Hey Epoch, what're your thoughts on the new Mystic Confluence?

@Megalomania: Necropotence is certainly worth running. If you're concerned about the political aspect, you may just have to find more advantageous times to play it (or anticipate the shift of focus and have protection ready). I don't generally have issues, but I also don't play very often.

@Bovine073: The only transmute card in the deck is Tolaria West, which can only find 0-drops. I can't transmute for Blue Sun's Zenith.

@enpc: If you're running Jace's Ingenuity, then Mystic Confluence is strictly better. However, I don't think it's particularly worthwhile. It's much like Cryptic Command in that it costs a lot of mana and doesn't really do anything great for that investment. I'd rather pay half the cost and get the effect that's most relevant so I can actually afford to fit it into my game plan.

Epochalyptik, sorry, it was a poorly phrased question.

Would you think about adding Dimir Machinations or Drift of Phantasms to tutor your Blue Sun's Zenith?

I get the feeling that the transmute cards don't do enough on their own to be worthy of running. A straight up tutor would be a better replacement for the transmute cards and the dexklist is tight as it is.

No. Those cards don't do anything on their own, and they're very limited in application. I'd rather run Grim Tutor for that mana; it's more flexible.

Additionally, tutoring for Blue Sun's Zenith isn't really the issue. If you combo, you probably have Rune-Scarred Demon to grab your whole deck. Tutoring for Tooth and Nail or Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is typically the play to make.

Mystical Teachings always seems like a weird choice to me, can you convince me otherwise? A four mana, conditional tutor always seems just like a worse Diabolic Tutor which is almost always a subpar choice.

@NateJH: Mystical Teachings isn't the best card in the deck, but it has its uses. It can find Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir (and once Teferi is out, it can be flashed back to find any other creature in the deck), which is essential to enabling a protected combo. If you can Tooth and Nail to put Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir onto the table, the rest of your turn becomes uncounterable and your opponents can't interact with your combo.

Flashback means that Mystical Teachings can be used to find Blue Sun's Zenith if the combo wasn't able to grab Rune-Scarred Demon. You can EOT Mystical Teachings for countermagic, use Tooth and Nail to find and play both halves of the infinite mana combo, and use Mystical Teachings to find the win condition.

Additionally, it can be used to find a free counterspell (or really any counterspell).

Its major drawback is, of course, the high mana cost.

Have you ever considered running Laboratory Maniac so that you can win at instant speed without many complicated combos?

I've never been particularly fond of Cephalid Coliseum. I feel like if you're forced to crack it to dig for something, you're probably doing rather poorly as is. I think I'd rather run Minamo, School at Water's Edge if I needed blue mana. The interaction with the cradle can be pretty nice. Mana Confluence could fix better, Yavimaya Hollow could help protect utility creatures or serve as ways to mitigate damage via blocks. Tectonic Edge is yet another decent addition because stuff like Cavern of Souls can be annoying.

Consider running Delay over Memory Lapse. It means you don't have to deal with the problem spell for two turns longer than Memory Lapse.

Also maybe consider Notion Thief over Consecrated Sphinx. I know that the Sphinx is powerful, but Notion Thief has flash, costs less, and denies your opponents their cards in addition to giving you cards.

I have no idea on how I would improve on the deck, but I do know how I would try and disrupt it. I'd play some of the red cards you already listed, a Boil or two (Tsunami)), with my green "stay out of my turn" cards.

• City of Solitude
• Dosan the Falling Leaf

Basically I would take my Maelstrom Wanderer deck, edit it a bit, and pick you first. Assuming the faster control decks were not also at the table. I would have to, quite specifically, hate you out of the game and then move on to the next guy.

Your weak point, though, is your land base. IF that gets "turned off" or blown up, you are screwed.

See

• Mana Web
• War's Toll
• Stoneshaker Shaman

So, I could build a mono-red deck (wold be Zo-Zu the Punisher) that's entire point was JUST to end combo/control.

• Mana Barbs

etc

Or we run RG with Ruric Thar, the Unbowed. Just depends.

It's worked in my meta quite well, to the point where people are now afraid to counter my spells and mess with my turn. :p

have you ever tried out/considered Chord of Calling? it has a lot of juicy targets and could potentially be cast with convoke under a Blood Moon at instant speed to deal with it (i.e get venser to bounce it eot) to combo off on your turn. just a thought, based on this list and the primer i know every card is carefully considered so curious if this was ever a consideration as i didn't notice it in the omissions section.

I'm not familiar with EDH, but another viable win-con for your infinite combo would be Sands of Delirium... it also acts as a permanent mana sink. And in the late game, even without the combo, this can hurt a lot.
You have counterspells amongst your cards, so I know artifact hate won't be a serious issue.
Cheers!

Phyrexian Tower can get you that extra mana you need to win on the spot, or help you keep a blue open to counter a counterspell. Pretty situational, but it can turn a tapped Birds of Paradise into a Dark Ritual and get those pieces/Tooth and Nail out one turn sooner, or burn up some other creature that's done its job like Eternal Witness or Snapcaster Mage. Double black is also kind of a big deal when you're running Necropotence in 3 color.

How necessary is it to run Reliquary Tower in a deck as tight as this? It seems like if you had 7 cards you didn't want to discard you'd probably have a winning hand. If it's important I don't know if your deck can take many more colorless sources, which sorta spoils Tower.

Epochalyptik: i do not have a very high knowledge of EDH, but is can suggest some stuff.

Command Beacon: damia is expensive, and will get even more expensive when she is removed.

Life from the Loam: serves the same purpose as Crucible of Worlds.

True-Name Nemesis: just an amazing card.

Mystic Confluence and Cryptic Command: just great for control.

Skullwinder and Regrowth serves same function as Eternal Witness.

Worldly Tutor: to help fetch win-cons.

ya hope i was able to help a bit...

@CheeseBro

Damia is rarely cast. You don't really need that. Adding in lands that tap for have got to have high utility. Crucible of Worlds is far superior to Life from the Loam since it's a one-time investment. The day this deck wins via damage will be one to remember. The nemesis is a pretty bad card in EDH, generally speaking at least. Almost no competitive blue EDH deck can afford to run Mystic Confluence or Cryptic Command. The high saturation and converted mana costs make those pretty terrible choices. Cryptic doesn't even make top 15 best counters in EDH easily. You don't want to help opponents, so Skullwinder is pretty meh and Regrowth is harder to tutor for than Eternal Witness. Worldly Tutor is a maybe at best. I think if the deck needed an additional tutor, Diabolic Intent would make the cut before that one. Sorry to shoot down the requests, but those generally aren't good enough for a deck that's pushing as much power as this one.

I'm happy to see so many responses!

@Kryzis: I'm not really sure that Laboratory Maniac is meaningfully less complicated than the deck's current win conditions. It seems like it would take the same amount of effort to combo out and then tutor for/play Laboratory Maniac as opposed to Blue Sun's Zenith, which is also an instant win. In fact, you still need Blue Sun's Zenith to get the win; Laboratory Maniac becomes an extra card in the deck, but it doesn't do anything on its own.

@TheDevicer: I moved your comment from the deck help thread to here. I think that's a (mostly) fair assessment; I added Cephalid Coliseum mostly as a buffer to provide extra options when I'm in the mid or late game. It has its uses, but it isn't highly impressive.

Minamo, School at Water's Edge is an interesting pick, and it would work with Gaea's Cradle (as you point out) and Boseiju, Who Shelters All.

Mana Confluence (and, for that matter, City of Brass) are not in the deck because I can't use them to combo; the damage/life loss would kill me before I had any serviceable win conditions. I feel comfortable enough with the fixing that I'm not worried about losing out on the omnicolor production.

Yavimaya Hollow is, like Minamo, School at Water's Edge, interesting. I'll add both to the maybeboard for now. My concern is that Yavimaya Hollow would be less impactful than the other options. It's good for protecting Damia (or a combo piece) from a kill spell, but it isn't really any more effective than a counterspell in that regard. There's something to be said for using an ability instead of a spell to do the same job, I suppose.

Tectonic Edge is surpassed by Wasteland and Strip Mine, both of which are already in the deck, and I hesitate to say that another colorless-only land would be justifiable for redundancy on what is, relatively speaking, an infrequently relevant effect.

@lemmingllama: I originally had both, but I chose to keep Memory Lapse because it screws the opponent's draw for the next turn (they have to re-draw a resource they already had instead of some new resource). It's debatable whether that makes it better than suspending the card for three turns. Back before the tuck change at the beginning of the year, Memory Lapse's ability to more reliably take commanders out of action for a period of time was what ensure it a spot in the deck, but now Memory Lapse and Delay are merely regular counterspells against commanders.

I'm interested in getting some further discussion going about these two cards.

Notion Thief is an alright card, and I suppose it is, in some situations, better than Consecrated Sphinx (ignoring the corner case where, if an opponent has Consecrated Sphinx and I have Notion Thief, I lose the game). What I don't like is that it isn't really a guaranteed draw in the same way that Consecrated Sphinx is. What I do like is the denial, lower cost, and flash. I could see sideboarding it and making meta-dependent calls with it, for sure. But as a member of the 99, I think it's pending further discussion. Added to the maybeboard.

@DudelRok: I do acknowledge that the heavily biased land base is one of the deck's largest and least remediable weak spots. Thankfully, dedicated nonbasic hate tends to be infrequent in most tournament environments because it's also very hindering to many of the decks that could play it. Usually, it's monocolored or bicolored decks running those cards because they can more easily afford to hit themselves.

I think the answer to land hate is, unfortunately, limited to play choices (leaving enough countermagic up, anticipating threats, not overextending, etc.) because the benefit of having a powerful and reliable land base is much higher than the practical potential for that choice to backfire. But in saying that, I'm certainly open to suggestions regarding how to defend it.

@someguy5587: Chord of Calling has come up at various points in this deck's history, and my typical response to it has been that it isn't more effective (in most cases) than Green Sun's Zenith. Because the number of utility creatures I have in play varies fairly widely from game to game, the cost isn't always convokeable, which makes it sort of unappealing. The possibility that it could be cast for free isn't consistently achievable enough to me.

@Busse: Sands of Delirium isn't a great choice for this deck. Mana sinks are more appropriate in casual and semicompetitive environments where you can afford to both play the sink and put mana into it over time. In competitive environments, you need to run very efficient cards and generally don't have a ton left over to put into cumulative effects. On top of that, Sands of Delirium only hits one player at a time, and its effect is almost entirely irrelevant unless you can completely mill someone (mill is not a viable utility strategy). Sands of Delirium is also not an actual win; you need to force or wait for someone to draw a card.

@FancyTuesday: Phyrexian Tower would be in the deck already if it could tap for instead of . Because it can't, I'm not sure that I can justify the occasional ramp if I have to further tax the fixing in the deck. I'm open to further arguments, though.

Reliquary Tower is very useful. Although there won't always be situations in which I have more than seven cards and don't want to discard (and even then, you don't ever really want to give up additional resources), the situations in which you can get it out with Necropotence or other draw effects are very, very powerful. I can justify the colorless-only production in that context.

Just saw that you put Ghostly Flicker in the mainboard. You wont regret it. I used it the other day to combo through a Linvala, Keeper of Silence which would normally shut down the main combo of the deck. It's just solid.

Now that you've put Gaea's Cradle in the deck, what're your thoughts on Kiora's Follower? While it is slower than Arbor Elf, it untaps cradle, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Grim Monolith all for extra value. And it also untaps Deathrite Shaman which can be incredibly powerful.

@CheeseBro: Damia isn't really the kind of commander you need every game or the kind you would want to recast if you had other options. Command Beacon isn't a great option in that context.

Life from the Loam was cut from the deck a while ago; it doesn't really offer much in terms of power. In theory, it has some uses, but it doesn't actually do much for the deck and isn't really the kind of card you want to spend resources to cast.

True-Name Nemesis is actually a very bad card in Commander. This deck doesn't care about combat; all of the cards need to have some utility ability in order to make the cut. Like Tarmogoyf, True-Name Nemesis may be good in 60-card, but it doesn't have impact in Commander.

Cryptic Command was cut a while ago because it's too expensive and difficult to cast as a control spell. Likewise, Mystic Confluence is expensive and without much to recommend it. I'd rather play a spell that does one thing well and for a low cost than another that serves as an expensive multitool.

Skullwinder is risky. If I absolutely needed another recursion card, I'd sooner take Regrowth or something else. I'd rather not give an opponent a counterspell to recounter the card I'm recurring. But between Eternal Witness, Snapcaster Mage, and Yawgmoth's Will, I think the recursion suite is acceptably powerful.

Worldly Tutor has come up intermittently in discussion. I think I would rather run Diabolic Intent, which has better functionality and moves the card directly to my hand (albeit at a higher cost). But for those building this deck on a budget, Worldly Tutor is a perfectly serviceable alternative to something like Imperial Seal.

Yeah the colorless only is kind of a killer when you're already stretched kinda thin, and Reliquary Tower is the only thing I can see that it might slot in for because of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love me some Reliquary Tower, but in my games I can afford to shut off my brain and I don't like having to weigh the value of a card I might have to pitch. This deck is deigned with a very clear goal, and depending on where you are on your way to that goal you know exactly what you need to get there. With that sort of... purity of purpose and playing at that level I can't imagine you'd have trouble carving yourself a winning hand with 7 cards.

Yeah it's a beaut when you Necropotence for 20, but once you've dug that far do you think you aren't going to see Tooth and Nail or some means to fetch it? You might need a slot or two for pieces, two or three counters, and all bets are off if you hit Yawgmoth's Will. It's not as big a deal for the other draws like Consecrated Sphinx or Blue Sun's Zenith since they'll always be putting cards into your hand at the beginning of your turn, allowing you to plan around what you will and won't have more carefully.

It is awfully hard to argue against though. Reliquary Tower's great, you always want to have those extra resources and getting that functionality out of a land slot is just the bee's knees, I just wonder how much of its function is truly necessary at this level of competitiveness. You would know much better than I.

If you're going for the win every creature in the deck outside the combo pieces and Teferi are fair to burn. Deathrite Shaman, Arbor Elf, Oracle of Mul Daya, Damia, Sage of Stone, they could all be the extra that lets you float a for Dispel when you're ready to drop that Tooth and Nail or that Palinchron. The edge might be minor, but if there was ever a time where that extra out of Ancient Tomb is what gave you the game a turn early it should really be worth considering.

No idea what else I'd consider cutting for it though, and it's hard to pit it against Reliquary Tower. I dunno. Do you need multiple Strip Mines with this much tutoring, bouncing, digging, and Crucible of Worlds?

I know it is another colorless land and that can cause issues for you, but Alchemist's Refuge is an incredibly helpful card in numerous decks for me. The ability to flash in artifacts, tutor, or drop your utility creatures the turn before you need them can be game changing at least at the semi-competetive level. Autumn's Veil can help you get your combo off without too much trouble...though the only other purpose it would serve is in stage II for you...so it is a little narrow. Delay is not a permanent answer, however, it should normally give you ample time to combo off. So that may be beneficial. Disdainful Stroke allows you to hit almost every relevant combo piece in the majority of decks, and will virtually never go unused. Muddle the Mixture is a multipurpose spell that would allow you to counter a troublesome spell of necessary, but would also allow you to dig up a necessary tutor, or hard counter. I will admit, my highest level of play is at the semi-competetive level, and I pilot Vela the Night-Clad. So take my recommendations with a grain of salt. Best of luck.

so this is way outta left field, what do you think of Pygmy Hippo for the deck and in general?

@FancyTuesday: I suppose if you're looking at the optimal conditions, Reliquary Tower isn't necessary. But only in the optimal conditions. Often times, Stage II takes a few turns due to having to focus multiple opponents or having to plan around a rapidly-developing board state. In those cases, Reliquary Tower is absolutely advantageous.

There's certainly legitimacy to the idea that quality of resources is one of the most important factors, but in scenarios where you're fighting to overcome three competent and well-equipped opponents, quantity plays a role as well. The more lands you can dump through Exploration effects and the more countermagic you can hold in hand, the better-positioned you are to deal with the increased number of threats in the multiplayer environment. And in that context, I can't justify cutting Reliquary Tower.

As for Strip Mine and Wasteland, I find the redundancy constructive. Having access to a land killer that much more often is helpful because I don't often go out of my way to tutor for one. They're not absolutely vital to every game, but they add a utility to the deck.

Whether it's more constructive than Phyrexian Tower, I'm not sure. The land base in this deck is already very tight, so slotting things in and out for tests is an exercise in painful decisions.

@Scytec: I did originally run Alchemist's Refuge, but I found it to be less impactful than the other utility lands. It's good in theory, but it wasn't relevant enough often enough to justify inclusion over some of the other contenders. I look at it as having to play a turn three lands down in order to flash cast, and that's pretty risky in practice.

Autumn's Veil is an interesting idea. The fact that it costs only does make it appealing, but it also doesn't stop white's exile instants (which are a fair threat against creature-based combos). I do wonder whether it would be better to run another counterspell instead, but there are certainly situations in which Autumn's Veil might be more economical. I'd like to continue the discussion on this one.

Regarding Disdainful Stroke, I find that the distinction must often be made not at what is possible to counter, but at what is practical to counter. Any limited-scope counterspell theoretically has applications, but I'm worried most about anti-instant counterspells and general-purpose counterspells because of the way most games unfold, and Disdainful Stroke doesn't comfortably fit into either of those camps.

Muddle the Mixture, which is currently in the maybeboard, has been on my list of considerations for some time. I do quite like it in theory, but I just haven't gotten to test it yet.

@knight611: Pygmy Hippo doesn't seem very powerful. In most cases, a competent opponent who has no blocking options will simply tap out in the declare attackers step so I don't get the mana. While this does ensure that that player won't be using those lands for anything in the coming turn cycle, there are still two other opponents, and there are also prevalent free spells like Force of Will. Further, there are often utility creatures in play by the time Pygmy Hippo could attack, and an opponent who desperately wants his or her mana available in the coming turn cycle could chump block.

I apologize about the repeat recommendation regarding Muddle the Mixture. I checked your MB, but I didn't think to check the maybe board.

Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares are the main exile effects you're talking about correct? These are serious contenders, and something a standard counterspell can hit for you anyway. Given the prevalence of blue and black in the competitive meta, it seems as though preventing your opponents from targeting you with either of these two colors would be incredibly potent, and allow you the ability to save your counter suite for that troublesome path or swords effect.

What are your primary reservations regarding the spell, and what spells could you see it replacing in your list?