thinner if you need it for that. Just some thoughts.

Here's a link to my Dimir deck in case you'd like to see it. Get back in the Mill and make me some bread.

Problem with Divination + Quicken is you lose your card advantage right there. You use two cards to draw two cards. Opportunity seems to be the best option, but I'm not sure what to cut to make room. Suggestions?

dont forget about Inspiration

correction you would use two to draw three but i get what you are saying.

Just a thought: as you're running Mind Grind as a 1 of..... would you be better served changing that to a Traumatize as a 1 of...

Also it's obviously a meta call, but maybe more counter spells in your sideboard; seems you have battlefield control pretty sured up in the mainboard, against a control deck, subbing them out for more counters might not be a bad way to go. But I see you are running a playset of Negate so maybe ignore that suggestion.

One last thing - maybe Dimir Charm over devour flesh in the main board - gives you a bit more versatility - kill an early drop - counter a sorcery, of which there is a bunch in standard currently, or set up your opponents next draw (brilliant after they scry) or even your own next draw.

Nice deck man +1

Also I'm a bit late to the Wight of Precinct Six & Breaking discussion, but I'll add my thoughts to those added by DimirQueen, Quadsimotto and rathamar1.

I think it's more about which way you want to go with your dimir deck; if you want to go control and mill as a primary win con then maybe Wight is too slow and doesn't help against fast aggro, but it does have its uses.

If you plan to mill a little, pump creatures, then bash away then it's a decent way to go about things (it was much stronger pre rotation when you had Thought Scour and Jace's Phantasm as well.

But last friday, I had multiple turn 4-6 wins because Wight was hitting for 8-12 damage. And yes it was in a competitive environment.

I not saying people are wrong, I see both sides of the argument, but it is situational , how you want to play your deck and what your local meta game is.

Meta can be very different depending on where you go, but there is a "usual" or standard meta that you can see influenced by what's going big at Pro Tour. IMO, Midrange mill has no place in standard meta; maybe after this next set we will, but the Wight is not enough to take you there. Fast decks are BIG, but standard IS trying to slow it down, that much is obvious. Keep in mind that the Wight can only block one creature, and he also doesn't have flying so he's useless against Stormbreath Dragon and dies to everything because he has protection from nothing. My wight barely had enough time to build up before he was killed off, exiled, or I had to use him as a chump blocker. When the meta is successfully slowed down, midrange mill will have a much better chance at being competitive across the board, not just at certain FNMs. We lost our BIG hitter, Jace's Phantasm , and I'm thinking we're going to get some cards in the next set to make midrange more competitive. I actually hate playing control, so I'm looking forward to that.

I think a lot of people try to keep their games hitting the same way over and over again to be reliable, and the Wight is just too big of a gamble for me personally when you can have however many control cards in there instead. And I think that "gamble" is what makes the Wight a weak, unusable card. Elixir of Immortality slays him and you're left with no defense and no hitters.

Jace's Phantasm is sorely missed. the "ten cards in graveyard clause" is inherantly better than "+1 +1 for each creature in your opponents graveyard". Jace's phantasm was mainboard....U for what WILL be a 5/5 flier uhhhh ya. I would like to point out that the dimir control builds run fairly well agianst the meta as a whole. Esper control and azorius control seem to fall victim every time to generally the mainboard, midrange falls victim but aggro seems always a hard matchup, we as dimir control players run around 20-24 responses to creatures or otherwise, some more time dependant than others and these aggro powerhouses are running 28-32 creatures. Kinda obvious math to me especially when their creatures arent time dependant like having mana open for a counterspell, or bouncing the right threat, or even countering the right spell.

So if that has no argument to be made agianst it and I assume it doesnt let me continue and say 30 creatures in a deck that has at most 50 cards left in it makes the odds pretty good that you will hit 4 or 5 creatures by tugging 8 cards. So as Ive been trying to get through to you wight is a good choice for sideboard and breaking good for main (reference reason for breaking being good in earlier post). You dont even need to run breaking considering you kill creature T2, kill creature T3, drop wight T4 and kill creature, he then is a kill creature on a stick out of the range of burn so hes going to kill something if it comes across being a 4/4. It is no jace's phantasm but also please refrain from comparing it to stormbreath dragon, save a counterspell for him or have a doomblade waiting.

And as for them killing wight before he can build up...the matches in which he gets sideboarded in generally dont have much kill. If its mono red get him past 4 and hes good save for you blocking and then them burning him so 6/6 should suffice. If its Rakdos aggro dreadbore is your big threat and yes please kill my wight using a dreadbore, one less response for my walkers. Mono white has that exile target attacking or blocking stuff so deal with that accordingly but also remember that a topdeck wight after a resolved wight and some dead creatures is nice especially if you run nighthowler in the side as well.

So im going to finish this by saying you make your sideboard to deal with the hard matchups or make your deck more perfect for each matchup. When there is a clear threat to your archtype then gun for it, save 4 slots for like negate and 2 for notion theif to deal with the rest but 9 can look something like this

4x Wight of Precinct Six 3x Ultimate Price 2x Nighthowler

that is pretty strong and puts you over that 20-24 and 28-32 math. giving you a much better stance.

And I just need to ask, how long has elixir of immortality been slaying the hopes and dreams of mill players? about 4 years running. It has been making making mill driven creatures fodder since m11

Just read your comment rathamar1 about not having any draw power.

Jace, Memory Adeptwhatamireading.jpg

4 Wights is WAY too much, even if you are making the decision to put him in. Right now, close to half the "popular" meta is Esper, close to half being aggro, whether G/W, RDW or Gruul. Wight can't do anything against Esper at all, really, and he doesn't build up fast enough to be effective against GOOD aggro. I just... I just don't see why you would still use him. All the mill decks I've seen take top 4 hated Wight after rotation and swear by not using him. I continued to use him for a while before agreeing. I don't see why you would use 4 when you could be running 3 Aberrations and kill/bounce spells instead. It's a more reliable strategy.

I think the problem here is the difference between Timmys and Johnnys/Spikes. I don't want to have a 15/15 out on the field that's doing jack nothing for me because I have to wait and block my opponent's big creatures, which is what Timmys love to do. A big Wight means nothing if you don't have enough backing you to swing, unless you're playing less than great decks. I mean, if your opponents all have meh decks, then more power to you. But from all the tourneys I've been to, I've never seen a midrange mill deck do even decently post rotation.

your a democrat arent you? Do not ignore key parts of the comments and address the parts that you want too, I suggest in no way using a midrange mill deck but having access to the wight's for JUST the super aggro matchup is really powerfull! You dont need the lionshare of the sideboard for literally everything else in the meta, the deck does just fine I know cause I run one.

WIGHT IS FOR SIDEBOARD ONLY AND TO BE PUT IN AGIANST SUPER AGGRO BECAUSE YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING AGIANST IT AND HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO SIDEBOARD IN THAN THAT. I IMPLORE YOU TO SUGGEST A BETTER SOLUTION INSTEAD OF JUST SAYING WIGHT IS INHERANTLY BAD. The owner of this thread asked for help and I tried to do just that and all you have done is argue how bad it is. Now for the last time I will ask you too offer a better solution to the problem that all dimir mill has and that is super aggro. If you have no better solution then I suggest try running him in the side and board him if you are agianst a deck you have no answers for such as super aggro.

This is my last attempt to get you to look at this logically, wight is not a mainboard card and you dont need breaking to make him work when sideboarded in because of the amount of kill the mainboard possesses. So please if there is a better solution then say it or keep your mouth shut when someone tries to help.

Thank you

rathamar1 I think I at least understand what you are saying, just trying to see it in the context of a game. For argument's sake, let's use the sideboard you suggested earlier of:

4x Negate 4x Wight of Precinct Six 3x Ultimate Price 2x Nighthowler 2x Notion Thief

In a match against a super-aggro deck like RDW, how would you sideboard for the second game using the mainboard deck I have above? I can see how some of the cards you suggest could be answers, but I don't think I'm understanding it in practice. Thanks.

I...I did. I did suggest a better way. O_o Lose the Wights for more control. Control your opponent, taking the necessary damage until turn 5, 6, 7, Jace, Aberration, Overloaded Cyclonic Rift . It really is that easy~

I don't know what world it is that you think Wights do well against super aggro O_o That's...that's the worst. He isn't fast enough to stop early hitters. You have to take a step back and think about what you're saying. When are you planning to mill? Turn 2? OK, then Wight turn three. Wight can only block 1 creature. Let's look at a RDW deck I know very well. Your opponent has Rakdos Cackler out turn 1, 2/2 that can't block. Ash Zealot, 2/2 first strike with haste. Boros Reckoner, can grant first strike and if it takes damage, it can redirect it to you OR other creatures. Turn 4, Burning Tree Emissary into Fanatic of Mogis 4/2, deals NINE DAMAGE TO THE FACE. And your wight is going to stop this...how? Especially because, guess what? When you try to swing with your Wight, and he blocks with the Boros Reckoner, that's however many the Wight is dealt to you. Your wight is a 10? 10 damage to you. 10 damage to any creature. Game over. Because you wanted to play Breaking and the Wight to have a biggie out and not control your opponent. GG.

You know what does work? Away . Far . Devour Flesh . Cyclonic Rift . Hero's Downfall . Doom Blade .Ultimate Price . Essence Scatter . And oh God, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver , because nothing feels better than taking a Stormbreath Dragon and seeing the look on your opponent's face.

And btw, what you're describing is midrange. Maybe you don't know what midrange is? O_o

https://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/396

"In essence, Midrange is the strategy of playing fatties and the means to make them most effective." That would be the Wight, my friend.

My boyfriend places top everywhere with his stupid RDW deck, and I play that along with top 4 Gruul aggro and Green Deck Smashes casually when FNM isn't going on. It's horrifying. He's the one who helped me redo my mill deck, and trust me when I say he's right about this one.

Agreeance with DimirQueen. You want all the kill spells you can handle. Once aggro runs out of gas, the game is pretty much yours. The Wight would be OK against aggro, but only once you stabilize. If you can't stabilize, then he would just be OK, and then you have more relevant threats, like the Aberration and Aetherling.

T1 your not on the play and RDW plays firedrinker pass turn, you play land pass turnT2 RDW plays ash zealot swings for 4, you play land and bounce/kill firedrinkerT3 RDW plays legion loyalist and ash zealot (best case) swings for 5, You kill loyalistT4 both hands are getting thin RDW plays boros reckoner (or swap T3 with T4) swings
for whatever they swing for depending on how they actually drop things, You kill Reckoner and drop wight being hopefully a 4/4 having taken 13+ but only 2 zealots left and if they swing they lose one and have 5 cards to use in T5 while you have 6 T5 so probably more control left.

The problem I see with adding control like counters and bounce is that you need the counter when they cast the card you dont want to see and the bounce only delays. Ashiok buys you time cause they spend time killing her, If you kill things as you get up to play wight you have a kill on a stick in the form of wight.

Adding more control doesnt fix the matchup, shores it up a bit but only in the number of expendable cards you have to use and Having kill on a stick makes people hesitant on swinging, not necassarily keeping them from doing so but RDW swings if no board presence on the other side no thought needed there. And FYI with that much haste bounce is alot less threatening.

Mmcfarlan As for your question I pose this in response, T3 counter is not good enough considering it eats up all you mana for the turn so counter agianst RDW is only good for burn so I would say take 2 psychic strike 3x dissolve 3x cyclonic rift because like I said earlier bounce is not that scary to RDW Especially if its boss sligh and it has Foundry Street Denizen and your 1x mind grind and put in the ultimate prices for the more feed wight, nighthowler and wight simple run ALOT of kill and you will stand the best chance possible.

Now game plan without that sideboard and adding more control is stall....stall....stall....drop a P/W let it get hit hopefully not for lethal (cause casting Stormbreath is a longshot AFTER the chance of exiling it) so ashiok gets to keep like 2 loyalty at best and you are probably facing a topdeck burn for the loss in the face. Or you play what? there is not much you can do agianst that fast of a deck, thats why a 40 dollar deck is on the radar, because its too fast for the meta to handle. And as for the meta slowing down talk to me after the rescend firedrinker satyr.......really a 2/1 for R with pump? uhhhh ya spike jester........3/1 haste for B/R........Ash zealot......Reprinted chandra's phoenix...... Shock........RDW is as big as ever.

First, only the mono-red blitz decks play legion loyalist. And he only deals 1 damage. In this magical Christmas land you describe, he would have 2 zealots and a Legion Loyalist on the field. Why kill the 1/1 when you can kill the 2/2. 2 is more than 1.

And if you're looking to drop a creature on turn 4, why not just put in a Desecration Demon? Or turn 3 you could drop a Wall of Frost. What does RDW have that can stop a wall of frost? Chandra Pyromaster. That's about it. And they only run 1 maybe 2 in the deck. Or even better: Omenspeaker. Only 2 mana, leaves the option open for your 2 spell turn of kill spell and creature. Blocks effectively everything in Boss Sligh and most things in RDW. And you get to scry 2. Magic.

Also, I don't know why you think bounce isn't good against Boss Sligh. Boss Sligh runs tons of 1-shot and enchants that a bounce spell will send straight to the graveyard.

Agreed that 3 mana counters are pretty awful against RDW. Stormbreath is why you hold Ultimate Price. If they play Stormbreath, you keep Ultimate Price up if they are on 4 mana.

RDW is a bad matchup for control unless it has lifegain. That's where the Crypt incursions come in. And Crypt Incursion directly contradicts the Wight, and makes him a 1/1 for 2, essentially a dead draw.

Besides, if you worry about seeing a lot of boss sligh, just throw in some Ratchet bombs. Drop it turn 2. Tick it up. Blow up everything they've ever loved.

Basically, Wight is just an awful, awful choice. He was not designed to block RDW.

ok first off in that magical christmas land i describe i kill the legion loyalist because of the battalion simple as that. crypt incursion is good and wall of frost I think falls a bit short as does frost breath cause I tried that. Omenspeaker is already in there but always gets burnt.

You got a point about boss sligh's 1-shots, but the creature still comes back out and probably with haste. The thing I really like about wight is it adds a win con so you can keep them from not playing anything for a few turns and wait for you to tap out and then handgasm onto the field for game.

Not in love with wight but wanted someone to actually try to help this guy find his way around RDW. You have helped and I appreciate that

I think as Dimir mages, we're currently forced into control / mill because of cards we have available, and are most problematic match up is super aggro.

So mmcfarlin my apologies for ruining your deck thread, but would we all not be better trying to help eachother out with what we should have mainboard or sideboard for our own collective weak area's.

DimirQueen , rathamar1, as for better alternatives; I think we said AEtherize but that only stalls them because they just lay out, what we put back into their hands.

How do people feel about Ratchet Bomb - side or is it worth a spot in main???

Sorry to PwnusPoints i missed that you had also suggested Ratchet Bomb in your post.

I know it's been talked about, but Breaking is really good for mill. Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker is an absolute beast even though he's 5 mana. Duskmantle Guildmage is big late game, and Tome Scour is big too.

You could also use use Lazav, Dimir Mastermind to steal your opponents win cons